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PS4 is quite the engineering marvel

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+Audioboxer    2,874

Yes it is that far off, because Xbox and PS4 both have the exact SAME hardware.

 

Not exactly, the PS4 GPU and memory is different (faster from hardware specs).

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JonnyLH    342

Not exactly, the PS4 GPU and memory is different (faster from hardware specs).

Faster <> Better. Especially when it comes to GDDR. It's not meant to be general purpose RAM, and it works very differently.

 

Just curious, I thought all of the XBox One demos were confirmed to be running on a PC where they not? So are there really technically any demos of XBox one games actually running on a One? 

 

You are all trying to tell me that you honestly think when looking at the specs of both consoles side by side that if one is capable of doing 60 FPS the other is not? Really? The specs are nearly identical. It is honestly crazy to think the games will not be. Somehow you all have yourselves convinced that the custom cpu of the One is so much more powerful than the PS4's CPU, which from my understanding is the same AMD architecture? Seriously???

You know better than that.

 

Its not all down to the specs, but more the architecture of how the software works with the hardware. Something MS know how to do very very well. Especially when MS have special ERAM for frame buffering, that will make a hell of a difference. 

Are you kidding me? 

The PS4 doesn't use DirectX haha. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

Sony: "Hi Microsoft, can we license and use DirectX for the PS4 and custom build it to work well with our low level API's and Kernals?"

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+Audioboxer    2,874

Faster <> Better. Especially when it comes to GDDR. It's not meant to be general purpose RAM, and it works very differently.

 

You know better than that.

 

Its not all down to the specs, but more the architecture of how the software works with the hardware. Something MS know how to do very very well. Especially when MS have special ERAM for frame buffering, that will make a hell of a difference. 

Are you kidding me? 

The PS4 doesn't use DirectX haha. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

Sony: "Hi Microsoft, can we license and use DirectX for the PS4 and custom build it to work well with our low level API's and Kernals?"

 

At a presentation at the Game Developers Conference today, Sony Senior Staff Engineer Chris Norden went into greater technical detail on some of the PlayStation 4's underlying hardware, including the PS4 Eye depth sensing camera. While all of this information is not finalized and subject to change, the presentation gave us our deepest look yet at Sony's next generation of console hardware.

 

Norden started by focusing on the chips, including the 64-bit x86 CPU that he stressed provided low power consumption and heat. The eight cores are capable of running eight hardware threads, with each core using a 32KiB L1 I-cache and D-cache, and each four-core group sharing 2MiB of L2 Cache. The processor will be able to handle things like atomics, threads, fibers, and ULTs, with out-of-order execution and advanced ISA.

 

Sony is building its CPU on what it's calling an extended DirectX 11.1+ feature set, including extra debugging support that is not available on PC platforms. This system will also give developers more direct access to the shader pipeline than they had on the PS3 or through DirectX itself. "This is access you're not used to getting on the PC, and as a result you can do a lot more cool things and have a lot more access to the power of the system," Norden said. A low-level API will also let coders talk directly with the hardware in a way that's "much lower-level than DirectX and OpenGL," but still not quite at the driver level.

 

The system is also set up to run graphics and computational code synchronously, without suspending one to run the other. Norden says that Sony has worked to carefully balance the two processors to provide maximum graphics power of 1.843 teraFLOPS at an 800Mhz clock speed while still leaving enough room for computational tasks. The GPU will also be able to run arbitrary code, allowing developers to run hundreds or thousands of parallelized tasks with full access to the system's 8GB of unified memory.

 

Speaking of memory, Norden hyped up the 8GB of GDDR5 RAM in the system as the type of memory that's currently usually found only on high-end graphics cards. Calling the RAM "expensive" and "exotic," Norden stressed that you "can't buy this [RAM] for 50 bucks... that's why high-end graphics cards cost as much as they do." The 176 gigabytes of total bandwidth provided by that GDDR5 RAM are much more efficient than the 40 gigabytes a second provided by the standard DDR3 RAM used in most current computer systems. The unified address space should also cause fewer headaches for developers than the mixed architecture of the PS3, Norden said.

The development environment coders will use is based on Windows 7 and fully integrated with Visual Studio 2010 and 2012, allowing developers to debug PS4 code just like PC code. Tools will include C and C++ front ends that are largely compatible with most standard compilers, and various binary utilities, including CPU and GPU analyzers that can run in real time alongside games. Development houses will also be able to distribute tool and version updates to multiple dev kits more easily through a tool integrated into Windows Explorer.

 

As for the physical hardware itself, the PS4 will have a Blu-ray drive that's "up to three times faster" than the PS3's drive and will include a "very large" hard drive in every system.

 

 

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/03/sony-dives-deep-into-the-ps4s-hardware-power-controller-features-at-gdc/

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JonnyLH    342

Well ill be dammed. Has DirectX been made open source or are they simply calling it a extended DirectX feature set? Cause theyre two completely different things.

Edit: Ive re-read that and realised its using DirectX, if its not open source, which im pretty sure it still isn't. You've got to give MS credit for letting them actually use it. Kudos to Sony as well, using VS for development is quite ironic but theyve pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Why cant they hit 60fps then? Im really wondering why.

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JonnyLH    342

I got back to my desk and did a bit of digging. It seems that article is very misleading. 

 

The PS4 is not running a version of DirectX, to be honest, it would be harder & take longer to integrate that into a Unix based system. But rather an extended subset of instruction sets which are based around DirectX. For example, what they've made supports tessellation which is only a running feature in DirectX, It gets very techy around this.

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Andrew    2,684

Well ill be dammed. Has DirectX been made open source or are they simply calling it a extended DirectX feature set? Cause theyre two completely different things.

Edit: Ive re-read that and realised its using DirectX, if its not open source, which im pretty sure it still isn't. You've got to give MS credit for letting them actually use it. Kudos to Sony as well, using VS for development is quite ironic but theyve pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Why cant they hit 60fps then? Im really wondering why.

 

None of us will know unless a developer explicity states why; but as I & others have already said it's another architecture switch for Sony & they'll reuire more time. Especially when we can assume MS' SDK and API tools are much better/well documented.

 

Eventually the PS4 devs will get up to speed & most likely the 1st parties will share their data again like they did with PS3.

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WinMunkee    50

Well ill be dammed. Has DirectX been made open source or are they simply calling it a extended DirectX feature set? Cause theyre two completely different things.

Edit: Ive re-read that and realised its using DirectX, if its not open source, which im pretty sure it still isn't. You've got to give MS credit for letting them actually use it. Kudos to Sony as well, using VS for development is quite ironic but theyve pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Why cant they hit 60fps then? Im really wondering why.

Licensing is licensing, all this means is MS makes a cut from PS4 games. Sounds like an Android scenario really. MS wins either way.

 

In the end it's going to come down to architecture really. Microsoft's ESRAM could help make the system even though it's less powerful. In the end, I really feel there will not be too much of a difference.

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JonnyLH    342

Licensing is licensing, all this means is MS makes a cut from PS4 games. Sounds like an Android scenario really. MS wins either way.

Read my later post. It's not actually running DirectX.

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WinMunkee    50

Read my later post. It's not actually running DirectX.

Ah my bad, in that case forget what I said. It sounds like they are just letting developers create their own API's to some extent. I'm not sure how much experience they have in doing that, but it can be both good and bad honestly. Some developers will shine, whereas some will suffer. Overall though it should be interesting, none the less.

 

These forums run so damn slow.

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Brandon H    1,452

the fact that Sony is letting developers have full API control is a bit risky but i think it'll be worth it in the long run

 

it means the games may not be the best at first but as the consoles get more mature and devs are ready to build bare metal then the PS4 will have the advantage

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ctrl_alt_delete    63

Not exactly, the PS4 GPU and memory is different (faster from hardware specs).

 

that's speculation. we dont' fully know whats inside the xbox one like what speeds the components are running at.

sony said they have 176GB bandwidth inside, while Microsoft said combined the xbox has 200GB system bandwidth.

vgleaks had said the way how Microsoft counted their system bandwidth is not how it usually works, but even they stated that they really don't know how Microsoft has it setup inside so they can't judge on what the performance will be.

technically the PS4 might seem faster on paper, but it might not carry the same weight in real life. in theory is not the same thing as in practice.

 

also, the reason why Microsoft went for DDR3 and not GDDR5 is because of apps.GDDR5 doesn't work well with regular apps. so we can expect to have a lot of apps running on the xbox one. many cable and satellite services are releasing apps for their services so I'm sure they will be in the xbox one catalog also. I'm expecting to see a while slew of apps for the system and I shouldn't have a problem running two at the same time.

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HawkMan    5,115

 

 

Well ill be dammed. Has DirectX been made open source or are they simply calling it a extended DirectX feature set? Cause theyre two completely different things.

Edit: Ive re-read that and realised its using DirectX, if its not open source, which im pretty sure it still isn't. You've got to give MS credit for letting them actually use it. Kudos to Sony as well, using VS for development is quite ironic but theyve pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Why cant they hit 60fps then? Im really wondering why.

 

 

DirectX feature Set, NOT directX API/system

 

basically they're just using the list of directX features to show what the card on the console can do. of course sony still needs to build their special OpenGL based API with all these features it supposedly has. 

but the hardware can do it, that's what they mean, not that it runs directX in any way shape or form. 

 

 

As they say, it's a low level API based on the DirectX feature set. Now this is where things get a bit complicated for Sony. they're basically doing the same error they did with he PS2 and PS3. they're bragging about how the developers have access to a lot more stuff with their low level access. What this actually means is "we didn't write an easy to use high level api that's easy for the devs to use, and is optimized to take advantage of the GPU in the best way already from US, so the developers will have to write all the low level stuff and optimize the graphics engines themselves". 

 

There's a reason developers went away from low level api's and coding. it's not that PC users don't have access to them, they just don't have access to it when they use DX. they could have all this low level access if they used direct low level access. with all the problems and hardship that brings. Sony's in this case wouldn't really be low level as much as "mid" level though, but still they're making it harder to code for instead of providing a nice neat pre optimized high level api. 

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JonnyLH    342

DirectX feature Set, NOT directX API/system

 

basically they're just using the list of directX features to show what the card on the console can do. of course sony still needs to build their special OpenGL based API with all these features it supposedly has. 

but the hardware can do it, that's what they mean, not that it runs directX in any way shape or form. 

 

 

As they say, it's a low level API based on the DirectX feature set. Now this is where things get a bit complicated for Sony. they're basically doing the same error they did with he PS2 and PS3. they're bragging about how the developers have access to a lot more stuff with their low level access. What this actually means is "we didn't write an easy to use high level api that's easy for the devs to use, and is optimized to take advantage of the GPU in the best way already from US, so the developers will have to write all the low level stuff and optimize the graphics engines themselves". 

 

There's a reason developers went away from low level api's and coding. it's not that PC users don't have access to them, they just don't have access to it when they use DX. they could have all this low level access if they used direct low level access. with all the problems and hardship that brings. Sony's in this case wouldn't really be low level as much as "mid" level though, but still they're making it harder to code for instead of providing a nice neat pre optimized high level api. 

Yeah dude, I said in my later post but to you worded it better than I did. Low level makes me the developers work a lot more as they have a lot more thinking around the actual running of the code.

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ViperAFK    781

DirectX feature Set, NOT directX API/system

 

basically they're just using the list of directX features to show what the card on the console can do. of course sony still needs to build their special OpenGL based API with all these features it supposedly has. 

but the hardware can do it, that's what they mean, not that it runs directX in any way shape or form. 

 

 

As they say, it's a low level API based on the DirectX feature set. Now this is where things get a bit complicated for Sony. they're basically doing the same error they did with he PS2 and PS3. they're bragging about how the developers have access to a lot more stuff with their low level access. What this actually means is "we didn't write an easy to use high level api that's easy for the devs to use, and is optimized to take advantage of the GPU in the best way already from US, so the developers will have to write all the low level stuff and optimize the graphics engines themselves". 

 

There's a reason developers went away from low level api's and coding. it's not that PC users don't have access to them, they just don't have access to it when they use DX. they could have all this low level access if they used direct low level access. with all the problems and hardship that brings. Sony's in this case wouldn't really be low level as much as "mid" level though, but still they're making it harder to code for instead of providing a nice neat pre optimized high level api. 

Sony's approach isn't totally inferior as you seem to be making it out to be, I'm sure that since you get more low level access with the ps4 it could be possible to squeeze more out of it. It's not like directX is 100% flawless and always does everything the most efficient way possible (although I'm not hating on directx, it's quite good).

 

Just look at what some of the first party developers for the PS3 were able to squeeze out later in the console's lifetime (naughty dog is a good example with last of us and the uncharted games), the PS3 was difficult to develop for but if the developer really invested they could do pretty incredible things. And with the x86 architecture the ps4 won't be nearly as difficult as the PS3.

 

The way I see it: development will be easier on the xbox one, but the ps4's combination of more raw power in the hardware and lower level access will allow developers to squeeze more out of the system later in its lifetime. They both have their pros and cons.

 

 

Really the best approach would be to offer something higher level and generally optimized like directx, but also offer lower level access like the ps4's approach, which could offer the best of both worlds.

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HawkMan    5,115

Yes, theoretically, many years down the line, Sony's approach could lead to a tiny percentage boost. HOWEVER. until that point. the Xbox One will not only have a performance boost, it will also be easier to develop for(this is why they're showing 1080 games at 60 frames on the One now, and the PS4 is having issues with 30 frames). Also this advantage is in general mostly exclusive to first party devs. Big third party devs like EA won't bother using resources to custom optimize crap for the console. smaller devs won't have the experience unless they've made several games for the console already, 

 

So the reality is that this will only translate for first party titles, and not for several yeard. Look at the histroy, PC games had and still have this low level access. they abandoned it because it's better to use a mature pre optimized system like DirectX.

 

which brings us to another point. during the original Xbox and the 360 your point would have been more accurate. But directX itself today is a very mature platform that's been optimized and tweaked and re-optimized over the years. There's 15 years of experiences and optimization in it. Even a super optimized first partytitle will have very little advantage over this. at the costs of hundreds of man hours optimizing and hundreds of thousands in cost.

 

For everyone it's better to have a well developed well supported API platform over low level/hybrid low/mid level API/access. It's a long time since developers optimized the Assembly code of their games to squeeze out that extra performance :)

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Athernar    604

Look at the histroy, PC games had and still have this low level access. they abandoned it because it's better to use a mature pre optimized system like DirectX.

 

They abandoned it because it's not feasible to support the myriad vendors and hardware combinations that exist(ed) in the PC ecosystem. That's not an issue with consoles.

 

DirectX isn't an optimisation, it's an abstraction. It's there to make things easier in much the same way as developing something in C# vs C/C++.

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Rodrigo    43

For everyone it's better to have a well developed well supported API platform over low level/hybrid low/mid level API/access. It's a long time since developers optimized the Assembly code of their games to squeeze out that extra performance :)

 

Not only this, but I'm almost positive the version of DirectX that the Xbox One is going to use is going to be optimized specifically for the XO's hardware.

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Joseph Sanz BlackDracko    0

high technology for cooling....
 

557842_10201704326146858_1433486517_n.jp

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123456789A    4,708

To be fair, the PS3 did look like a george foreman grill when it was released. The first PS3 was a behemoth and had not many games at launch.

 

GFG.jpg

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+warwagon    9,719

high technology for cooling....

 

557842_10201704326146858_1433486517_n.jp

 

You know people smoke like chimneys when! The bad thing is too, that ###### doesn't blow off.

post-4927-0-33917700-1379870998.jpg

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KevinN206    46

You know people smoke like chimneys when! The bad thing is too, that **** doesn't blow off.

That is a possible scenario, but that's the same for most cooling systems with fans. I am guessing the blade design and the RPM speed of the fan may make a difference in dust accumulation. Since this fan is so massive, I would think the RPM is much lower than say a CPU fan on a desktop computer.

 

Also, the XB1 can adjust fan speed and clock speed of the CPU so that it doesn't overheat. I think it's unlikely that they will have another RROD, but maybe a degradation of performance with throttling. However, the user will be notified if such "overheating" occurs. But then again I am just an ordinary person who didn't design system or know how it was tested and what the scenarios and assumptions were.

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Alera    155

Have any of you stopped and considered that several developers so far have stated that they can't do 1080p and keep 60fps? They have to upscale and THEN they get 60fps as a tradeoff, so how far does this go? Do all games get upscaled, do some run at 1080p and have lesser graphics to achieve it? Is it possible to have high end graphics and keep a fluid 60fps on a console?

 

Remains to be seen and yes, some of the console game demos WERE running on PC hardware, the pictures are all there for everyone to see online.

 

One thing is for sure, this thread is filled with so much bias...

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mikemc2k    1

Uhhh...yeah... :shifty:...it hanged during a live demo.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCl8wVhHC28

thats twice it happened to the ps4, once during e3 2013 press conference and now this,.....all i can say is damn!!!!!!!!

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Ravensky    560

yeah .. it's a marvel... It's a PC...that's marvelous! lmao!!!  Even then on my PC I can run more than 1080p and obtain higher than 60fps so how is it a Marvel? Are you joking?  It's a low end gaming PC in a little black box...nothing new to see here...

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