PS4 Architect Mark Cerny: Cloud won't work well to boost graphics

[MikeChipshop Member]

 

 

If it was possible to do what people are claiming in this thread, then why bother with the Xbox One in the first place? It would be far more economical to use the "power of the cloud" to extend the life of the 360 even further.

 

You've obviously not read the thread properly then, that's all i'm saying.

It's to complement the power of the One (and pretty soon after that you can bet Sony get in on the action).

[spudtrooper]

Cloud is untested. Of course he has a bias, but you can't dismiss his opinion out of hand. He is experienced and his opinions are, at the very least, worth listening to. If he is proven wrong, the internet won't let him forget it.

 

This is pure BS.  The cloud is very much tested. It's being used to solve super computing problems in the scientific and engineering realm and yes, some of these problems include actually rendering. Not on a console, not in realtime, not the exact way of the xbox one but there is NO one way, that's the beauty of the cloud, is a Huge freaking abstract API and compute cycle that one can NEVER achieve in their living room and *MICROSOFT* knows this.

 

Whether or not its real time rendering of anything is pointless, it doesn't have to be. It could be super massive worlds, or pre-rendered worlds that are dynamically changed as you play - leaving your console to focus on the local bits but the "expensive" stuff is done on the cloud.

 

the cloud is a terrible word to describe the compute capacity, but it is what it is.  Saying its immature through is to be completely ignorant of what is really possible.

[Athernar]

You've obviously not read the thread properly then, that's all i'm saying.

It's to complement the power of the One (and pretty soon after that you can bet Sony get in on the action).

 

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

[Rodrigo]

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

 

So it's just a matter of flipping a switch?

 

if it's possible then it's doable by anyone or in anything?

 

You skip research, funding, infraestructure/technology, implementation and who knows what else.

 

By your logic, any device built in the past decades should be revised so it can have Internet functionallity.

[Athernar]

So it's just a matter of flipping a switch?

 

if it's possible then it's doable by anyone or in anything?

 

You skip research, funding, infraestructure/technology, implementation and who knows what else.

 

By your logic, any device built in the past decades should be revised so it can have Internet functionallity.

 

You might want to take the time to read the last couple of pages of this thread, as your post doesn't make the slighest bit of sense.

[ahhell]

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

 

Why would MS bother extending the life of 8 year old hardware?  How would that in the slightest way be financially feasible?

 

So according to your "one of 2 worlds" comment, both worlds would be beneficial to end users.  How is that a bad thing exactly?

[MikeChipshop Member]

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

 

No need to be so defensive, i'm pointing out that maybe you're not quite getting what is being said here.

 

It's not as simple as being able to just squirt pre-rendered bits on to the console, the console still needs the architecture in place to accept that way of doing things. The One has been built from the ground up to allow for this, the 360 was built 8 years before the idea.

[Rodrigo]

You might want to take the time to read the last couple of pages of this thread, as your post doesn't make the slighest bit of sense.

 

I don't need to, I am referring to what you are saying on that post. But sure, whatever floats your boat.

[vcfan]

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

 

why waste 10x more resources in the cloud? do you know the astronomical costs of that? thats why it doesnt make sense. its simple logic. geez.

[Rodrigo]

why waste 10x more resources in the cloud? do you know the astronomical costs of that? thats why it doesnt make sense. its simple logic. geez.

 

The logic of these people is: "to justify the gimmick". What else? Obviously is not because it is needed.

[LaP]

OK now this is from a guy who's still on the fence about which console will be his first (or maybe only) purchase but this guy seems to not quite understand his own industry.

 

By pushing certain aspects of the game that are non-latency dependent,

 

Most of the things that are non latency dependent and deterministic can be pre-calculated.

 

A guy in the Ars forum did resume it very very well.

 

As others have mentioned, it's an interesting solution to a very specific problem.

1) The simulation must be deterministic

2) No further interactions can take place

3) Computationally expensive to the point of being prohibitively expensive to do locally

4) Cannot be pre-calculated

The number of cases where those points do not conflict with one another are very limited. For example, the rock-in-pond simulation; it fits 1 and 4, maybe 3, but 2? How can you guarantee that the player won't drop another rock in the pond?

If you say, "So when a new rock hits the pond, the local simulation takes over." Okay, sure; but if the local simulation is capable of taking over at any point, why isn't the entire simulation just running locally? In other words, you're violating point 3.

[LaP]

that 4k will actually work on their system?

4k gaming wont be possible on any of the next generation systems. If you think otherwise you are just folling yourself.

[spudtrooper]

No, I think I've read the thread fine. You and/or others however might not be fully grasping the implications of what is being claimed/said here.

 

If the potential offloading of computation was possible as claimed, then it would also be applicable to the 360 - and would easily be able to prolong the life of the aged console. Arguably at this point in time, such an approach makes far more sense on the 360 than using the cloud to "complement" the One, as the potential of the next-gen consoles is nowhere close to being fully utilised.

 

Simply put, you have the choice to live in one of two worlds. One where these cloud claims are correct, and the need for the Xbox One is diminished - or one where the claims are bogus and the cloud will only be useful for dedicated servers and deep-analysis based AI.

 

It's not that easy..  The 360 OS is dated and based on technology from 10 years ago..   The Xbox one is based upon newer technology, has Hyperv bulit in so parallel tasks running in the virtualized OS is easy to do - it also has 2.5 the core count so that cores can be dedicated to handling aysnchronous transactions which the 360 os has no built in design thereof, the Xbox one / windows 8 /WinRT is built around cloud paradigm computing and remote resources and asynchronous design.

 

That isn't to say a developer couldn't do that on their own, but why go through all the effort to re-imagine an aging architecture when you can do it right on new hardware?  Wouldn't be surprised if PC gaming adopts it too, but with PC's sometimes its easier to force hardware upgrades than it is to scale out infrastructure because you're pushing the hardware costs to the consumer and not inhering them yourself.  MS already has the infrastructure with azure (which wasn't easily available when the 360 launched) and it  just makes sense to use it.. its cheap, powerful and feature rich - able to spinup/spin down on demand and proves to be absolutely performant and low latency - stuff very hard to do on your own without massive cash reserves.

 

its not as black and white as you hope it is and not sure why you're presenting it so artificially so.

4k gaming wont be possible on any of the next generation systems. If you think otherwise you are just folling yourself.

 

Only 4k video is supported, no gaming. Confirmed by sony and ms..

[Showan]

This is old but:

 

At Microsoft?s Professional Developer Conference (PDC) last fall, Pixar?s RenderMan team unveiled a proof of concept demonstration showing RenderMan Pro Server running in the Cloud on Windows Azure.

 

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2011/02/28/hollywoods-render-farms-move-to-the-cloud/

 

So rendering can be done in the cloud?

[Athernar]

Why would MS bother extending the life of 8 year old hardware?  How would that in the slightest way be financially feasible?

 

So according to your "one of 2 worlds" comment, both worlds would be beneficial to end users.  How is that a bad thing exactly?

 

Because it's the cheap easy way of doing it. Putting out a new console is expensive, disruptive and often has to be sold at a loss initially.

 

The only reason to put out a "new" console is when the current one is too slow. If you can mitigate the slowness, then you extend the lifespan and save money. The only reason why this hasn't happened is because that "reality" doesn't exist and is technically impossible.

 

why waste 10x more resources in the cloud? do you know the astronomical costs of that? thats why it doesnt make sense. its simple logic. geez.

 

Hah! Have you seen some of the "ideas" that have been put forth on these forums since the cloud stuff was detailed? It's only a waste to you (Nice invented 10x figure by the way) now because it challenges the value of the One.

 

You don't need to worry though, as it's not ever going to happen as mentioned above. Latency kills the cloud for such workloads.

 

I don't need to, I am referring to what you are saying on that post. But sure, whatever floats your boat.

 

Yeah, you kinda do need to because it would give you context. Your post makes no sense and almost seems to imply the 360 lacks internet connectivity.

 

No need to be so defensive, i'm pointing out that maybe you're not quite getting what is being said here.

 

It's not as simple as being able to just squirt pre-rendered bits on to the console, the console still needs the architecture in place to accept that way of doing things. The One has been built from the ground up to allow for this, the 360 was built 8 years before the idea.

 

Actually, it is really that simple. Any additional "architechture" is a nice bonus to have, but is by no means "required" for this to work. The only difference between cloud computing a render workload and any other workload is the former is often latency sensitive, and you don't need special hardware to do cloud computing elsewhere.

[LaP]

to output 4k resolution  on them you only need  HDMI spec 1.4    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4

 

 

HDMI 1.4 was released on May 28, 2009, and the first HDMI 1.4 products were available in the second half of 2009.[/size]^{%5B111%5D%5B143%5D} HDMI 1.4 increases the maximum resolution to 4K ? 2K, i.e. 3840 ? 2160p (Quad HD) at 24 Hz/25 Hz/30 Hz or 4096 ? 2160p at 24 Hz (which is a resolution used with [/size]digital theaters); [/size]

HDMI 1.4 can only do 4kp24 so for gaming i don't think so. Next gen consoles wont have the required power anyway.

[Athernar]

It's not that easy..  The 360 OS is dated and base don technology 10 years ago..   The Xbox one is based upon newer technology, has Hyperv bulit in so parallel tasks running in the virtualized OS is easy to do - it also has 2.5 the core count so that cores can be dedicated to handling aysnchronous transactions which the 360 os has no built in design thereof, the Xbox one / windows 8 /WinRT is built around cloud paradigm computing and remote resources and asynchronous design.

 

That isn't to say a developer couldn't do that on their own, but why go through all the effort to re-imagine an aging architecture when you can do it right on new hardware?  Wouldn't be surprised if PC gaming adopts it too, but with PC's sometimes its easier to force hardware upgrades than it is to scale out infrastructure because you're pushing the hardware costs to the consumer and not inherinthem yourself.  MS already has the infrastructure with azure (which wasn't easily available when the 360 launched) and it  just makes sense to use it.

 

its not as black and white as you hope it is and not sure why you're presenting it so artificially so.

 

None of that has any relevance to the point, and considering your track record of posting absolute bunk - likely untrue to boot.

[vcfan]

You don't need to worry though, as it's not ever going to happen as mentioned above. Latency kills the cloud for such workloads.

 

read my post on the previous page #5,and reply back,its convenient that you ignore whatever you want to ignore.

[MikeChipshop Member]

None of that has any relevance to the point, and considering your track record of posting absolute bunk - likely untrue to boot.

 

There we go getting defensive again. The truth is you're posting absolute tosh and you know it.

[Athernar]

read my post on the previous page #5,and reply back,its convenient that you ignore whatever you want to ignore.

 

I ignored it because your post is a load of rubbish, objects outside of view are not rendered to begin with, and you can't pre-render it as you don't know where and when the object will come into view, or if it's state will change. Read the ars link.

 

There we go getting defensive again. The truth is you're posting absolute tosh and you know it.

 

You can believe what you want honestly, at the end of the day I get the last laugh when you're left disappointed because the PR didn't live up to reality. That and the whole PC gaming master race, yaknow?

[spudtrooper]

None of that has any relevance to the point, and considering your track record of posting absolute bunk - likely untrue to boot.

 

It's so funny you keep telling yourself that.

 

The only posts that are absolute bunk are yours.  Obviously you have no clue what you're talking about and the only defense you have is to get more cheerleaders in to throw personal attacks.

 

There is alots of cool stuff happening in the cloud for science, research, commercial and educatonal enterprises and none of what i've ever mentioned has been debunked, its just been broadsided by people who have no clue how this stuff really works because they're afraid of it or completely ignorant of it.

 

Massive scalability is my day job.. i'd love to see what yours is.

[Athernar]

It's so funny you keep telling yourself that.

 

The only posts that are absolute bunk are yours.

 

I don't need to tell myself anything, the proof exists on this forum.

 

Get back to me when you have a technical argument, rather than vomiting a bunch of buzzwords.

[spudtrooper]

I don't need to tell myself anything, the proof exists on this forum.

 

Get back to me when you have a technical argument, rather than vomiting a bunch of buzzwords.

 

Get back to me when you grow up.  Just because there are other dense people on doesn't mean i lose my ability for critical thinking or logic. There is no proof that you know better than Microsoft and to assume so is just so rich, its hilarious.

 

:rofl:

[Athernar]

Get back to me when you grow up.  Just because there are other dense people on doesn't mean i lose my ability for critical thinking or logic. There is no proof that you know better than Microsoft and to assume so is just so rich, its hilarious.

 

Plus one notch to the "Appeal to Authority" fallacy column.

[engii]

ummm

 

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/23872/ubisoft-xbox-one-version-of-watch-dogs-more-dynamic-than-ps4-and-current-gen-versions

 

"For example, we?re able to simulate the water in full 3D, if you go on a boat the waves that form will affect other boats. We?re also able to spend more time giving brains to the other people on the streets so that they can basically be smarter, and there can be more of them. It?s what I call dynamism; basically, the way the city reacts to you, we are able to push further on the Xbox One.?

 

ummm

 

http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

 

"But it?s not just for dedicated servers ? Microsoft thought about our problem in a bigger way. Developers aren?t going to just want dedicated servers ? they?ll have all kinds of features that need a server to do some kind of work to make games better."

 

"So it?s not accurate to say that the Xbox Live Cloud is simply a system for running dedicated servers ? it can do a lot more than that."

 

ummm

 

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/forza_motorsport_5/b/xboxone/archive/2013/06/12/turn-10-talks-drivatars-cars-and-cloud-power-in-forza-5.aspx

 

"Cloud and networking technology also plays a major part in Forza 5. Cloud technology will track all your in-game behavior, from driving tendencies to purchasing and customization experiences. The goal is to provide the player with a truly tailored experience. If you like one livery or paint color, the cloud will remember and suggest other similar popular colors or designs. This is also true for car purchases, helping you to more quickly sift through the hundreds of options to find a vehicle you like. User created content will be pushed heavily, and free to download. Content creators will receive payment based on downloads of their work, however."

 

"the cloud will analyze your opponents, and suggest performance and tuning enhancements that will help even the playing field"

 

 

in short....any ###### you can throw to the cloud means you got more power on console top do more with graphics etc...i.e. offloading world physics, event management etc where possible will technically result in better graphics or at least be capable of allowing for more graphical power where it counts!!!

 

any questions??