Windows 8.1- Desktop lovers rejoice (brief review)

[Athernar]

I just think I live a simpler life, granted I don't rely on technology for my job anymore like I used to, but I upgrade, notice some differences, learn how it works and move on with my life. 

I might get annoyed about some things once and a while but I just don't go yelling that these changes are hostile, MS made the biggest mistake in their life, yadayadayada

 

If they change everything again when it comes to Win 9, i'll do the same thing again.

 

So basically you're just willing to let Microsoft roll over you, accepting whatever change they throw out.

 

That's great that you're willing to put up with mediocrity, but some of us would actually prefer that Microsoft take the optimal route. Ironically I guess that actually makes us the Microsoft fans, since at the end of the day they stand to lose the most.

[MorganX]

I think you mistake my intent, I have no opposition to Microsoft pursuing those segments nor do I oppose the existence of Metro in general. What I do however oppose is the forced mixing of the two from both directions.

 

Microsoft could of taken a cleanly segregated approach that would of benefitted both platforms, but they didn't because most likely the usual idiot execs thought forcing Metro on the desktop would boost it's adoption in general. In the end it harmed both.

 

Heck, this isn't totally without precedent. Look at the slow adoption of DirectX 10, again arguably not helped by the original tying to NT6.x.

 

 

No, it's simple fact. You just don't want to admit Microsoft did something wrong/poorly.

 

The decisions made were bad, but again, I don't know if they had a choice. Look how tough it is even now, if they didn't try to leverage their desktop dominance where would their tablets be? Most of the sales are to enterprises ...

 

Also, they had to provide a significant desktop OS upgrade to encourage Enterprise Agreement renewals for operating systems. With Enterprises looking and how much useful life XP had, why wouldn't we expect the same from 7? These sentiments were openly expressed by many organizations to Microsoft. Trust me, there will be a major desktop OS release every 1-3 years someway, somehow.

 

I don't think the idea is bad, more or less a single code base across devices. It's a touch task and RTM was a failure, 8.1 pretty good. I'm more disappointed in the phone/desktop/tablet ecosystem and lack of easy syncing of media across them. The whole Xbox for Windows initiative has been a failure to this point IMO. The decision not to sync the Phones and Tablet to the desktop for media was/is a boneheaded decision IMO.

[Stoffel]

Why do you see this as rolling over?

I made a conscious decision to buy a Windows 8, because I like to play around with new things.

Like I said, I don't rely heavily on technology anymore for my job, it's all for pleasure now.

 

But it's still just your opinion, not fact, that Win8.1 is mediocre, could they improve things, sure, and I hope they do

But I don't find it bad at all. It might help that I now have a Lenovo Yoga with touch, I think that combination is great

[MorganX]

I just think I live a simpler life, granted I don't rely on technology for my job anymore like I used to, but I upgrade, notice some differences, learn how it works and move on with my life. 

I might get annoyed about some things once and a while but I just don't go yelling that these changes are hostile, MS made the biggest mistake in their life, yadayadayada

 

If they change everything again when it comes to Win 9, i'll do the same thing again.

 

You can actually enjoy and play with technology now! :D

[MorganX]

Why do you see this as rolling over?

I made a conscious decision to buy a Windows 8, because I like to play around with new things.

Like I said, I don't rely heavily on technology anymore for my job, it's all for pleasure now.

 

But it's still just your opinion, not fact, that Win8.1 is mediocre, could they improve things, sure, and I hope they do

But I don't find it bad at all. It might help that I now have a Lenovo Yoga with touch, I think that combination is great

 

One thing that IMO is hurting Windows 8.1 and touch ... Surface. It's not the best tablet, really. Many of the others are lighter, and better. I love the allow and the kickstand, but it really has overshadowed some tablets that could probably have made bigger inroads. We've really backed off and aren't necessarily recommending Surface 2's. We are pushing anything as long as it's not RT, which I personally like.

[Stoffel]

You can actually enjoy and play with technology now! :D

 

As long as my laptop can show pdf files and I can open some powerpoint presentations, I'm sorted for work now

All the rest is just play indeed. I still play around with Visual studio when I have some time of, but that's about it

[Stoffel]

One thing that IMO is hurting Windows 8.1 and touch ... Surface. It's not the best tablet, really. Many of the others are lighter, and better. I love the allow and the kickstand, but it really has overshadowed some tablets that could probably have made bigger inroads. We've really backed off and aren't necessarily recommending Surface 2's. We are pushing anything as long as it's not RT, which I personally like.

 

When I was up for buying a new pc I looked at the surface pro, surface was a no starter for me since I still want to play around with some desktop apps, but I went with the yoga in the end because I use my laptop a lot in the couch. It just seemed a lot easier to use then the surface with the KB cover.

 

Still no regrets about my choice, but I would love for my gf to get a RT device, that's all she needs and they get great battery life.

No idea which one yet though. Surface 2 gets good reviews, minus the ecosystem, but the Nokia one looks really nice too.

[Athernar]

The decisions made were bad, but again, I don't know if they had a choice. Look how tough it is even now, if they didn't try to leverage their desktop dominance where would their tablets be? Most of the sales are to enterprises ...

 

Also, they had to provide a significant desktop OS upgrade to encourage Enterprise Agreement renewals for operating systems. With Enterprises looking and how much useful life XP had, why wouldn't we expect the same from 7? These sentiments were openly expressed by many organizations to Microsoft. Trust me, there will be a major desktop OS release every 1-3 years someway, somehow.

 

I don't think the idea is bad, more or less a single code base across devices. It's a touch task and RTM was a failure, 8.1 pretty good. I'm more disappointed in the phone/desktop/tablet ecosystem and lack of easy syncing of media across them. The whole Xbox for Windows initiative has been a failure to this point IMO. The decision not to sync the Phones and Tablet to the desktop for media was/is a boneheaded decision IMO.

 

They had a choice (to offer choice), but as is the case with big corporations some exec or manager was absolutely convinced that choice had to be removed as it would somehow impede the Metro ecosystem.

 

Again, if they want to pursue tablets and etc that's great. But I still don't see why that decision should have to impact the desktop, or why they couldn't offer the choice.

 

Why do you see this as rolling over?

I made a conscious decision to buy a Windows 8, because I like to play around with new things.

Like I said, I don't rely heavily on technology anymore for my job, it's all for pleasure now.

 

But it's still just your opinion, not fact, that Win8.1 is mediocre, could they improve things, sure, and I hope they do

But I don't find it bad at all. It might help that I now have a Lenovo Yoga with touch, I think that combination is great

 

I don't see it as rolling over, you stated it outright youself. You stated you're quite happy to go and buy whatever the newest version of Windows is and accept the changes verbatim.

 

That's rolling over and being a bad consumer.

[Dot Matrix]

They had a choice (to offer choice), but as is the case with big corporations some exec or manager was absolutely convinced that choice had to be removed as it would somehow impede the Metro ecosystem.

 

Again, if they want to pursue tablets and etc that's great. But I still don't see why that decision should have to impact the desktop, or why they couldn't offer the choice.

There's no choice because Windows 8 IS Metro, and Metro IS Windows 8. Simple. Metro is to Windows 8 as UAC is to Windows Vista - It's part of the OS, and there's no way around it. Without it, you simply have Windows 7, and that wouldn't be fair to users to ask them to pay up again for the same thing.

When you make changes, you don't make them optional, otherwise you'd never get anywhere.

[Athernar]

There's no choice because Windows 8 IS Metro, and Metro IS Windows 8. Simple. Metro is to Windows 8 as UAC is to Windows Vista - It's part of the OS, and there's no way around it. Without it, you simply have Windows 7, and that wouldn't be fair to users to ask them to pay up again for the same thing.

When you make changes, you don't make them optional, otherwise you'd never get anywhere.

 

Nope, Metro is just a generic UI built ontop of the existing Windows infrastructure. Metro is no more Windows 8 than MCE was Windows 7. If you also think Windows 8.x sans Metro is identical to Windows 7, that's rather insulting to the backend engineers at Microsoft, don't you think?

 

You're also wrong yet again, even Microsoft seems to think so as they decided to offer to choice of boot to desktop in 8.1.

 

Ugh, your sycophantry is tiring.

[Anibal P]

I don't think there has been any version of windows in history that has divided the windows community like this.

 

I love the start screen the most on a tablet, but the love stops there. I don't like the start screen as much as the start menu on laptops or desktops and I feel the start screen is a step down in windows ui evolution also. The start screen takes the entire screen, it takes longer to move your mouse to open a program, the search is not visible unless you start typing, your library folders are not there unless you pin them,  and the start screen makes working on the desktop less productive. The start menu is smaller, opening programs takes less time, you have all your library folders on the side unlike the start screen, the search is visible unlike the start screen, you can launch programs in the search and the start menu opens faster than the start screen .

 

Overall I think the start screen caters to touch displays more and the start menu is caters better for desktop users.

 

 

I remember Vista being pretty hated for no real reason too

[chrisj1968]

My hope is.. that with news of Bill Gates spending considerable time with the new CEO that, maybe MS will listen and we modern UI fans and desktop fans can get a product that we can all be happy with.

[Dot Matrix]

Nope, Metro is just a generic UI built ontop of the existing Windows infrastructure. Metro is no more Windows 8 than MCE was Windows 7. If you also think Windows 8.x sans Metro is identical to Windows 7, that's rather insulting to the backend engineers at Microsoft, don't you think?

 

You're also wrong yet again, even Microsoft seems to think so as they decided to offer to choice of boot to desktop in 8.1.

 

Ugh, your sycophantry is tiring.

Metro is more than just a "generic UI". It's a whole new system, with it's own code. This is why Metro Apps do not interact with the desktop.

Booting to the desktop is hardly admittance that Microsoft is wrong, they're still developing Metro, and have no plans to reverse course.

[Athernar]

Metro is more than just a "generic UI". It's a whole new system, with it's own code. This is why Metro Apps do not interact with the desktop.

Booting to the desktop is hardly admittance that Microsoft is wrong, they're still developing Metro, and have no plans to reverse course.

 

It's an new ecosystem built on top of the existing Windows ecosystem (Win32).

 

*Snip*

Edited November 19, 2013 by Caleo
Pacification

[Dot Matrix]

It's an new ecosystem built on top of the existing Windows ecosystem (Win32).

There you go. "New ecosystem" is a far cry from "generic UI".

But in the end Microsoft is still changing course and unifying their platforms. And in that regard, there is only few choices they can allow users that doesn't break what they want to do. They want to unify Windows into the greater picture, and that's the biggest part Metro plays.

[Athernar]

There you go. "New ecosystem" is a far cry from "generic UI".

But in the end Microsoft is still changing course and unifying their platforms. And in that regard, there is only few choices they can allow users that doesn't break what they want to do. They want to unify Windows into the greater picture, and that's the biggest part Metro plays.

 

Wrong yet again, it's a new ecosystem that is also a generic UI. You know how it works (albeit sub-optimally) on both touch and mouse/keyboard? That's called being general purpose, hence "generic".

 

And again, wrong. There is/was nothing stopping Microsoft from offering choice, and doing so does nothing to impede that growth. To reiterate a past point, not offering said choice has done more harm as more people have just stuck with 7, rather than moving to 8 - further ruling out the possibility they might dabble.

 

*snip*

Edited November 19, 2013 by Caleo
Pacification

[Dot Matrix]

And again, wrong. There is/was nothing stopping Microsoft from offering choice, and doing so does nothing to impede that growth.

I'm done bickering. We've been telling you why there was no "choice", but maybe a developer can convince you of the technical reason why there is little choice. Windows isn't an open system. It's not meant for users to pick apart piece by piece.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hate-windows-8/page-30#entry595048551

[Athernar]

I'm done bickering. We've been telling you why there was no "choice", but maybe a developer can convince you of the technical reason why there is little choice. Windows isn't an open system. It's not meant for users to pick apart piece by piece.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hate-windows-8/page-30#entry595048551

 

*snip*

 

Every time one of your points is challenged or disproven you move onto the next without the slightest acknowlegement.

 

And your link only really goes to prove that Microsoft were lazy, not to mention his conclusion is flawed.

 

Really now, they could invest the effort to port Windows to ARM and develop WinRT + Metro, yet they couldn't put a little effort in to preserve or provide an equivalent alternative to the start menu? Sorry, I'm not gullible enough to buy that.

 

It certainly wasn't that hard for all those 3rd-party devs to achieve now was it?

Edited November 19, 2013 by Caleo
Pacification

[Darrian]

Omg it never stops.  Yes, removing the start menu completely was a dick move.  The start menu was part of the desktop, and the desktop is now an app, so if you're running the desktop there is no reason there can't be a start menu when you're on the desktop and a start screen when you are not using the desktop.  That just isn't the way they went with it.  Many other developers stepped in to fix that "problem."  I went with Start8 because it was the first and it works really, really well, so IMO it deserves my loyalty, but there are many others to choose from.  Some of them even have their own vision of what the start menu should have been and are interesting to check out.  My point?  Install a start menu or go back to windows 7, but if you're going to run windows 8 then accept that you are running windows 8 and that is what windows 8 is, how it functions, how windows is going to function until they redesign the UI again at some unknown point in the future.  There is no point in arguing about it.  God knows there was a very vocal group when 8 first came out that practically begged Microsoft to put back the start menu and Microsoft said "**** you," giving them back their start button... that launches the start screen.  Microsoft is not going to budge on this and all the crying in the world isn't going to make them change their mind.  Get over it already.  Whining about the start menu, especially when there is a solution that you are intentionally not using, is like spending 3 hours to make enchiladas, even though you don't like enchiladas, and then complaining about how much you don't like enchiladas after every bite that you force down your own throat; except maybe you like them with a certain type of salsa poured on top, so you have a jar of it on the table in front of you, but instead of using it you are sitting there saying to yourself "man, this would taste so much better if I put some of that salsa on it" but you continue to let the jar sit there.

 

Guess what?  Microsoft removed sidebar gadgets, too, and I miss them a hell of a lot more than I miss the start menu.  Luckily somebody found a way to take the components from the RC and install them on the RTM, and it still works on 8.1.

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

Anarkii, just wondered why your clock shows 3:57 PM on the 4/11/2013 (also the 0 seems to be missing from infront of the 4), i wasn`t aware it was that time anywhere in the world yet ;)

Maybe that`s something to do with the 'Evaluation Copy' deal...

Australian dating system I think

Today it shows up as 5/11/2013 for example - which is normal for us as we dont see it as 05/11/2013

[Lord Method Man]

 

Guess what?  Microsoft removed sidebar gadgets, too, and I miss them a hell of a lot more than I miss the start menu.  Luckily somebody found a way to take the components from the RC and install them on the RTM, and it still works on 8.1.

 

As I recall those were removed because they were a security vulnerability and not as an arbitrary design choice.

[Dot Matrix]

As I recall those were removed because they were a security vulnerability and not as an arbitrary design choice.

Plus, no one used them. The gadget gallery was an embarrassment.

[Darrian]

I only use http://www.deviantart.com/art/Chameleon-Glass-149960723, which are fantastic, and they haven't been ported to rainmeter.

[+Anarkii Subscriber²]

So I have been using Windows 8.1 for well over a week now and im going to give you my thoughts on it, from someone who was really against it.

My time with Windows 8.1 Pro was spent 98% of the time in the desktop. While yes I did go into the start screen for a hour to play around with it, the default apps are all completely useless, and most of all, annoying. Having every app open in full screen is just a nightmare, it makes multi-tasking impossible for me. (yes i know bout the left corner hovering thing but that is useless too). I did download a couple of games from the Windows store, namely Halo the top down one and some Diablo clone which is pretty good. So to this day, I have 3 tiles on my start-screen - Desktop, and those two games. 

Now those two games ran excellent on Windows 8.1, but in saying that, they would also run fine on Windows 7 too, if they ported it to a exe. Games didnt feel snappier or anything, but they did run flawlessly.

So like I said I spent most of my time in the desktop. 

Now... by default, the installed desktop sucks balls. Yeah, its got the bells and whistles, but the fact of the matter is, the charms bar and hot corners destroys the desktop experience. 
First thing I did was disable everything metro like that I could. Charm bar, gone, hot corners, gone. Boot to desktop checked. Things were sweet again.
Then I clicked the start button. OH GOD METRO IS BACK. Okay that has to go. Metro and the Start screen is the devils spawn incarnate and many many of you feel the same.
Sooo straight to stardock to download Start8. Start menu restored to former glory (and feels better and looks better than the one in Windows 7! well done guys!) 
The best thing? The only way I could go to Metro now is the link at the top of the apps in that menu. No more accidentally clicking anything to bring it up. It's gone. 
Next thing was activating Windows 8 without a legal key. Well im not going to get into that, but lets just say it was an easy process. I don't condone piracy, if its good - buy it! I wanted to test Windows 8.1 Pro with all its features and that required it to be activated, but I did only yesterday buy a legit key :) **** Like installing Windows Media Edition thingie*****
Anyway, love the new windows explorer. Copying things and deleting things and showing the speeds at which it's doing it in real time is just awesome. The new task manager - awesome.
Then seeing Neobonds desktop with gadgets was the selling point for me. I needed one particular gadget to see my download allowance and to have gadgets running again was just awesome. 

So for you Windows 8 haters im going to say this. 
Get Windows 8.1. If you really love Windows 7, follow what I did above and it will feel exactly like 7, but faster, snappier, and just, I dunno it just feels better. Its hard to explain it. Just disable everything Metro. Uninstall EVERYTHING except the desktop tile from the start screen. You wont look back. 

Anyway theres my rant. Hope it may sway some of you to give it a go. 

Below is my Windows 8.1 Pro desktop :)

[LambdaLambdaLambdaFn]

I should know better than to wade into these types of debates.  But here I am typing this.  I'm new to the forum so I'll try to tread somewhat lightly.

 

Let me start off by saying that while I am on the "pro-Windows 8" side, the points made by the other side are absolutely valid:  Windows 8 suffers for a poor app ecosystem, for now. You can't do everything in the Modern UI (/Metro) that you can on desktop, for now.  Windows 7 works beautifully for most of your day-to-day activities, and the mouse/keyboard interface is refined to perfection. 

 

I will even concede that there are benefits to staying on the desktop, whether it's on Windows 8 or Windows 7.  But the point is this:  Microsoft is trying to pry you away from the desktop for a reason.  The desktop has failings that they want to address, and those failings are getting fixed now. 

 

Part of the problem for many anti-Windows 8 people is that you've learned to live with the failings of the desktop:  your computer bogging down or starting up slowly because you have too many applications running, having to reboot on a reasonably frequent basis, worrying about malware infections or keystroke loggers, and managing your files and folders in some non-standard hierarchy that you may have created -- or that an app may have created for you. 

 

All of these are impossible in Windows 8, and for good reason.

 

Windows 8 suspends background apps to keep your computer running smoothly.  It sandboxes apps to prevent malware.  It automatically updates your apps so you always have the newest version.  It has a new file picker to ensure you can't save stuff in some absurd place that made sense when you made that hasty 5 second decision.  But Microsoft can't market any of this:  it's too boring.  So instead they encourage you to "click in" with a fun new keyboard because it's sexier.

 

As for your beloved start menu:  think about how many times a software vendor put something somewhere unexpected in a place that made it hard to find.  That's why it's gone, along with all the custom installers, and worse, the uninstallers that didn't always work.

 

There are a million other improvements under the hood.  But everyone's focusing only on what they see:  the UI.  The "ugly" start screen, the lack of a start menu, and full screen apps.  But Windows 8 is far more than just a new UI.

 

Microsoft didnt' take a perfectly good operating system and slap a new, touch based UI onto their desktop and gasp! take away your precious start menu out of spite. They are trying to fix things that are genuine problems that we all deal with, and they're doing that with what is effectively a whole new operating system. 

 

You are being transitioned to Windows 8 slowly, and developers are being given time to catch up and build apps for the new operating system.  Eventually you will want to play a game or run an app that is made only for the Modern OS.  And that's when you'll be forced to make the switch.

 

You can stay on the desktop if you choose to, but Windows 8 and its sandboxing/new file picker/app suspension is here to stay. 

 

Microsoft has had more than a decade to perfect mouse and keyboard.  In time, they will perfect mouse, keyboard, touch, Kinect, voice and whatever else the future throws at us too .  It will take time before they can perfect all of these input systems the way they have mouse.

 

All of this is not to say that I think everyone should switch tomorrow:  a bookkeeper can't do his job without QuickBooks -- Windows 8/Metro is a non-starter for him.  Windows 8 has lots of bugs in the OS itself, and you have to ask yourself whether that tradeoff is worth it to you.  Those bugs will be squashed, Quickbooks will come out for the Modern UI, and just like transitioning from DOS to Windows eventually made sense, so will the transition to the Modern OS.

 

All of this is just my two cents.  I have no doubt that many will disagree.  But for me, I like Windows 8 and I think it's a step in the right direction.  More importantly, I think it is both necessary and evolutionary.