The return of the Start menu in future Windows 8.1 update: Thoughts?

[Dadwen]

 

Microsoft didn't block the option to make 8 look like an older version; they just didn't provide the tools themselves. And IMO they shouldn't be expected to, They shouldn't have to maintain multiple UIs, not when there are plenty of third parties to provide alternate looks.

 

It's not like they advertised the option to use Progman in Win95 (I only learned about it last year!), or provided it at all in XP and 7. You were basically stuck with the Menu, unless you used third party tools.

 

To me "blocking" implies that tools to add a menu wouldn't have worked well without a lot of effort. That isn't the case - they're easier to use than any of the earlier shell programs. (I tried them all in an effort to avoid using the Menu, and never found one to my liking.)

 

If MS were blocking such tools, then why does 8.1 remove its Start button to make room for the one the Menu tools place on the taskbar?

 

Wonderful . . . a list :rolleyes:

 

What's the next innovation, command line as the default launcher? If we have to get an old design back, why not Program Manager? :angry: Now that was a good design!

 

As I said you can still have the Progman look in windows 95-98-2000-xp-vista-7 Create some folders on your desktop and put some shortcuts in it, bam you have a similar experience to the old progman, and in the first pre-release of 8 there was a way to edit a registry to get a start menu back and they took all that out so it was possible to have it.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Looking good

 

I'm more interested in the fact that Metro apps are now running in a window on the desktop.  :|

[Setnom]

At last, a native choice! I'm happy with the return of the start menu and even happy with how it looks now. Let's see what customization options we'll get.

[DConnell Member]

   

As I said you can still have the Progman look in windows 95-98-2000-xp-vista-7 Create some folders on your desktop and put some shortcuts in it, bam you have a similar experience to the old progman, and in the first per-release of 8 there was a way to edit a registry to get a start menu back and they took all that out so it was possible to have it.

 

I was largely being facetious. I just don't get why this one antiquated program launcher - the menu - is held in such high regard when it was so badly done. Program Manager has some of the benefits of the Screen - whitespace for easy scanning, easy organization, easy grouping - right on the desktop. If any old design is a suitable alternate to the Screen, it's Progman, at least if you choose to limit yourself to just the desktop.

 

I'm not a fan of a lot of stuff on the desktop. It's just clutter to me. Besides, nested folders is just another form of the menu maze. I vastly prefer the flat presentation of the Screen. No drilling down into submenus/folders needed.

 

Plus, I do use some Modern apps along with desktop programs. I wouldn't want to have to drop into the desktop just to launch programs. I prefer one launcher that works for either side.

[Dadwen]

 

I was largely being facetious. I just don't get why this one antiquated program launcher - the menu - is held in such high regard when it was so badly done. Program Manager has some of the benefits of the Screen - whitespace for easy scanning, easy organization, easy grouping - right on the desktop. If any old design is a suitable alternate to the Screen, it's Progman, at least if you choose to limit yourself to just the desktop.

 

I'm not a fan of a lot of stuff on the desktop. It's just clutter to me. Besides, nested folders is just another form of the menu maze. I vastly prefer the flat presentation of the Screen. No drilling down into submenus/folders needed.

 

Plus, I do use some Modern apps along with desktop programs. I wouldn't want to have to drop into the desktop just to launch programs. I prefer one launcher that works for either side.

 

I like keeping the desktop simi clean but I also hate leaving the screen I'm working on to find a program I may need to run once in rare while. the old start menu I could get to what I wanted most of the time with 3 clicks, never flip to a different screen, and to arrange them in folders was fairly easy and not like playing a cheap Chinese rip off of tetris to get the icons to stay where i want them too. (guess it does not help I've yet to find a Metro app I've had a use for, the few I thought I'd like were not as good as going to the web page version of what I wanted)

[DConnell Member]

   

I like keeping the desktop simi clean but I also hate leaving the screen I'm working on to find a program I may need to run once in rare while. the old start menu I could get to what I wanted most of the time with 3 clicks, never flip to a different screen, and to arrange them in folders was fairly easy and not like playing a cheap Chinese rip off of tetris to get the icons to stay where i want them too. (guess it does not help I've yet to find a Metro app I've had a use for, the few I thought I'd like were not as good as going to the web page version of what I wanted)

 

I don't really get the complaint about "leaving the screen I'm working on". How is invoking the menu any less leaving your work? Yes, you can see it, but you can't interact with it without deactivating the menu. Personally, I put more importance on finding stuff faster than on the visual continuity.

 

If you have either the Screen or the Menu up, you're currently focused on that. At that moment you're working on finding the program you want to launch. So why not devote more/all of the screen to that task, so you can get it done faster and get back to what you were going before ( or get started on the new program)?

 

Frankly, to me having most of your screen just showing your desktop or programs in the background is a waste of space. That space could be more effectively used for what you're working on at that moment, which is finding a program.

 

Screen space isn't at a premium like it was in 1995. Why should the program launcher be relegated to a tiny corner any more?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

I love how little by little MS is implementing pretty much all of the things that certain people on here claimed were absolutely unnecessary

 

- Start button

- boot to desktop

- visible power icon

- visible search icons in apps

- task bar visible in Metro apps

- Metro apps listed on the task bar

- search sidebar that defaults to a systemwide search

- Start menu

- option to disable hot corners on the Desktop

- windowed Metro apps

- Metro/Win32 default file associations for music/videos/pictures  based on the form factor 

 

... :D

[Dadwen]

 

I don't really get the complaint about "leaving the screen I'm working on". How is invoking the menu any less leaving your work? Yes, you can see it, but you can't interact with it without deactivating the menu. Personally, I put more importance on finding stuff faster than on the visual continuity.

 

If you have either the Screen or the Menu up, you're currently focused on that. At that moment you're working on finding the program you want to launch. So why not devote more/all of the screen to that task, so you can get it done faster and get back to what you were going before ( or get started on the new program)?

 

Frankly, to me having most of your screen just showing your desktop or programs in the background is a waste of space. That space could be more effectively used for what you're working on at that moment, which is finding a program.

 

Screen space isn't at a premium like it was in 1995. Why should the program launcher be relegated to a tiny corner any more?

 

Wow most of the time with the start menu I never put that much effort into finding a program as it seems you do, most of the time I barely glance away from what I'm working on while I'm running the mouse over to it, and never really had to "focus" on finding it.

[DConnell Member]

I love how little by little MS is implementing pretty much all of the things that certain people on here claimed were absolutely unnecessary

 

- Start button

- boot to desktop

- visible power icon

- visible search icons in apps

- task bar visible in Metro apps

- Metro apps listed on the task bar

- search sidebar that defaults to a systemwide search

- Start menu

- option to disable hot corners on the Desktop

- windowed Metro apps

- Metro/Win32 default file associations for music/videos/pictures  based on the form factor 

 

... :D

 

And most of that I'll be disabling, because it is unnecessary for me.

 

Frankly, I'd rather have desktop apps running in Modern than Modern on the desktop.

 

And I absolutely don't want the Start Menu or boot to desktop. I'm not a desktop-only user, and I don't want to be made into one.

 

File associations should be based on which side you're running in at the moment, not form factor. Context-based, not form-factor based. If I click a PDF link in Modern IE on my laptop, I don't want to be dropped onto the desktop waiting for Acrobat to load when the built-in PDF viewer would suffice (or vice-versa). And opening a picture on the desktop on my Surface should launch the desktop Picture Viewer, not the pictures app.

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

File associations should be based on which side you're running in at the moment, not form factor. 

Yes, probably.

[scumdogmillionaire]

I don't miss the start menu honestly. However, this does look pretty good. Not sure i'll use it, but the implementation is pretty nice. My only issue is that by the time this is released Windows 8 will be two years old and by then its kind of a "what's the point?" update. Just my opinion.

[HawkMan]

Yes, probably.

 

They are since 8.1 or so. or was that somethign in update 1. either way photos are supposed to open in a desktop viewer if you open from the desktop unless you've specified otherwise. 

 

they have a point about that in some presentation about 8.1 or 8.1u1 the OS is more aware where you are in what you want to open in. so irfan view on the desktop photo viewer in metro. 

[Guest]

Wow didn't know this.  Can you somehow ditch the start screen now as with this it's rendered useless for me?

[bandit_liberty_rumble]

They are since 8.1 or so. or was that somethign in update 1. either way photos are supposed to open in a desktop viewer if you open from the desktop unless you've specified otherwise. 

 

they have a point about that in some presentation about 8.1 or 8.1u1 the OS is more aware where you are in what you want to open in. so irfan view on the desktop photo viewer in metro. 

As far as I'm aware, only the default file associations were changed in 8.1u1, but in a systemwide fashion, so regardless of whether you're in Tileworld or on the Desktop. Where it used to simply default to Metro apps regardless of the form factor used, it will now default to Win32 app if your device lacks touch support.

[Setnom]

I don't really get the complaint about "leaving the screen I'm working on". How is invoking the menu any less leaving your work? Yes, you can see it, but you can't interact with it without deactivating the menu. Personally, I put more importance on finding stuff faster than on the visual continuity.

 

If you have either the Screen or the Menu up, you're currently focused on that. At that moment you're working on finding the program you want to launch. So why not devote more/all of the screen to that task, so you can get it done faster and get back to what you were going before ( or get started on the new program)?

 

When I'm watching small videos (in terms of size, like 480p, for example, some TV show), I like to do other stuff while watching them. If I need to use the start screen, it goes fullscreen and I can't pay attention to the images anymore. With the start menu if I need to use it, it doesn't cover up the window so I can still keep watching the video.

 

Example:

 

Hopefully with my example you get the complaint a bit better.

[DConnell Member]

They are since 8.1 or so. or was that somethign in update 1. either way photos are supposed to open in a desktop viewer if you open from the desktop unless you've specified otherwise. 

 

they have a point about that in some presentation about 8.1 or 8.1u1 the OS is more aware where you are in what you want to open in. so irfan view on the desktop photo viewer in metro. 

 

Using "Open with . . ." has become second nature in Explorer - with pictures especially I rarely use the same program twice in a row. Once time I want the Picture Viewer, the next I want Image Pro to edit, the next Paint for a quick & dirty resize.

 

"Open with" needs to be added to the Onedrive app/Modern Explorer.

[DConnell Member]

When I'm watching small videos (in terms of size, like 480p, for example, some TV show), I like to do other stuff while watching them. If I need to use the start screen, it goes fullscreen and I can't pay attention to the images anymore. With the start menu if I need to use, it doesn't cover up the window so I can still keep watching the video.

 

Example:

 

Hopefully with my example you get the complaint a bit better.

 

Good point. Videos would be an exception.

 

But for most things - Word, Excel - that wouldn't be an issue. Even for music, that would keep running in the background.

[Setnom]

But for most things - Word, Excel - that wouldn't be an issue. Even for music, that would keep running in the background.

 

Very true. My main beef is just entertainment-wise, but remember, not all software that people use for work allow this type of "intermitent" use (where we can "pause", go use the start screen, and resume working). Other professional software display a constant stream of data (off the top of my head, scientific software or software that deals with stocks, for example), so the fact that the start screen covers the entire monitor can be a disadvantage.

[DaveGreen93]

you doing it wrong,

after you press "WinKey" you can immediately press keyboard's keys for search, as added bonus: you can still view your other works as it wont be obscured by screen full of tiles.

 

I've never really understood this argument. I press the Win key and my attention is purely focused on the start menu. If I want to look at my work, I close the start menu to focus on that. Same goes with the Start screen.

 

I am however happy with the choice of the start menu coming back, cause y'know.. Choices are good.

 

 

Edit: Should probably have read a bit further. Looks like it's being discussed just up there ^

[DConnell Member]

Very true. My main beef is just entertainment-wise, but remember, not all software that people use for work allow this type of "intermitent" use (where we can "pause", go use the start screen, and resume working). Other professional software display a constant stream of data (off the top of my head, scientific software or software that deals with stocks, for example), so the fact that the start screen covers the entire monitor can be a disadvantage.

 

Valid point, and a good illustration of why providing options is the way to go, rather than simply giving us one or the other. What works for one person is unworkable for others.

[theyarecomingforyou]

<snip>

1) The Start Screen works fine with mouse only, even the all apps. Certainly the Start Screen is a huge improvement over the Vista-era Start Menu that truncated folders and applications because it was fixed width.

2) I'd argue that it's not a major issue. Generally the Start Screen is used to launch an app - since Windows 7 people pin their most used apps to the taskbar and the rest to the Start Screen, making the process very quick. Going fullscreen has advantages (displaying more apps, better customisation, etc). Certainly I understand the criticism.

3) The Start Menu was virtually unusable for finding apps because folders and application names were truncated. It was ridiculous to use such a small area of the screen, especially as monitor sizes and resolutions have increased.

4) Third-party options are fine but I don't think they should be considered, as users shouldn't have to resort to them.

5) It's always a compromise. The Ribbon UI in Office would never have taken off if it was optional and it genuinely improved usability.

 

You seem to have a problem accepted that some users like the Start Screen and consider it an improvement to the Start Menu. People seem to be acting like the Start Menu is returning when it's substantially different to what we had before. If Microsoft does this properly it could be the perfect hybrid between the two. At the end of the day I want what works best - the Start Menu was terrible, the Start Screen was an improvement and this looks like it could be better again.

Edited April 3, 2014 by zhangm

[zhangm Supervisor]

Comments edited. Please keep the fanboy name calling out of this thread.

[cork1958]

About freaking time they came to their senses!!

 

Exactly why Windows 8 didn't have the take off they hoped for and exactly why I've had to down grade so many computers!

 

Crap! That's going to take work away from me!! :huh:

[George P Global Moderator]

Most of that "list" in the menu screenshot is the same old "recent apps" feature that I always turned off, the menu for me just had less important things pinned to it that I didn't want to pin to the taskbar.  Now I'm sure they'll tweak it a bit more before this update goes out so we'll see, but really I'll just pin tiles to it like a pinned apps and call it a day.

 

I'm much more interested in where they'll go with the taskbar in Windows 9 now, the menu for me is of less importance than updating the taskbar to better support live tiles.   Also on the flip side I'd like to see updates to the start screen in 9, the task switcher needs to be updated to act more like a taskbar for touch as well IMO.  And the live tiles should borrow jump lists from the desktop, that'd be a cool option to have for store apps.

[Quillz]

Aero is absolutely horrible.  I got a new SSD and I figured I would go back to Windows 7.  I have a GTX 680 and a 27" monitor (2560x1440).  When i played games I got warnings that my computer is running slow and to consider turning off aero.  I upgraded to Windows 8 and don't have any issues.

 

I am glad they are bringing this back.  I can finally get rid of Start8 on every one of my Windows 8 installs. 

Do note Aero Glass =/= Aero. Win8 still has Aero, which is more or less equivalent to the DWM, it just doesn't have the Aero Glass theme. (Although even that can be brought back to Win8).

 

I'm glad to see the Start menu returning in Win8... Not that I really wanted it back, but the option to use it is always nice. Win8 has improved a lot since it was first released, though I personally wish this upcoming release was called Win8.2, following by Win8.3, etc.

 

EDIT: My biggest problem with the Windows desktop remains the out-of-place icons. Please, Microsoft, please... Update all the system icons to look like Metro/Modern, rather than the 9x/XP/Vista-era mix we have now.