The return of the Start menu in future Windows 8.1 update: Thoughts?

[George P Global Moderator]

Sure you do.

 

How is Windows 8 marketshare doing?  Windows Phone?  Surface? 

 

How about Android?  iOS?

 

 

I don't see a surge of people adopting Metro at all.  So if people aren't coming to the platform, but you don't see masses leaving either, what would you glean from that?

 

 

I'd say people made their decisions before Windows 8 came out and have seen no reason to change them.  Rebellion by non-adoption.

 

You're making a big assumption about something when there's other things at play.   Assuming the UI is the only factor in everything is wrong.  Surface is not a volume play, it's price reflects that, yet they've been selling every unit they've been making since the start of the 2nd gen roll out (they go out of stock often, so I'd say they're matching demand just fine).

 

Windows phone's share is growing, even in the US, but people want to overlook these things.   More OEMs have now signed up as well with 8.1 as we've seen.

 

The Windows 8 marketshare bit has a number of factors at play, regardless it's going up, just pretty slow.  UI aside, the need to upgrade for many isn't there, look at how XP is holding on, nothing is stopping people from going to Windows 7 yet they're not even doing that.  Fact is for the majority it's enough for them to keep their old PC and or just switch to using their new smartphone or tablet, the market has changed overall, PCs aren't the only way to get on the internet anymore. I don't see non-adaption, I see slow adaption in all areas.  Before Windows 8/8.1, we had zero Windows tablet market, now there is, though small. 

[snaphat (Myles Landwehr) Member]

Windows phone's share is growing, even in the US, but people want to overlook these things.   More OEMs have now signed up as well with 8.1 as we've seen.

Also, I feel it's silly to to equate the PC UI adoption to the phone UI adoption as is being done here. These platforms are completely form factors. I would hazard a guess that consumers who dislike metro on a regular PC probably aren't using it as a basis to dislike WP. 

[T3X4S]

I think its safe to say nobody in this thread is in a management position not in the tech arena

 

The feelings of techies in neowin are not the same as most of the public - something nobody has mentioned yet.

[MorganX]

Touch enables better input - Instead of a 1x1px x/y plot point, I have 10 fingers which can be utilized for input.

 

While your math is correct, it doesn't translate to real world application on the desktop. That's the same miscalculation Microsoft made. They're doing pretty well in their search for a happy medium.

[MorganX]

Also, I feel it's silly to to equate the PC UI adoption to the phone UI adoption as is being done here. These platforms are completely form factors. I would hazard a guess that consumers who dislike metro on a regular PC probably aren't using it as a basis to dislike WP. 

 

100% agree. The Asus Vivo Tab Note 8 finally gets the tablet right and I don't miss a keyboard as it's quite functional with touch. True Wacom digitizer, 8.1 Pro, 64GB for about $450. Be interesting to see how things go with Windows being free for 8" and smaller devices.

 

As for the phone, I think I'll be going back to WP with the Lumia 930. If it's basically a Lumia Icon, I'm in with WP 8.1. I'm not on Verizon but I checked out the Icon, gorgeous!

[adrynalyne]

You're making a big assumption about something when there's other things at play.   Assuming the UI is the only factor in everything is wrong.  Surface is not a volume play, it's price reflects that, yet they've been selling every unit they've been making since the start of the 2nd gen roll out (they go out of stock often, so I'd say they're matching demand just fine).

 

Windows phone's share is growing, even in the US, but people want to overlook these things.   More OEMs have now signed up as well with 8.1 as we've seen.

 

The Windows 8 marketshare bit has a number of factors at play, regardless it's going up, just pretty slow.  UI aside, the need to upgrade for many isn't there, look at how XP is holding on, nothing is stopping people from going to Windows 7 yet they're not even doing that.  Fact is for the majority it's enough for them to keep their old PC and or just switch to using their new smartphone or tablet, the market has changed overall, PCs aren't the only way to get on the internet anymore. I don't see non-adaption, I see slow adaption in all areas.  Before Windows 8/8.1, we had zero Windows tablet market, now there is, though small. 

I'm really not making any assumption.

 

Metro has not taken off...anywhere and customers have shown this by buying other things. 

[George P Global Moderator]

I'm really not making any assumption.

 

Metro has not taken off...anywhere and customers have shown this by buying other things. 

 

"Taken off" is what exactly?  As I said, there's growth in all areas where metro is being used, just slower.   WP is double digits in the EU, has been for quite some time, also growing in the US though lagging in Asia.   Windows tablets with it have went from being non-existent with 7 and it's non-touch friendly desktop UI to finally getting a foot in the door.   So yes, you're making an assumption, you're assuming slower Windows 8 PC share is only because of metro and the UI, when there's other factors in play that can easily explain the slowdown in the PC market that has been going on since Windows 7 actually.   At the end of the day customers ARE buying things with metro being it the new 8" tablets or phones or whatever, we can debate about it not being quick or slow and so on but there's clear growth so you're wrong about it in the end anyways.

[Ian S.]

Bringing back the Start Menu is the worst thing for moving forward. It proves they still can't seem to make bold decisions.

 

Instead they should make the start screen "snappable" 

[adrynalyne]

"Taken off" is what exactly?  As I said, there's growth in all areas where metro is being used, just slower.   WP is double digits in the EU, has been for quite some time, also growing in the US though lagging in Asia.   Windows tablets with it have went from being non-existent with 7 and it's non-touch friendly desktop UI to finally getting a foot in the door.   So yes, you're making an assumption, you're assuming slower Windows 8 PC share is only because of metro and the UI, when there's other factors in play that can easily explain the slowdown in the PC market that has been going on since Windows 7 actually.   At the end of the day customers ARE buying things with metro being it the new 8" tablets or phones or whatever, we can debate about it not being quick or slow and so on but there's clear growth so you're wrong about it in the end anyways.

 

Double digits, impressive. That wouldn't have anything to do with some attractively priced WP devices, would it?

 

You keep saying I am making an assumption, but can you name one device that has Metro on it that has taken off like wildfire?  A few percentage points a year isn't what I would call a win.  Maybe we can revisit this next decade when its amounted to something?

 

At the end of the day, consumers are buying Windows 8 devices because computers are getting harder to find without it.

 

If this is about something other than Windows 8, then how come Apple's PC sales aren't drying up?

 

http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/01/09/apples-domestic-mac-sales-surge-285-as-overall-pc-market-shrinks-75

 

Why do you think Microsoft is making so many changes to Windows 8?  Their customers aren't happy with it.

[PGHammer]

I never said, assumed or even implied their was only one way to do anything, I merely pointed out there are many less than ideal ways of doing anything, and that the - same experience across all devices - is stupid. The devices are not used the same way, nor should they be. I've re-read my post and am shaking my head how you came to this conclusion, maybe a MIS-assumption, on your part?

 

 

It's not just Neowin, people everywhere have mixed opinions of Metro and that doesn't make them pointing-device-centric users. I am a touch based user on my tablet and phone, but hate the idea of touch on the desktop. I propbably use touch more than a mouse, so again another MIS-assumption on your part? Maybe you should stop trying to find neat little catagories to place us in or finding labels for us, and accept that people don't like Metro for their own reasons. Maybe, we are simply tired of features being removed from Win 7, because they didn't fit with Win 8's Metro?

And how would I know any of that?

 

I don't even HAVE touch support on my desktop - I don't own a touch-screen, and have made that quite plain.

 

I'm not one of those that made the assumption that ModernUI is "all about touch" - only those criticizing ModerrnUI have said any such thing.

 

Yes; touch support iS improved in ModernUI - that is something I didn't dispute.  However, is the reality that touch support is improved entirely due to ModernUI?  I don't know that, and I refuse to assume it.

 

I find my desktop easier to use due to ModernUI - yet I have a traditional desktop.  Since I lack touch support altogether, that means it certainly can't be touch-screen support; so what is left?

 

The difference between myself and the critics of ModernUI is not touch support on desktops - by and large, we don't have any - by choice or other reasons.  The reality of the difference is that they are by and large pointing-device-centric on their Windows hardware - I am decidedly keyboard-centric.

[gameboy1977]

I am getting to understand this Windows 8.1 on my computer. I am very glad that start menu has returned to Windows 8.1 update very soon. I was not ready for Windows 8 until  latest of Windows 8.1 is better first then I can use it. I don't like Windows 8 what I read people's comment about Windows 8 on this neowin those day, so I can understand about this. I am ready to download new latest of Windows 8.1 update soon. :)

[Lord Method Man]

Bringing back the Start Menu is the worst thing for moving forward. It proves they still can't seem to make bold decisions.

 

Instead they should make the start screen "snappable" 

 

"Snapping" in metro is awful. Worst multitasking scheme I've ever used.

 

Microsoft made a bold decision, and it was the wrong one.

[Dot Matrix]

"Snapping" in metro is awful. Worst multitasking scheme I've ever used.

 

Microsoft made a bold decision, and it was the wrong one.

I disagree. I think it's more inline with efficient modern multitasking. I've seen (and have experienced this myself) too many users just get lost in numerous open windows. Something needs to happen here to streamline workflows. App snapping is just the start.  

 

I agree with what @Eiskis says "Manual window management is awful. Traditional desktop window paradigms are powerful but obsolete."

[Order_66]

I think its safe to say nobody in this thread is in a management position not in the tech arena

 

The feelings of techies in neowin are not the same as most of the public - something nobody has mentioned yet.

 

 

^this!

 

In the real world outside of neowin people are avoiding windows 8.x like the plague, I still have customers asking me if they can purchase a particular desktop or laptop with windows 7 instead of 8, this happens many times a day every single day.

[Ian S.]

I think its safe to say nobody in this thread is in a management position not in the tech arena

 

The feelings of techies in neowin are not the same as most of the public - something nobody has mentioned yet.

 

 

^this!

 

In the real world outside of neowin people are avoiding windows 8.x like the plague, I still have customers asking me if they can purchase a particular desktop or laptop with windows 7 instead of 8, this happens many times a day every single day.

 

 

Maybe where you live, but here many people are buying Windows 8/8.1 devices. Recently, my old school district fired the head tech guy for a rough transition to newer computers. They didn't put it that way of course, but all the teachers understood how bad he was. Anyways, those computers run Windows 8 and they are great, if the district spent more time and with someone capable of teaching them, they would have been able to master Windows 8 right away. Because they know I am a "tech guy" some of the teachers decided to create optional sessions of teaching 8 using videos I created. That worked out well and they decided to launch a BYOD program and did a survey on the type of device that would be brought by students. Plenty of those were hybrid Windows 8.x devices. Teachers also had an option of bringing their own device. Some brought macs, but again many brought PCs running 8. 

 

I don't know why anyone would recommend Windows 7 anymore. If you have it already? Great. Buying a new PC? Get 8.1. Recommending W7 is beyond me and doesn't benefit the user in the long run. What kind of "Tech guy" are you? Spreading FUD of Windows 8.x

[T3X4S]

Maybe where you live, but here many people are buying Windows 8/8.1 devices. Recently, my old school district fired the head tech guy for a rough transition to newer computers. They didn't put it that way of course, but all the teachers understood how bad he was. Anyways, those computers run Windows 8 and they are great, if the district spent more time and with someone capable of teaching them, they would have been able to master Windows 8 right away. Because they know I am a "tech guy" some of the teachers decided to create optional sessions of teaching 8 using videos I created. That worked out well and they decided to launch a BYOD program and did a survey on the type of device that would be brought by students. Plenty of those were hybrid Windows 8.x devices. Teachers also had an option of bringing their own device. Some brought macs, but again many brought PCs running 8. 

 

I don't know why anyone would recommend Windows 7 anymore. If you have it already? Great. Buying a new PC? Get 8.1. Recommending W7 is beyond me and doesn't benefit the user in the long run. What kind of "Tech guy" are you? Spreading FUD of Windows 8.x

Oh, then I guess the rampant rumors and general concensus that win8 was a failure in terms of the mass appeal was just an unfounded rumor....

And, the reason "many people here are buying win8/8.1 devices" is because that is what is on the market right now... many people dont even know the difference and cant understand the difference between Microsoft Windows, and Microsoft Office.

 

ians18 -  I am not doubting your tech prowess, for all I know you might be a genius.  But a common problem among tech people, myself included, is they think they know whats best for everyone & most of the time it is something they use/do.  Sure we may have knowledge of other options - but many times when the "tech guy" recommends something it is nothing more than him recommending what he himself likes... not was is best for the individual.  Of course best is a sort of relative term.

Im not sure who you were referring to when you said "what kind of 'tech guy' are you?", but if it was directed to me - I would say I am one of those that listen to people's needs, consider their situation, their technical skills, and their past experience and attempt to point them in the right direction.  If that means telling someone to go in the direction of a product or platform I do not like - then I will, and do it constantly.  I dont pretend to know what is best for everyone.  I also know that my little techie geek world is not a microcosm of the real world.  We debate, and compare things nobody else cares about, or even know exist.  If it wasnt directed to me, then I cant speak for another "tech guy".  I'll just say it is not always the job of the techie to push out the latest and greatest - there are more variables to consider, and like everything else in life, the more details you know, the more complicated an answer is.

In fact, the owner of the company loves the fact I give him unbiased answers, and translate the technical stuff to something he can easily understand without acting or feeling superior.  Many times I will tell him, I think the best solution is x, but I dont know how to use x, we would have to get an outside consultant for that.

Again, if you werent directing that comment at me, then I apologize for boring you to death with this post. :D

[DavidM]

Maybe where you live, but here many people are buying Windows 8/8.1 devices. Recently, my old school district fired the head tech guy for a rough transition to newer computers. They didn't put it that way of course, but all the teachers understood how bad he was. Anyways, those computers run Windows 8 and they are great, if the district spent more time and with someone capable of teaching them, they would have been able to master Windows 8 right away. Because they know I am a "tech guy" some of the teachers decided to create optional sessions of teaching 8 using videos I created. That worked out well and they decided to launch a BYOD program and did a survey on the type of device that would be brought by students. Plenty of those were hybrid Windows 8.x devices. Teachers also had an option of bringing their own device. Some brought macs, but again many brought PCs running 8. 

 

I don't know why anyone would recommend Windows 7 anymore. If you have it already? Great. Buying a new PC? Get 8.1. Recommending W7 is beyond me and doesn't benefit the user in the long run. What kind of "Tech guy" are you? Spreading FUD of Windows 8.x

 

I guess that scares me the most - you don't see anything wrong with needing to hire a "trainer" or to "find someone capable of teaching them" in order to use the new UI. That screams failure to me, and then you add that they didn't even include a real tutorial for the new users to follow, it makes me want to scream louder... but then the neighboors go on about it being 3 a.m.

[Ian S.]

I guess that scares me the most - you don't see anything wrong with needing to hire a "trainer" or to "find someone capable of teaching them" in order to use the new UI. That screams failure to me, and then you add that they didn't even include a real tutorial for the new users to follow, it makes me want to scream louder... but then the neighboors go on about it being 3 a.m.

It now does have a help+tips app. When people first got iPhones tech people had to teach the non-tech people that you could touch the icons, double tap the home button, pinch to zoom, etc. You learn to grow your knowledge and understanding. If we upgraded to 7 we probably would have someone teach everyone jumplists, previews, aero hide, aero snap as well.

 

 

Oh, then I guess the rampant rumors and general concensus that win8 was a failure in terms of the mass appeal was just an unfounded rumor....

And, the reason "many people here are buying win8/8.1 devices" is because that is what is on the market right now... many people dont even know the difference and cant understand the difference between Microsoft Windows, and Microsoft Office.

 

ians18 -  I am not doubting your tech prowess, for all I know you might be a genius.  But a common problem among tech people, myself included, is they think they know whats best for everyone & most of the time it is something they use/do.  Sure we may have knowledge of other options - but many times when the "tech guy" recommends something it is nothing more than him recommending what he himself likes... not was is best for the individual.  Of course best is a sort of relative term.

Im not sure who you were referring to when you said "what kind of 'tech guy' are you?", but if it was directed to me - I would say I am one of those that listen to people's needs, consider their situation, their technical skills, and their past experience and attempt to point them in the right direction.  If that means telling someone to go in the direction of a product or platform I do not like - then I will, and do it constantly.  I dont pretend to know what is best for everyone.  I also know that my little techie geek world is not a microcosm of the real world.  We debate, and compare things nobody else cares about, or even know exist.  If it wasnt directed to me, then I cant speak for another "tech guy".  I'll just say it is not always the job of the techie to push out the latest and greatest - there are more variables to consider, and like everything else in life, the more details you know, the more complicated an answer is.

In fact, the owner of the company loves the fact I give him unbiased answers, and translate the technical stuff to something he can easily understand without acting or feeling superior.  Many times I will tell him, I think the best solution is x, but I dont know how to use x, we would have to get an outside consultant for that.

Again, if you werent directing that comment at me, then I apologize for boring you to death with this post. :D

It was more to Order_66 :) but I believe that the tech community has understanding of what is best for the consumer (in the tech world of course).

[T3X4S]

It now does have a help+tips app. When people first got iPhones tech people had to teach the non-tech people that you could touch the icons, double tap the home button, pinch to zoom, etc. You learn to grow your knowledge and understanding. If we upgraded to 7 we probably would have someone teach everyone jumplists, previews, aero hide, aero snap as well.

 

 

It was more to Order_66 :) but I believe that the tech community has understanding of what is best for the consumer (in the tech world of course).

Hehe, I surely dont know.... hell I dont even know what is best for me !

[Ian S.]

Now that the Modern UI apps run windowed and have so much mouse friendly stuff (as seen with the new store) will we get apps like iPad or ones that are mouse optimized? Ugh.

[Suburban Errorist]

Bringing back the Start Menu is the worst thing for moving forward. It proves they still can't seem to make bold decisions.

 

Instead they should make the start screen "snappable" 

Yeah, stupid Microsoft, listening to what their customer wants.

[Suburban Errorist]

I don't know why anyone would recommend Windows 7 anymore. If you have it already? Great. Buying a new PC? Get 8.1. Recommending W7 is beyond me and doesn't benefit the user in the long run. What kind of "Tech guy" are you? Spreading FUD of Windows 8.x

 

If I may.

First of all, it's called being cautious. The point of being the "tech guy" isn't to promote the newest, shiniest product on the market, it's to provide the user with a smooth user experience. At this point, Windows 7 is secure, stable, and is compatible with the hardware and software available on the market today. By recommending the user Windows 7, the user will be able to use the computer, and install and run any applications he or she might need to use for their daily work without too much hassle.

The average worker, say, an accountant, doesn't care about the difference between the Metro UI or the Aero interface, he just wants to make sure that once they get their new computers, he would be able to run his accounting package immediately, so that he can catch up on the time wasted during the upgrade period. Say that they've upgraded to Win 8, and for some odd reason, the package wouldn't run. That means he would be unable to do his job, and it's your fault, the "tech guy", for installing Windows 8, thus making it impossible for the accountant to do his job. It's just playing it safe.

Also, they don't want to spend an hour (or more) in a workshop on how to use Windows 8. They don't care, to them, that's just time wasted. Sure there are those that don't mind, and those that are too glad to get an hour or so off their working hours, but to most of them, attending a "Windows 8 Workshop" is just a waste of time.

 

Hey, we might think computers are logical machines, but sometimes, they have these weird flukes that can happen and no one can figure out. I've worked in tech support, and the moment I hear the words "system upgrade", chills run through my spine, since that would mean getting calls for all sorts of weird problems, especially undocumented ones.

[T3X4S]

....

 

Hey, we might think computers are logical machines, but sometimes, they have these weird flukes that can happen and no one can figure out. I've worked in tech support, and the moment I hear the words "system upgrade", chills run through my spine, since that would mean getting calls for all sorts of weird problems, especially undocumented ones.

^  I always tell people, "I've been doing this long enough to know these things have a mind of their own.... or its Gremlins.  One of the two."

[Suburban Errorist]

^  I always tell people, "I've been doing this long enough to know these things have a mind of their own.... or its Gremlins.  One of the two."

It's those damned Gremlins, I tell you.

[blerk]

I guess that scares me the most - you don't see anything wrong with needing to hire a "trainer" or to "find someone capable of teaching them" in order to use the new UI. That screams failure to me, and then you add that they didn't even include a real tutorial for the new users to follow, it makes me want to scream louder... but then the neighboors go on about it being 3 a.m.

 

What's the problem with teaching someone a new UI? I've had to teach people how to transition from XP->Vista->7, and those interfaces were pretty similar. Same with OSX, iOS, Android and virtually every other tech-related item in general.