The return of the Start menu in future Windows 8.1 update: Thoughts?

[ThisSiteHasLostItsCharm]

It's outdated. We currently live in an app-centric world, and many modern operating systems are being designed around this. Take a look at Mac OSX, iOS, Android, etc. Currently, the Start Menu hides things away from the user. You have to dig, dig, and dig some more to locate what you're looking for (If you're for whatever reason against using Search, which, c'mon, there's no reason not to use it). People don't want to do that (which is why you always see them clutter their desktops with junk). It's also limited in capacity. You can only pin so many apps to it, before you reach your limit (depending on the size of your screen).

 

These are just a few of the issues Microsoft is facing that I can think of off the top of my head. Like I said, these times are changing, and this is nothing more than Microsoft adapting to new market trends. You can't blame them for doing that, as the changes to Windows are needed if it is to remain relevant.

 

not everyone is a tablet freak who sits on the bus/train fiddling about on twitter and facebook.

 

people still have desktops and laptops and like the desktop interface and startmenu. personally i couldn't care less about "apps". it's the ones i have installed that i care about, not the social network integrated app rubbish.

 

I'll take the best of both worlds, a new os with old features. metro has no place on a pc that sits on a desktop imo. I cringe everytime i see people swiping the start screen on tv shows in blatant microsoft advertising, it's sad. the startmenu and desktop has as much right to stick around as any other old feature.

 

 

sorry man but you sound like an advert for change and a bit fanboyish of microsoft. not everything new and fresh is "cool". I still use XP in a virtual machine, play dos and 3.1 games and use vista on another computer.

 

 

I won't say 8/8.1 is rubbish but they made some bad design choices and bringing back old features will keep the long time customers coming back. I originally tried 8.0 and found it buggy and unstable, i waited for 8.1 and am now using it full time.

[Noir Angel]

By doing what, exactly? Allowing developers to tarnish the Windows desktop again by creating crappy applications using old and archaic APIs?

 

Strange, I haven't found the quality of desktop apps to have declined at all, in fact they're just as feature rich, stable, and more importantly far less ugly than any metro equivalents.

 

Funny thing, all these people who hate Windows 8 because some techie friend told them to who come back to the store(because the store failed to start with and didn't spend 30 seconds telling him this to start with) They're all happy Windows 8 users and love it more than 7 after I spend those 30 seconds, explaining how it's the same as windows 7 but with a new bigger start menu/screen that they can fully customize easily. 

 

After I just show them the start screen on a demo computer and just tell them it's just another start menu launcher, they're happy, and wondering what kind of crack their so called techie friends are smoking. of course those techie friends are clueless idiots who could barely run  windows install, but... that's what techie friends usually are. theyr'e the guy who can copy and paste in word...

 

Funny tropes, but for the most part completely stupid as well. I know plenty of people that are actually tech literate that still don't like the design changes made to Windows. About time you grew up really and stopped slinging childish insults at people for wanting their computers to work the way they want instead of the way you say they should.

[Dot Matrix]

not everyone is a tablet freak who sits on the bus/train fiddling about on twitter and facebook.

 

people still have desktops and laptops and like the desktop interface and startmenu. personally i couldn't care less about "apps". it's the ones i have installed that i care about, not the social network integrated app rubbish.

 

I'll take the best of both worlds, a new os with old features. metro has no place on a pc that sits on a desktop imo. I cringe everytime i see people swiping the start screen on tv shows in blatant microsoft advertising, it's sad. the startmenu and desktop has as much right to stick around as any other old feature.

Good news then. There's other tablet and smartphone applications other than Twitter and Facebook available for use. Perhaps you should give them a try?

[MorganX]

 

Based on my own experiences if I was a large corporation or government agency I wouldn't touch 8 even if it was free and I'd wait for 9 in hopes that they listen to their user base and soften the learning curve to make adoption easier.  In my experience with 8 thus far I can say they did a horrible job and created possibly the first Dissociative Identity Disorder computer operating system.

 

Have to keep the discussion current. We're at 8.1U1. Not 8.0 RTM. Corporations could have gone with 8.0 as many primarily develop their own in-house apps and definitely restrict the desktop footprint. Many huge corporations are actually single-tasking as far as the majority of desktop users go. Government on the other-hand, are the same until you get into State and Local government with smaller budgets and staff, with the same computing and support needs. 8.1U1 is much closer to 7, and the reasons to not upgrade are getting slimmer. 8.1U2 with the return of the Start Menu should eliminate the only major hurdle in that sector preventing upgrading.

 

The only other thing that really needs to be done to open the flood gates is total control of the Start Page (should you choose to boot to it) and maybe the ability to prevent it's launch completely, via GPO.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Good news then. There's other tablet and smartphone applications other than Twitter and Facebook available for use. Perhaps you should give them a try?

What remains to be seen is Tablet and Smartphone apps that can enable dense creative workflows. Everyone here makes heavy use of their Smartphones and, to some degree, their Tablets to power consumption. When you're using "app centric" apps you're usually willing to accept their very limited power due to the form factor you're working with. I don't complain that my Twitter app on Android only allows me to do a small limited set of things...

 

I think the "app" focused changes MS is making cause a lot of disdain for heavily technical users; power users. I don't think Metro or even Windows Phone are really geared in any fashion to the power user crowd...

 

But since MS seems to be making some good steps to throw power users a bone. I'm keeping my eyes on what develops for Windows 8 post 8.1U2.

[deadonthefloor]

I believe they will make it the default option on a device that has keyboard and mouse attached during the update.

 

Then you'll have to dig through control panel settings to re-enable start screen functionality.

 

Other than that, some want it some don't.

 

I'm in the don't category, but if it gets more users on 8.x I'm happy to change a default setting after upgrading.

[MorganX]

 metro has no place on a pc that sits on a desktop imo.

 

I agree with most of what you said excep this. The Modern RDP app is much more productive than the Win32 client in many ways. If they have followed through and used OneDrive Sync, it would be even moreso. The Mail app is a fantastic light Outlook client, but MS forced the use of a Microsoft account (though now looking at new tech to deploy, Intune may allow the disabling of the MS account requirement on mobile devices).

 

Mint, if not lacking some functionality on the web page, is a great UI on the desktop without touch. The Alarm app, Lync (Metro), even facebooked snapped on a desktop is more productive than the traditional web page.

 

The main problem with Modern Apps on the desktop IMO, is they're all applets (minimal apps for quick consumption) or lacking significant functionality. Keep in mind, many devs are jumping on the "throw an applet together as fast as you can" and make some quick money bandwagon. I think that's why so many apps lack polish and functionality. I play AlphaJax all day long snapped, lol. Thinking about WSOP but that's a dangerous thing to do, prolly won't.

 

Even if it just results in better UIs for desktop apps, the potential on the desktop is clearly there.

[MorganX]

I think the "app" focused changes MS is making cause a lot of disdain for heavily technical users; power users. I don't think Metro or even Windows Phone are really geared in any fashion to the power user crowd...

One thing I don't see improving that needs to happen, is an intuitive, productive, capable, file management UI in Metro. When you can duplicate Win32 File Explorer in Metro, things could get interesting. Modern UI, unfortunately, was designed for a mouse-less, keyboard-less world. And File manipulation/management is something that just doesn't seem to translate well ... Even selecting a video to play, or picture to view in the Modern UI is a cumbersome chore.

[Dot Matrix]

One thing I don't see improving that needs to happen, is an intuitive, productive, capable, file management UI in Metro. When you can duplicate Win32 File Explorer in Metro, things could get interesting. Modern UI, unfortunately, was designed for a mouse-less, keyboard-less world. And File manipulation/management is something that just doesn't seem to translate well ... Even selecting a video to play, or picture to view in the Modern UI is a cumbersome chore.

How was Metro designed for a keyboard less world, when no one at all is taking that away?

[MorganX]

How was Metro designed for a keyboard less world, when no one at all is taking that away?

 

As it relates to this specific thread - it was designed for absolute minimal, and clumsy touch-based file management that hasn't been rectified yet. A major part of desktop keyboard/mouse computing.

 

As it relates to the design, Microsoft has stated many times that Metro was designed for touch, beginning with phones. Do not confuse "envisioned and designed for," with "does not work with." It does work with a keyboard and mouse, but there are certain things that clearly stumble because Metro was initially designed for touch. File management being one of them. It is not "unfixable," it just hasn't been fixed. The fix is if you have to do meaningful file management, use File Explorer in the Desktop Environment (and Win32) environment.

[Dot Matrix]

I think the "app" focused changes MS is making cause a lot of disdain for heavily technical users; power users. I don't think Metro or even Windows Phone are really geared in any fashion to the power user crowd...

This story has been told over, and over again. It's nothing new. The previous generation "power users" are always going to complain when things change. But, it'll gear a new generation of "power users" in their own regards. Let's see:

 

"I think the "desktop" focused changes MS is making cause a lot of disdain for heavy command line users; power users. I don't think the desktop is really geared in any fashion to the power user crowd..."

 

See? A few switches in the wording, but the story is still the same.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

One thing I don't see improving that needs to happen, is an intuitive, productive, capable, file management UI in Metro. When you can duplicate Win32 File Explorer in Metro, things could get interesting. Modern UI, unfortunately, was designed for a mouse-less, keyboard-less world. And File manipulation/management is something that just doesn't seem to translate well ... Even selecting a video to play, or picture to view in the Modern UI is a cumbersome chore.

I very much agree. It seems MS is taking the chance to not only refocus computing around the touch paradigm, but to also radically simplify it in the process.

 

This simplification is a godsend I think for average users, but it is very frustrating and limiting for technical users...

 

How was Metro designed for a keyboard less world, when no one at all is taking that away?

I'm not sure what you mean here... Yes you can still use the Keyboard to enter text... Metro is definitely designed to be controlled by touch. Keyboard and Mouse usage is added on because they are present on some devices.

[Dot Matrix]

As it relates to this specific thread - it was designed for absolute minimal, and clumsy touch-based file management that hasn't been rectified yet. A major part of desktop keyboard/mouse computing.

 

As it relates to the design, Microsoft has stated many times that Metro was designed for touch, beginning with phones. Do not confuse "envisioned and designed for," with "does not work with." It does work with a keyboard and mouse, but there are certain things that clearly stumble because Metro was initially designed for touch. File management being one of them. It is not "unfixable," it just hasn't been fixed. The fix is if you have to do meaningful file management, use File Explorer in the Desktop Environment (and Win32) environment.

 

 

I very much agree. It seems MS is taking the chance to not only refocus computing around the touch paradigm, but to also radically simplify it in the process.

 

This simplification is a godsend I think for average users, but it is very frustrating and limiting for technical users...

 

I'm not sure what you mean here... Yes you can still use the Keyboard to enter text... Metro is definitely designed to be controlled by touch. Keyboard and Mouse usage is added on because they are present on some devices.

While Metro is very much geared towards touch, it's still a UI meant to be used traditionally. I agree that Metro was missing too much at launch, but now there's been no issues in adapting. I like to think of Metro as a UI very much geared toward future devices, thanks to it's ability to adapt and expand per the device it's on. And when it comes down to it, there really isn't anything different with it functionality wise -  links are still links, icons are still icons, text fields are still text fields, etc...

[+LogicalApex MVC]

This story has been told over, and over again. It's nothing new. The previous generation "power users" are always going to complain when things change. But, it'll gear a new generation of "power users" in their own regards. Let's see:

 

"I think the "desktop" focused changes MS is making cause a lot of disdain for heavy command line users; power users. I don't think the desktop is really geared in any fashion to the power user crowd..."

 

See? A few switches in the wording, but the story is still the same.

On the surface it appears that way, but once you cut into it you realize that fundamentally it is very different this time around...

 

Microsoft isn't interested in only adjusting Windows, as they have in the past, they are working hard to redefine computing. Again, on the surface this seems good and to be applauded, but once you cut into it you see the guts aren't as pretty. Apple started a trend in computing that is still working its way through; computing as an appliance. Windows is being re-imagined in this paradigm where computing is an appliance. The hallmark of a power user is to alter their computing environment to match their vision, not the vision espoused by the vendor...

 

The current generation of complaining power users are complaining so loudly due to not only seeing themselves marginalized and unwanted, but also the fear of there being no future power users. Metro only devices offer users very little customization power and even developers working in those environments are severely handicapped. The OS is to be considered complete and "apps" are adding incing onto an already completed cake. If you don't like the OS overall you are to adopt something else... You aren't supposed to hack it to enable you to alter the stuff you don't like while keeping all that you do.

 

For now, Microsoft seems to be throwing power users a bone which is good, but the overall fear still remains. What does the future of computing look like in the MS space?

[DConnell Member]

One thing I don't see improving that needs to happen, is an intuitive, productive, capable, file management UI in Metro. When you can duplicate Win32 File Explorer in Metro, things could get interesting. Modern UI, unfortunately, was designed for a mouse-less, keyboard-less world. And File manipulation/management is something that just doesn't seem to translate well ... Even selecting a video to play, or picture to view in the Modern UI is a cumbersome chore.

 

As much as I like Metro on both portable and stationary machines, I have to agree with this. File management in Metro is very bad. Even on my SurfRT I hit the desktop to use Explorer for management.

[PGHammer]

On the surface it appears that way, but once you cut into it you realize that fundamentally it is very different this time around...

 

Microsoft isn't interested in only adjusting Windows, as they have in the past, they are working hard to redefine computing. Again, on the surface this seems good and to be applauded, but once you cut into it you see the guts aren't as pretty. Apple started a trend in computing that is still working its way through; computing as an appliance. Windows is being re-imagined in this paradigm where computing is an appliance. The hallmark of a power user is to alter their computing environment to match their vision, not the vision espoused by the vendor...

 

The current generation of complaining power users are complaining so loudly due to not only seeing themselves marginalized and unwanted, but also the fear of there being no future power users. Metro only devices offer users very little customization power and even developers working in those environments are severely handicapped. The OS is to be considered complete and "apps" are adding incing onto an already completed cake. If you don't like the OS overall you are to adopt something else... You aren't supposed to hack it to enable you to alter the stuff you don't like while keeping all that you do.

 

For now, Microsoft seems to be throwing power users a bone which is good, but the overall fear still remains. What does the future of computing look like in the MS space?

Thing is, computing IS different, and it revolves more around changes in hardware this time; however, the OS (Windows in this case) has not really tracked with the hardware changes.

 

Worse, a lot of users of Windows (despite the hardware changes) don't want to change how they USE Windows.

 

The OS has to fit the hardware AND how we use it - Windows, however, while it fits how we use it, is a poor (and getting poorer) fit for portable hardware.

 

Windows may be a great fit for the desktop formfactor - however, how well does it fit non-desktops?

 

Tablets, slates, etc., exist for a reason - regardless of what operating system is on them; it's called demand.

[PGHammer]

As much as I like Metro on both portable and stationary machines, I have to agree with this. File management in Metro is very bad. Even on my SurfRT I hit the desktop to use Explorer for management.

DConnell, that is because there really has been no alternative to the basic tree/twig/leaf file-exploration structure - not even on portable hardware that doesn't run Windows.  (Look at Android or iOS hardware, and not alone tablets - how is file navigation handled, if it is at all?)

 

it's not a Metro/ModernUI problem - it's a problem on every operating system known.  Nobody has solved it - and i have the nasty feeling that nobody WANTS to solve it, either.  It's almost the Ultimate Third Rail of all GUIs - mess with file navigation at your peril.

[George P Global Moderator]

As much as I like Metro on both portable and stationary machines, I have to agree with this. File management in Metro is very bad. Even on my SurfRT I hit the desktop to use Explorer for management.

 

Seeing how there's little file management to do in a pure metro environment they put the need for a file manager low on the list I bet.  That could change of course, if you're going to take the desktop out of future SKUs then there needs to be something to do management.   The OneDrive app will let you do some but nothing advanced.   There's also nothing stopping 3rd parties from making a file manager app and there are a few in the store right now.

 

If MS makes File Manager for Metro though then that'd be great, heck if they can do touch/metro version of Office apps without much issue then they can do File Manager as well.

[PGHammer]

Seeing how there's little file management to do in a pure metro environment they put the need for a file manager low on the list I bet.  That could change of course, if you're going to take the desktop out of future SKUs then there needs to be something to do management.   The OneDrive app will let you do some but nothing advanced.   There's also nothing stopping 3rd parties from making a file manager app and there are a few in the store right now.

 

If MS makes File Manager for Metro though then that'd be great, heck if they can do touch/metro version of Office apps without much issue then they can do File Manager as well.

George P - the issue is not unique to ModernUI; how well is file management (or even mere exploration) handled outside of Windows?  File-management applications largely take their cues from one of two overlong-in-the-tooth applications - Windows Explorer (which itself is a revamped File Manager from the days of Windows 3.x) or Apple's Finder.  OneDrive Explorer has basic (very basic) file management capabilities - however, to do the serious stuff, you still need Windows Explorer (which CAN be used with OneDrive - I use it with OneDrive today, as I did with predecessor SkyDrive).

 

However, the fear of the pointing-device-centric is that if Microsoft makes OneDrive Explorer better, it will obviate the need for not merely Windows Explorer, but it will be the beginning of the end for the desktop as a whole.

[Dashel]

Funny dot, you didn't mention the 101+ keys on a keyboard when you were comparing 5pt touch with mice.  So, somehow a mouse (and UI) is archaic, but a keyboard isn't.  That the Surface is sold without a keyboard is proof enough of his claim.

 

A great example of this is the new Samsung commercial, where they dis the Surface for being too 'laptop' like.  The point remains that instead of flamebaiting your betters here, you should be in the slate threads making a case against dumb slates that have only the most rudimentary support for non-touch.

 

The problem with Metro and file management, is that MS has done another 180 on good computing habits (like they did with application management).  While most power users launch off the file association, they've now heavily favored the app open approach.  Once you remove that, the need for a granular file manager falls away (as the location of data is less important when its in the cloud).  OneDrive is the Metro Explorer, local data is an archaic remnant of Desktop computing. ;)

[Salgoth]

Have to keep the discussion current. We're at 8.1U1. Not 8.0 RTM. Corporations could have gone with 8.0 as many primarily develop their own in-house apps and definitely restrict the desktop footprint. Many huge corporations are actually single-tasking as far as the majority of desktop users go. Government on the other-hand, are the same until you get into State and Local government with smaller budgets and staff, with the same computing and support needs. 8.1U1 is much closer to 7, and the reasons to not upgrade are getting slimmer. 8.1U2 with the return of the Start Menu should eliminate the only major hurdle in that sector preventing upgrading.

 

The only other thing that really needs to be done to open the flood gates is total control of the Start Page (should you choose to boot to it) and maybe the ability to prevent it's launch completely, via GPO.

Agree.  The learning curve and employee training (i.e. lost productivity) is a major killer as the OS stands now.

[Salgoth]

OneDrive is the Metro Explorer, local data is an archaic remnant of Desktop computing. ;)

I disagree.   Everyone I talk to is seriously reconsidering "cloud storage" in light of everything disclosed by Snowden, etc.  At this point businesses especially are probably looking at how fast they can reverse course and get control of their data back because the reality is that the only truly secure storage IS local storage.

[Dashel]

I disagree.   Everyone I talk to is seriously reconsidering "cloud storage" in light of everything disclosed by Snowden, etc.  At this point businesses especially are probably looking at how fast they can reverse course and get control of their data back because the reality is that the only truly secure storage IS local storage.

That is FUD.  Office365 carries full privacy protection for businesses and meets privacy standards (like HIPPA).  MS has also reversed course on the 'scanning' of unshared personal files.  A search order of the data by the Feds would be valid regardless of where the data is held.  The Snowden leak isn't really apples to apples here.

 

Smart companies are implementing a hybrid approach, not one or the other, if they are that concerned about a subset of highly sensitive data (which is more of a backup/archival concern than a privacy one).  That's really beside my point though, as the OneDrive app also looks locally too.

[Dot Matrix]

Funny dot, you didn't mention the 101+ keys on a keyboard when you were comparing 5pt touch with mice.  So, somehow a mouse (and UI) is archaic, but a keyboard isn't.  That the Surface is sold without a keyboard is proof enough of his claim.

 

A great example of this is the new Samsung commercial, where they dis the Surface for being too 'laptop' like.  The point remains that instead of flamebaiting your betters here, you should be in the slate threads making a case against dumb slates that have only the most rudimentary support for non-touch.

 

The problem with Metro and file management, is that MS has done another 180 on good computing habits (like they did with application management).  While most power users launch off the file association, they've now heavily favored the app open approach.  Once you remove that, the need for a granular file manager falls away (as the location of data is less important when its in the cloud).  OneDrive is the Metro Explorer, local data is an archaic remnant of Desktop computing. ;)

I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

[Salgoth]

A search order of the data by the Feds would be valid regardless of where the data is held. 

Except if they showed up with a court order at your place of business at least you could call your lawyer and see the warrant.  A FISA order comes with a gag so the provider CAN'T tell you they have surrendered your data.  Equally as troubling to me is that I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that every ToS agreement for cloud storage contains blanket provisions prohibiting lawsuits in the event of a data breach. 

 

Call me a Luddite, but I'll keep my important data locally thank you!  For me the cloud is an option for only casual data i.e. vacation photos, recipes, etc.