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If the ESPN comes to the ps4 with a different layout but a UI that is still tailored for the tv, then that is all it needs to match the X1. Netflix did the same thing and that is why I said it is not an example of a unique experience.

So when the ESPN app comes to the ps4, then it will have ceased being a unique experience for the X1. As of today, it is only on the X1. So would you say that right now, in the present day, it offers a bit of value that you can't get elsewhere?

 

Nope, for the reasons I gave above. If it had content or features that were exclusive, then I'd agree with you.

 

If the ESPN website was redesigned tomorrow to a sleeker / easy to navigate UI on par with the app, would the X1/360 version still be of good "value"? ;)

 

Well if MS helped with the app, then I think that matters. If you don't know what work they did with ESPN, how can you assume it was superficial at best?

I mean its not about the dollar amount. This goes back to the idea that if MS helps build an app, that makes more of an 'exclusive' experience. They treated the ESPN (and the NFL app) as a special case, making a huge deal out of it and going as far as partnering with the groups in question and making some sort of investment.

For instance, MS did not help build the youtube app, Google did that using the tools MS provided. The youtube app isn't exactly good either, even if they just added the upload option. So obviously MS is not reaching out to all app developers and helping them build apps.

 

They don't build, they support. i.e they are on hand when the developer doesn't know how to implement the APIs etc. That's the same across any ecosystem of devices or app store. The reason they pay so much is to keep it exclusive in the first place, not to buy the app. You're talking about artificially cutting your audience numbers for money because there are millions of NFL fans much larger than any console install base who would use it if given the choice. ESPN/NFL made that decision just like console developers do when they pick what console to developer for, for $.

 

MS are appealing to their US market as usual, sports, tv and games. It's what they've always done. They invited a top NFL player on stage to the unveiling of the 360 ffs :laugh: There is money to be made in those markets so they've made a deal.

I think since Sony is been selling more PS4's and pulling a head (not saying X1 is not selling well) this is one of the larger arguments in the PS4 vs X1 and cause critic's to be a bit vocal on.

Makes since to make this change to be more competitive. 

Nope, for the reasons I gave above. If it had content or features that were exclusive, then I'd agree with you.

 

If the ESPN website was redesigned tomorrow to a sleeker / easy to navigate UI on par with the app, would the X1/360 version still be of good "value"? ;)

No it would not. Once a quality app matches what it does on any other platform, it loses its value. Why do you keep coming up with future scenarios to try and downplay the value of the app in its current form?

Right now, today, in reality, we have an app that is unique compared to other platforms.

The crazy thing is, ESPN could have redone their website to improve it for that usage, but even after all the years that the Xbox app has been around, they haven't. So the situation remains the same.

Hey, I'm just a user of the app and a sports fan, so I have been waiting for apps like this one that work like it does, disregarding the kinect stuff.

They don't build, they support. i.e they are on hand when the developer doesn't know how to implement the APIs etc. That's the same across any ecosystem of devices or app store. The reason they pay so much is to keep it exclusive in the first place, not to buy the app. You're talking about artifically cutting your audience for money because there are millions of NFL fans much larger than any console install base who would use it if given the choice. ESPN/NFL made that decision just like console developers do when they pick what console to developer for.

 

MS are appealing to their US market as usual, sports, tv and games. It's what they've always done. They invited a top NFL player on stage to the unveiling of the 360 ffs :laugh: There is money to be made in those markets so they've made a deal.

So you don't think MS actually helped build the specific apps, just offered tech support that all app developers get?

I was just thinking they did more in that case because MS has done that before outside of console gaming.

If MS did not help build the apps, then that takes away some of 'exclusive' value. I guess you could then say that value is just the exclusivity, which, like you said is like any exclusive game.

I think since Sony is been selling more PS4's and pulling a head (not saying X1 is not selling well) this is one of the larger arguments in the PS4 vs X1 and cause critic's to be a bit vocal on.

Makes since to make this change to be more competitive.

The funny thing is though that I would bet you that this change will not change sales numbers much. I'm not saying its not worth doing, it very much is, but I am saying that there are not that many end users that base their choice of console solely on the app policies.

It would be more about changing the mood around MS and the Xbox. There is a such a negative cloud that it will take MS doing many things like this that aren't necessarily done to increase sales in a huge way. Its about getting more people to just look at it positively, which is good in the long run. It effects things like developer excitement. This combined with other positive moves would eventually lead to more sale though.

No it would not. Once a quality app matches what it does on any other platform, it loses its value. Why do you keep coming up with future scenarios to try and downplay the value of the app in its current form?

Right now, today, in reality, we have an app that is unique compared to other platforms.

The crazy thing is, ESPN could have redone their website to improve it for that usage, but even after all the years that the Xbox app has been around, they haven't. So the situation remains the same.

Hey, I'm just a user of the app and a sports fan, so I have been waiting for apps like this one that work like it does, disregarding the kinect stuff.

So you don't think MS actually helped build the specific apps, just offered tech support that all app developers get?

I was just thinking they did more in that case because MS has done that before outside of console gaming.

If MS did not help build the apps, then that takes away some of 'exclusive' value. I guess you could then say that value is just the exclusivity, which, like you said is like any exclusive game.

 

Because there is no value today in the app. The app would be the same today if it was available on every single platform that other apps are. We're obviously going to go around in circles with this so I'll let you have the last word and agree to disagree :p

 

And no I don't think they build them. I've yet to see evidence they do. Whereas we have time and time again been told that the apps are outsourced or developed internally (iPlayer/YouTube).

 

Edit: quick google search and you can find the companies who make the apps:

 

http://www.floatleftinteractive.com/customers

http://www.floatleftinteractive.com/xbox-app-developer

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?tab=ww&ei=iddGU97fHKa30QWA8oC4CQ&ved=0CBUQ1S4&gfe_rd=cr#q=linkedin+xbox+360+app+developer

Because there is no value today in the app. The app would be the same today if it was available on every single platform that other apps are. We're obviously going to go around in circles with this so I'll let you have the last word and agree to disagree :p

 

And no I don't think they build them. I've yet to see evidence they do. Whereas we have time and time again been told that the apps are outsourced or developed internally (iPlayer/YouTube).

People that have used the app would disagree that it has no value, but as you said, we are going around in circles and we wont agree on this point.

Since your going to graciously let me have the last word, then I guess there will be no reply :laugh:

As far as the building part, fair enough. I have no evidence to the contrary, so your probably right.

As I tried to find out info about the history of these apps, I stumbled upon an article that mentioned that MS plans to add the same fantasy football feature for the NFL app to the ESPN app (using the ESPN fantasy football league of course), so maybe they will add something that is clearly more valuable and not this subjective stuff.

Also, I've been trying to find out who actually built the app for ESPN or others for that matter and its not easy to find. The closest that I have come to thinking that MS at least had a hand in the actual building and maintenance of the app is from an article that happened to be focusing on the MLB.tv app: http://www.baseballnation.com/2012/3/30/2913438/review-mlb-tv-xbox-360-app

Then there is this article discussing the X1 versions of the apps that at least hints one way: http://thug-geek.com/2013/09/03/xbox-ones-espn-and-nfl-apps-sports-on-demand/ I'd like to see more conclusive evidence somewhere, but that seems to be hard to find.

Good info. I started digging through that info and came up with the following names for the 360 ESPN app:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/richard-mosley/22/687/bb0

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/nikolas-hayes/34/1b5/788

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/emily-price/2a/532/851

The first two seem to have been testers for the app. The third one apparently worked on the network layer and services tied to the app. The first two seem to have been brought in from the outside just for that work, but the third one has been at MS for a while.

I get the impression that more people worked on it then just these three, but maybe not. Either way, it does show that MS did do some kind of work on the app. I'll keep looking through this stuff for more evidence one way or another.

Edit: Found another one:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/scottqlongstreet

A MS developer that was working heavily on the app for a while.

I can't find references to the X1 version yet.

Good info. I started digging through that info and came up with the following names for the 360 ESPN app:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/richard-mosley/22/687/bb0

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/nikolas-hayes/34/1b5/788

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/emily-price/2a/532/851

The first two seem to have been testers for the app. The third one apparently worked on the network layer and services tied to the app. The first two seem to have been brought in from the outside just for that work, but the third one has been at MS for a while.

I get the impression that more people worked on it then just these three, but maybe not. Either way, it does show that MS did do some kind of work on the app. I'll keep looking through this stuff for more evidence one way or another.

 

The SDK and ADK etc are all built by MS and they provide the support, already agreeing with that. That 3rd one seems to do a lot of that including the certification or building the test tools which is 100% handled by MS (their walled garden obviously, just like iOS and the approval process).

 

Interesting about the network layer though, but I'm not about to start praising apps on their OSI implementation :laugh: For all we know the ESPN network is a mess (and maybe why their site is out of date), so she was involved in it more than other apps required to get it working / compatible with MS tools.

 

But you can see from the 3 links I provided, particularly the first company who have done 120 apps, the bulk of the work isn't handled by MS. Just freelance / outsourced coders.

Interesting about the network layer though, but I'm not about to start praising apps on their tcp/ip implementation :laugh: For all we know the ESPN network is a mess (and maybe why their site is out of date), so she was involved in it more than other apps require to get it working / compatible with MS tools.

I just want to know the truth about this, so I appreciate you indulging me in trying to root it out.

I am looking for anyone listed by name that clearly worked to build the app in areas like UI, something that would more clearly point to MS doing more than what they have to do for any app.

I just want to know the truth about this, so I appreciate you indulging me in trying to root it out.

I am looking for anyone listed by name that clearly worked to build the app in areas like UI, something that would more clearly point to MS doing more than what they have to do for any app.

 

Edit: Found another one:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/scottqlongstreet

A MS developer that was working heavily on the app for a while.

I can't find references to the X1 version yet.

 

If you want some more reading to do, I came across this article earlier this week. Forgot to post it until you found the 4th guy. A little dry for the typical GH topic I think but seeing as his role is on the subject I'm sharing :p http://www.vg247.com/2014/04/04/xbox-live-compute-implementation-explained-by-xbl-lead-program-manager/

 

Ignore if this was covered at Build, I completely missed the video streams.

I don't think Microsoft would lose many Gold subscribers as long as online play is Gold only because that is what people primarly pay for. Their current Gold policy has done nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. Apps being free would get many people over to their platform. Value by addition not substraction which Gold hasn't followed for many years. Games with Gold, dedicated servers, NFL for some are worthy perks and they only turned up recently and one is pretty weak sauce compared to the competition, another is unknown and only useful to one country.

 

As for Xbox Live Gold numbers, over the years it started around 65% with original Xbox, around 50% for 360 and keep falling, currently it's down to around 38% of users. Even from a buisness perspectivie I don't think selling your platform to content providers with the cold hard truth, only 38% of our user base will even see your content is not a good selling point.

 

Microsoft says there are about 82million Xbox 360's in consumer homes and about 46million have Gold accounts, wouldn't that be around 45% not 38%?

IMHO Microsoft has set a standard with GOLD.  Sure some things can be questioned, but not enough for me to say  I'm leaving GOLD because of Netflix or Amazon or whatever app is behind a paywall.

Some of these apps that are available elsewhere do perform better on Live. 

Microsoft says there are about 82million Xbox 360's in consumer homes and about 46million have Gold accounts, wouldn't that be around 45% not 38%?

 

There's no point trying to work it out. Any figure you come to isn't going to be accurate. You have millions of RRoDs to account for, never mind multi-owners/subs and the 46 million figure including the free accounts. They've never said how many actually pay for Gold.

But you can see from the 3 links I provided, particularly the first company who have done 120 apps, the bulk of the work isn't handled by MS. Just freelance / outsourced coders.

That first company does not list the ESPN app among their work, so it doesn't tell me anything on that point. I never said MS didn't outsource app development or didn't work with third parties.

Along with the 4th name I listed, it seems like the ESPN app may have been different from the norm. Same maybe for the NFL app.

 

 

If you want some more reading to do, I came across this article earlier this week. Forgot to post it until you found the 4th guy. A little dry for the typical GH topic I think but seeing as his role is on the subject I'm sharing :p http://www.vg247.com/2014/04/04/xbox-live-compute-implementation-explained-by-xbl-lead-program-manager/

 

Ignore if this was covered at Build, I completely missed the video streams.

It was covered at BUILD, but this does offer a few more pieces of info, so its very much welcome.

There's no point trying to work it out. Any figure you come to isn't going to be accurate. You have millions of RRoDs to account for, never mind multi-owners/subs and the 46 million figure including the free accounts. They've never said how many actually pay for Gold.

 

 

If no one truly knows, how does one know it's declining?

If no one truly knows, how does one know it's declining?

 

He doesn't mean it's declining in that current subs are leaving the service, he's talking about attach rate. The number of consoles sold is far out weighing the number of people subbing to Gold.

 

The 48 million number won't go down, it'll only ever go up and up. They include free and gold accounts, dormant and probably even banned accounts. Go turn on your 360/x1 and start making alt GTs and every single one of them is put towards that figure. Every single time you do it, the ratio of gold/free will go down and down.

 There is no way that out of the 80million+ only 48million have Live accounts, it makes little sense.   Out of everyone there's very few who don't connect online with their Xbox at all and don't register, there's no way those people make up 20% of the base.    And having banned accounts counted?  Really?  That's a stretch at best, I'm betting they're only looking at active usage, people actually on live playing MP or watching something like Netflix and so on. 

As for the Roku comment, it's palming off the issue. Why not save yourself $300 and just buy a PS3. Use that mentality and you're beginning to sound like Don Mattrick as if you don't even want any customers :laugh:

:p My comment is coming from the other direction,

-If your primary requirement is gaming, then you are paying for Gold anyway (unless you don't play online), therefore the pay wall shouldn't matter.

-If your primary requirement is a streaming box, then Roku etc. are much better than Xbox/PS. You lose integration but something's gotta give.

There is no way that out of the 80million+ only 48million have Live accounts, it makes little sense. Out of everyone there's very few who don't connect online with their Xbox at all and don't register, there's no way those people make up 20% of the base. And having banned accounts counted? Really? That's a stretch at best, I'm betting they're only looking at active usage, people actually on live playing MP or watching something like Netflix and so on.

So why are MS saying 48 million on their own website?

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/live

So why are MS saying 48 million on their own website?

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/live

 

48 million active accounts, but I doubt that's counting banned and old inactive accounts that haven't been used in years.    There's also no way 30million + are second consoles and or rebuys only, another thing some people like to imply.   Those who have multiple systems, of the same brand, are a minority.  Odds are higher you have one of each not 2 or 3 of the same though.   And RRoD warranty units that were covered don't count as a sale either. 

 

Besides, there are live accounts that they're not counting in this as well, all those people with a Windows 8 device or a WP who don't own a Xbox console also have a Live account by extension, but they're not being counted in the 48million number.  So it has to only be active 360/XB1 users right now.

48 million active accounts, but I doubt that's counting banned and old inactive accounts that haven't been used in years.    There's also no way 30million + are second consoles and or rebuys only, another thing some people like to imply.   Those who have multiple systems, of the same brand, are a minority.  Odds are higher you have one of each not 2 or 3 of the same though.   And RRoD warranty units that were covered don't count as a sale either. 

 

Besides, there are live accounts that they're not counting in this as well, all those people with a Windows 8 device or a WP who don't own a Xbox console also have a Live account by extension, but they're not being counted in the 48million number.  So it has to only be active 360/XB1 users right now.

 

Why would they count them when talking about the Xbox 360/XB1? That would be misleading to say the least as it's suppose to be numbers reflecting those on either console, not other Windows devices.

 

There's not really any point in trying to spin or read into numbers MS are issuing themselves - Don't you think the marketing team has already thought about presenting such a number in the most favourable light anyway? Is it really that inconceivable to think there's people who do not use XBL Gold?  :/

 

MS revealed back in 2010 about 50% of the Live users pay for Gold. While a long time ago it's not inconceivable to think such a trend will carry on in some shape or form and you'd be daft to think it's ever going to be a 1:1 ratio of XBL user to Gold. I think it will be higher than 50% now for sure, but not 90/95% or something that high.

 

"Of our 25 million members, about half of them are subscribers for the business and pay us about $60 a year for that. So, it's a very, very large business for us and for our partners." 

 

If they were reporting their Live install base back then as a combined figure, why wouldn't they be now? It's the most favourable way for marketing to report things.

 

From 2013 as well, during an investors/financial report

 

Microsoft says that Xbox Live subscriptions are up 18% over last year, reaching a grand total of 46M, out of 77M Xboxes sold.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/04/20/always-on-microsoft-xbox-live-subscriptions-up-to-46m-will-never-be-free/

 

But the ratio wasn't specified

 

Additionally, the global conglomerate revealed that Xbox Live now has 46 million members, but it didn?t specify how many of those are of the paid-subscriber variety. Either way, that number is up 18 percent from last year.

 

http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/18/xbox-division-up-big-for-microsofts-q3-xbox-live-now-has-46m-members/

 

You cannot play MP or watch Netflix on silver so from your comment earlier you think the 48 million is all Gold?

 

 I'm betting they're only looking at active usage, people actually on live playing MP or watching something like Netflix and so on.

 

MS haven't been reporting their figures released each fiscal year as Gold only, ever, in fact in 2010 as above the split was actually revealed. In years just gone by, forbes/wiki/all the other news sites are reporting saying the ratio hasn't been divulged. Do you not think if you were MS and it was 46m/48m Gold you'd have the PR ninjas sent out in a hearbeat to correct all these sites?

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AB said everything perfectly but just to add that AFAIK only Steam release active numbers. MS/Nintendo/Sony don't.

 

And as for counting inactive accounts or dupes, they certainly do. I remember Sony releasing their numbers probably back in 2009/10 for PSN and it overtook XBL with something like 70 million accounts. The service was only 4 years old :laugh: Funny how they managed that with half the install base at the time. Reason? Multiple accounts.

 

Trust me, neither install base number will ever go down. They'll only ever announce milestones of it going up.

Did you just say Xbox Live has a better community than Steam?!

 

Steam has a better community? Starting right from the people that moderate that very community. If you say something bad, you get banned. Much love being spread there. /s

 

Now if you're talking about groups and stuff, you can also have that on Facebook / it doesn't matter since that's not the general community.

AB said everything perfectly but just to add that AFAIK only Steam release active numbers. MS/Nintendo/Sony don't.

 

And as for counting inactive accounts or dupes, they certainly do. I remember Sony releasing their numbers probably back in 2009/10 for PSN and it overtook XBL with something like 70 million accounts. The service was only 4 years old :laugh: Funny how they managed that with half the install base at the time. Reason? Multiple accounts.

 

Trust me, neither install base number will ever go down. They'll only ever announce milestones of it going up.

 

Yeah the PSN numbers are hilarious. Everyone and their granny have about 5 accounts to get all the other stores content/gameshare. Last count I think I had about 4 or something. Don't think duping will be as rampant on Live, it really kicked off on PSN due to how easy it was to make an account and use worldwide stores, and more importantly the rise of gamesharing when we had 5 activations.

:p My comment is coming from the other direction,-If your primary requirement is gaming, then you are paying for Gold anyway (unless you don't play online), therefore the pay wall shouldn't matter.-If your primary requirement is a streaming box, then Roku etc. are much better than Xbox/PS. You lose integration but something's gotta give.

I understand your logic, but don't agree with it at all.

Of the current-gen consoles, only one has a pay wall for apps.

Of the last-gen consoles, only one has a pay wall for apps.

Of the streaming boxes, none have a pay wall for apps.

Windows 8, Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone do not have a pay wall for apps.

Apple, Android, etc. do not have a pay wall for apps.

Just because your primary reason for having an Xbox One is gaming doesn't mean your preference is more valid than mine or anyone else. Microsoft's DRM policy, paywall and many other things are significantly behind their direct competition. Whether you, Microsoft or anyone else think differently, iOS and Android are competitors in the gaming landscape. Their models are significantly more consumer friendly than Microsoft and to some degree even Sony.

I will continue to support platforms that are economically beneficial to myself and slowly rid myself of the platforms that aren't. Others will (are) do the same.

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    • AdGuard Family lifetime deal now only $14.97 by Steven Parker Today's highlighted Neowin Deal comes via our Apps + Software section, where you can get a lifetime subscription and save 91% on a lifetime AdGuard Family Plan. AdGuard is a unique program that has all the necessary features for what they claim to be "the best web experience." The software combines the an advanced ad blocker, a privacy protection module, and a parental control tool—all working in one app. This software deals with annoying ads, hides your data from a multitude of trackers, protects you from malware attacks, and even lets you restrict your kids from accessing inappropriate content. Install AdGuard and see the internet as it was supposed to be: clean and safe. Get rid of annoying banners, pop-ups & video ads once and for all Hide your data from the multitude of trackers & activity analyzers that swarm the web Avoid fraudulent and phishing website and malware attacks Protect your kids online by restricting them from accessing inappropriate & adult content Good to know Family Plan Length of access: lifetime This plan is only available to new users Redemption deadline: redeem your code within 30 days of purchase Max number of devices: 9 Access options: desktop & mobile Software version: AdGuard Family Updates included A lifetime subscription of AdGuard Family Plan normally costs $169.99, but this deal can be yours for just $14.97, that's a saving of $157.02. For full terms, specifications, and license info please click the link below. Get this AdGuard Family lifetime deal for just $14.97 (was $169.99) Although priced in U.S. dollars, this deal is available for digital purchase worldwide. As an online publication, Neowin too relies on ads for operating costs and, if you use an ad blocker, we'd appreciate being whitelisted. In addition, we have an ad-free subscription for $28 a year, which is another way to show support! Support queries If you have queries or need support for any of the Neowin Deals, please use the contact form here. Neowin Deals are managed and sold by StackCommerce who represent Neowin on an affiliate basis. Why we post these deals We post these because we earn commission on each sale so as not to rely solely on advertising, which many of our readers block. It all helps toward paying staff reporters, servers and hosting costs. So for those that keep moaning and complaining, be thankful we're still online for you to even do that. Other ways to support Neowin Whitelist Neowin by not blocking our ads Create a free member account to see fewer ads Make a donation to support our day to day running costs Subscribe to Neowin - for $14 a year, or $28 a year for an ad-free experience Disclosure: Neowin benefits from revenue of each sale made through our branded deals site powered by StackCommerce.
    • Passkeys: Think of them like a broken heart necklace. Imagine one of those heart necklaces that breaks into two matching pieces. One person keeps one half, and the other person keeps the other half. With passkeys, the website has one half, and you have the other half. If the website gets hacked and someone steals its half, that stolen piece is useless by itself. It cannot unlock your account without your matching half. This particular heart necklace is one of a kind, there is only one in existence. Your half of the necklace has to be stored somewhere. It might be stored on your phone, tablet, computer, security key, or a password manager that can sync it between all your devices. A security key is a small physical device that you keep with you, kind of like a house key, car key, or flash drive. I would not usually recommend a security key as the first option for the average person. For most people, it is easier to use their phone, computer, or a password manager that can sync passkeys between their devices. A security key is more like a spare key you keep in a safe place, just in case you lose access to your other devices or your password manager. Some security keys plug into your computer. Some plug into your phone or tablet. Some get tapped against your device. The idea is simple: a security key can hold another passkey for the same website. Think of it like creating a second one-of-a-kind heart necklace for the same account. One necklace could be paired with your password manager, while another necklace could be paired with your security key. That means the website has more than one matching half on file. One half matches the passkey in your password manager. Another half matches the passkey stored on your security key. So, if you lose access to your phone, computer, or password manager, you would still be able to log in using the passkey stored on your security key. Think of it like keeping an extra special necklace piece on a tiny keychain, stored somewhere safe. The website still has the matching half for that security key, but your half is safely stored inside the little key. A passkey does not automatically exist on every device you own. It lives wherever you save it. If your half is stored on one device, then that device is the one that has the matching piece. For example, if you create the passkey on your Windows computer and it is only saved to that computer, your iPhone does not automatically have that same half. If you create it on your iPhone and it only stays on that iPhone, your Android phone does not automatically have it either. That is where password managers come in. A password manager can act like a protected jewelry box for your passkeys. Instead of your half of the necklace being locked to only one device, the password manager can securely sync that half to your other approved devices. For example, Apple Passwords and iCloud Keychain can sync passkeys between your Apple devices. Google Password Manager can sync passkeys with your Google account. But password managers such as 1Password and Bitwarden can sync passkeys between everything, your phones, tablets and computers. Now, you might ask: “What happens if I lose access to the device that has my passkey?” That depends on where your passkey was saved and what recovery options the website gives you. If your passkey was synced through a password manager, you may be able to sign in from another device that has access to that same password manager. For example, if your passkey is saved in iCloud Keychain, Google Password Manager, 1Password, or Bitwarden, another approved device may still have access to it. If your passkey was saved only on one phone, computer, or security key, and you lose that device, then you may not have your half of the necklace anymore. In that case, you would usually need to use the website’s backup login or account recovery options. A lot of websites that support passkeys still let you fall back to your regular password. So if you lose access to your passkey, the site may still let you log in with your password, a code sent to your email, a text message, a recovery code, or some other account recovery process. That is convenient, but it is also important to understand: if the website still allows password login, then your password still matters. Passkeys are safer than passwords, but if your account still has a password as a backup, you should still use a strong, unique password and turn on two-factor authentication if the website offers it. This is why it is a good idea to have more than one safe way back into important accounts. For example, you might keep your passkey in a syncing password manager, add a second trusted device, save recovery codes somewhere safe, or set up a backup security key. A passkey is very secure, but just like a real key, you need a backup plan in case you lose access to it. Now, you might ask: “What stops a hacker from copying my half of the necklace?” That’s the important part: your half is protected. It is not something you type in, and it is not something the website gets to keep. Think of your half as being locked inside a tiny safe on your phone, computer, security key, or password manager. That safe only opens when you approve it with your fingerprint, face, PIN, or device password. When you log in, the website does not need to see your half. It only needs proof that your half matches its half. Your actual half is not handed over to the website. This is different from a password. With a password, you type the secret into the website. If you type it into a fake website, the hacker now has it. With a passkey, you are not typing your secret into the website. Your device is proving you have the matching half without giving the half away. That also helps protect you from fake websites. If someone makes a fake login page that looks like the real site, your device can tell it is not the real match. It will not use your passkey there. Now, could someone use your passkey if they stole your device, got into your password manager, or somehow unlocked the safe that holds your half? Yes, that is why your device password, PIN, fingerprint, face unlock, and password manager security still matter. But a hacker cannot just steal your passkey from the website or trick you into typing it into a fake page like they can with a password. That is why passkeys are safer than passwords. The two matching pieces have to come together, like two lovebirds who were once separated and are finally reunited.
    • Newegg offers insane combo deal on Amazon Prime Day 2026 that beats Steam Machine by Sayan Sen Building a PC is undoubtedly difficult nowadays but with this epic combo deal, Newegg is trying to make it as easy for you as it is possible. If you are making a new one or even upgrading an old system to a new Windows 11 device, this combo bundle is truly unmissable as you get AMD's Ryzen 9800X3D, a compatible X870 motherboard, a 240mm AIO liquid cooler and finally a Samsung 990 PRO SSD all for under $1000 (purchase link under the specs table down below). This should beat out the newly launched Steam Machine from Valve in terms of performance and performance per dollar especially if you are willing to set Linux up on it. Essentially with this combo you will get the AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D 8-core 3D V cache CPU, Samsung's 990 PRO 2TB NVMe SSD, the MSI MAG X870 TOMAHAWK WIFI ATX Motherboard, and finally the Cooler Master Elite Liquid 240. Thanks to that massive vertically stacked L3 cache, the X3D desktop processors, including the 9800X3D, also come with the benefit of not needing fast memory. Even DDR5-5600 should be plenty for it. The technical specifications of the Ryzen 7 9800X3D are given in the table below: Specification Value Architecture Zen 5 Cores / Threads 8 / 16 Base Clock 4.7 GHz Max Boost Clock Up to 5.2 GHz L1 Cache 640 KB L2 Cache 8 MB L3 Cache 96 MB Total Cache 104 MB CPU Core Process TSMC 4nm FinFET I/O Die Process TSMC 6nm FinFET Socket AM5 Default TDP 120W Max Temperature (Tjmax) 95°C Thermal Solution Not included Memory Type DDR5 Max Capacity 256 GB Memory Speeds 2x1R: DDR5-5600 2x2R: DDR5-5600 4x1R: DDR5-3600 4x2R: DDR5-3600 PCIe Version PCIe 5.0 PCIe Lanes (Total/Usable) 28 / 24 USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) 4 USB 2.0 1 Graphics Cores 2 CU RDNA 2 Frequency 2200 MHz DisplayPort over USB-C Yes Overclocking Unlocked Up next we have the tech specs for the MSI MAG X870 TOMAHAWK WIFI Motherboard: Specification Value Chipset AMD X870 CPU Support AMD Ryzen 9000 / 8000 / 7000 Series Desktop Processors Socket AM5 Memory Slots 4 × DDR5 UDIMM Maximum Memory Capacity 256GB Memory Support DDR5 8400–5600 MT/s (OC), DDR5 5600–4800 MT/s (JEDEC) Integrated Graphics Outputs 1 × HDMI 2.1 FRL (up to 8K 60Hz) 2 × USB4 Type-C with DisplayPort 1.4 HBR3 (up to 4K 60Hz) Expansion Slots PCI_E1: PCIe 5.0 x16 (CPU) PCI_E2: PCIe 3.0 x1 (Chipset) PCI_E3: PCIe 4.0 x4 (Chipset) Audio Realtek ALC4080 Codec 7.1-Channel USB High Performance Audio Supports up to 32-bit/384kHz playback on front panel S/PDIF output M.2 Slots 4 × M.2 M2_1: PCIe 5.0 x4 (CPU, 22110/2280) M2_2: PCIe 5.0 x4 (CPU, 2280/2260) M2_3: PCIe 4.0 x2 (Chipset, 2280/2260) M2_4: PCIe 4.0 x4 (Chipset, 2280/2260) SATA Ports 4 × SATA 6Gb/s RAID Support RAID 0, 1, 5, 10 for M.2 NVMe storage devices Rear USB Ports 4 × USB 2.0 3 × USB 5Gbps Type-A 2 × USB 10Gbps Type-A 1 × USB 10Gbps Type-C 2 × USB4 40Gbps Type-C Front USB Headers 4 × USB 2.0 4 × USB 5Gbps Type-A 1 × USB 20Gbps Type-C LAN Realtek 8126-CG 5G LAN Wireless Wi-Fi 7 (M.2 Key-E module pre-installed) Supports 2.4GHz / 5GHz / 6GHz bands Up to 5.8Gbps Supports 802.11 a/b/g/n/ac/ax/be Bluetooth Bluetooth 5.4, MLO, 4KQAM Internal Power Connectors 1 × 24-pin ATX Power 2 × CPU Power Connectors 1 × PCIe 8-pin Power Connector Fan Headers 1 × CPU Fan 1 × Combo Fan (Pump/System) 6 × System Fan RGB Headers 3 × Addressable V2 RGB (JARGB_V2) 1 × RGB LED (JRGB) Other Internal Headers 1 × EZ Conn-header 2 × Front Panel Headers 1 × Chassis Intrusion 1 × Front Audio 1 × TPM 2.0 Header Debug Features 4 × EZ Debug LEDs 1 × EZ Digit Debug LED Rear I/O Ports Clear CMOS Button Flash BIOS Button HDMI 2 × USB 40Gbps Type-C 1 × USB 10Gbps Type-C 4 × USB 10Gbps Type-A 3 × USB 5Gbps Type-A 4 × USB 2.0 5G LAN Port Wi-Fi/Bluetooth Antenna Connectors Audio Connectors Form Factor ATX The Samsung 990 PRO is a PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD and still one of the fastest drives available today for under $500. Speaking of fast, sequential reads and writes are rated at 7450 MB/s and 6900 MB/s, respectively. The random throughputs for reads and writes are 1400K IOPS and 1550K IOPS, respectively. The 990 PRO is based on Samsung's 7th Gen V-NAND flash, and it too is TLC. It packs 2 gigs of LPDDR4 DRAM cache, which helps the random performance. The endurance rating for this is 1200 TBW (terabytes written), which should be sufficient for most users. The Samsung 990 PRO is compatible with the PlayStation 5, but if you are going to use the 990 PRO on a PC, check out the Samsung Magician app that lets you track your drive's health, update its firmware, customize various settings, and more. The tech specs are given below: Specification Value Interface PCIe Gen 4.0 x4, NVMe 2.0 Form Factor M.2 2280 Controller Samsung In-house Controller NAND Flash 3D TLC DRAM Cache 2GB LPDDR4 Sequential Read (Max) 7,450 MB/s Sequential Write (Max) 6,900 MB/s Random Read (4K) Up to 1,400,000 IOPS Random Write (4K) Up to 1,550,000 IOPS TBW (Endurance) 1,200 TBW MTBF 1,500,000 hours Operating Temperature 0°C to 70°C Storage Temperature -40°C to 85°C Shock Resistance 1,500G / 0.5ms Heatsink No Get the combo deal at this link: AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D, Samsung 990 PRO 2TB, MSI MAG X870 TOMAHAWK WIFI motherboard, Cooler Master Elite Liquid 240: $784.99 + $25 off with promo code FTTF77: $759.99 (Sold and Shipped by Newegg US) Good to know This Newegg deal is U.S. specific, and not available in other regions unless specified. We only use first-party seller links (at the time of article publishing); ensure that you purchase from a first-party seller link only. Check out Today's Deals on Amazon | or our recent tech deals. Become a Prime member (for Students or SNAP) via Neowin Get Prime Access - Prime for half price (for qualifying Medicaid, EBT, SNAP) Subscribe to Prime Video, Audible Plus, Music Unlimited or Kindle Unlimited via Neowin As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
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