Microsoft to sell Xbox One without Kinect for

[neoadorable]

Um, there is already one today about it thanks to a slew of articles written today.

Also, I don't think you have actually read the whole thread if you have not seen the posts I'm talking about.

It's cool though, that is how it goes. Some people have expressed more disappointment then others.

 

Tell that to DirtyLarry.

 

Don't take it so seriously, again i have to say that. The gaming community has always been like those two grumpy old geezers from the Muppet Show, sitting on the sidelines and no matter what happens, make fun of it and complain. It's part of the charm, even though i admit it does get annoying sometimes.

[Ironman273]

Penny Arcade have their own stance on it:

 

You should post the text of Penny Arcade also:

 

There are always going to be things you don?t know, of course.  For example, when I heard about an Xbox One without a Kinect or BD-ROM, I thought for sure that was the device they intended to launch in China.  Upgrade it to a terabyte drive, and suddenly every game is a service.

 

I think we?ll still get to the second part, frankly.  2016, if not before.  That device is like three hundred bucks, and lo and behold, it?s ?limitations? would bring it strongly in line with their original thesis for the platform, much of which has been pulverized and hauled away.  Shucking the Kinect is a startling thing to have done, one I didn?t expect, because it seems like they?d probably eaten their fill of crow.  But maybe that was the other dude, the one who left.  It seems like the new guy has room, or maybe he has a second ?crow stomach? dedicated exclusively to crow.

 

In some ways making a 3DS without the 3D, a 2DS if you will, has some parallels - especially in the ?X Feature Is Definitive Of And Indeed Synonymous With X Platform? department.  For my part, I liked the crazy sh**.  It probably wasn?t good business.  In fact, that?s been definitively established.  But just because nobody aside from Harmonix or Double Fine seems to know what the Kinect is for, doesn?t mean nobody ever will.  I think VR is going to require awareness of the body, not just the face, and it was always the experimentation it inspired that was the interesting bit to me anyway.  Maybe an indie can figure it out.

 

One of the most common things you see written about the Xbox One is that Kinect is strange as an inherency, but it?s such an assumption for the operating system that navigating the device doesn?t really make sense without it.  I use it every day for voice commands, or signing in, because one of its witch-eyes - H?rothar, the one that is receptive to spiritus - sees me kneeling before it?s black altar.  They have a ton of work to do launching this platform a second time, but it seems like they want to, and they have unlimited money.

[Ironman273]

I'm with you there on being a bit disappointed on a personal level after having a good experience.

But again, MS made the choice that had to be made based on sales and customer feedback.

Your right that now the easy point to make is that that the ps4 is more powerful at the same price, so we will see what MS tries to do on that front.

But wasn't the Xbox One selling more than the successful 360?  And that's without it losing money at launch?  Was it just a matter of looking over Sony's fence and wanting more?  I guess it's what the shareholders want but as a stakeholder it's not what I want.

[trooper11]

If we based microsofts approach to Kinect on sonys, Kinect wouldn't be where it is today in the first place. Microsoft has proven they care a ton about Kinect, much more than Sony has ever cared about their camera and I don't see why that should change just because they're not bundling it.

You could be right of course.

I am just not so sure Kinect works as well as its own platform that MS has to push. Just look at last gen for evidence of that.

Its just the worry that other people have.

 

 

Don't take it so seriously, again i have to say that. The gaming community has always been like those two grumpy old geezers from the Muppet Show, sitting on the sidelines and no matter what happens, make fun of it and complain. It's part of the charm, even though i admit it does get annoying sometimes.

So you admit even you get annoyed by it sometimes but then say to not take it seriously?

Hey its cool if your just enjoying the ride, but I just think its a tad silly to react the way some chose to react. Its not really about being 'serious', just about people acting differently.

[trooper11]

But wasn't the Xbox One selling more than the successful 360?  And that's without it losing money at launch?  Was it just a matter of looking over Sony's fence and wanting more?  I guess it's what the shareholders want but as a stakeholder it's not what I want.

Its really hard to say. We have no way of knowing what MS actually used as a gauge to decide to do what they did.

You could just take the argument that MS wanted to drop the price and were unable to take the hit while still keeping Kinect bundled.

[Dashel]

Kinect isn't about gaming.  I'll assume that this is just a way to bring the entry cost down.  I'll vote with a full model now that they've removed the silly XBL requirement.

[notchinese]

To all the people saying all these features have been axed from the XB1....what features are you even talking about?

[0nyX]

Relax. It is only going to get better

[0nyX]

 

 

At the end of the day the decision has been made and unless MS really want to look stupid they're not going to turn back. 

Maybe it is little too late for that.

[neoadorable]

So you admit even you get annoyed by it sometimes but then say to not take it seriously?

Hey its cool if your just enjoying the ride, but I just think its a tad silly to react the way some chose to react. Its not really about being 'serious', just about people acting differently.

 

Of course, we get annoyed sometimes by things that overall aren't all that critical to our wellbeing. I wasn't dissing you, just friendly advice not to take this whole Kinect thing so seriously, as even within the context of gaming, the console itself hasn't changed. I wasn't flaming you in any way, so don't be offended.

[neoadorable]

trooper, relax! It's all good. We're basically where the 360 was with the first Kinect. You want to use it, great - even better, now you have a system totally setup for it. You don't want Kinect? No problem, you have an excellent games and entertainment device to enjoy.

 

This was supposed to be the situation from the get go. I personally didn't overly mind the Kinect bundle, but it did give me reason for pause - hence PS4 was my first choice, until i realized i can't just let Xbox go. So i wasn't against Kinect and grew to like it. I agree MS doing this now is a little jarring but not too bad.

 

I don't understand why you are making this into such a big deal. And i don't agree with Larry that this will fragment the user base. It didn't with 360, PS4 isn't due to the camera...so what's the biggie? And if we now can have that extra RAM freed up..oooh baby that's what i'm talking about! Let developers decide if they want to use that reserve or not, don't force them to work with a hampered system just to sustain a feel good accessory that says hi to me when i power on. I'll take nicer graphics and more features any day of the week over that.

[MikeChipshop Member]

Moot

If you are American, I guess they are homophones (not to me, though).

Moot point: no point to be made.

Mute point: Point to be made but just not getting it.

Two different things. Maybe it's just localized slang, if so, consider yourself educated. :p

[neoadorable]

For me it has nothing to do with the games. Everything to do with the OS itself.

You think there are going to be as many resources on the Kinect driven OS now that there is guaranteed to be a fragmented user base?

 

Project Manager #1 - Hmm, we have 100 people and have 3 tasks we need to complete, 2 of those tasks are not Kinect related, 1 task is Kinect Related.

Project Manager #2 - Let's put 33 people on each task. That way each one gets done equally.

Project Manager #1 - Well normally I would agree, but do we really need to task that many people on the Kinect related task since half of our user base may never even use it?

Project Manager #2 - Good point. 10 people on the Kinect task. 40 on the other 2 tasks.

 

Now I am over-simplifying it terribly for the sake of an example, but seriously do you think this is not going to be the case? If them dropping Kinect was a business decision, then them not supporting Kinect as much in the future will also be a business decision. That is how business works.

 

I think your worries about a fragmented user base are not warranted. It shouldn't be more of an issue than the initial impression that Win 8 was "for touch devices" when it's just as effective with a mouse and keyboard, unless someone has the patience of a four year old and simply refuses to try anything remotely new. It should be fine with X1, Kinect honestly doesn't make much of a practical difference. It is of course very useful for persons with disabilities and special needs, but no one is taking it away.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

In an interview with Ars Technica, Microsoft's Head of Xbox Phil Spencer confirmed that efforts to offer a no-Kinect edition of Xbox One began as soon as he joined the Xbox team five weeks ago and that today?s out-of-nowhere announcement was meant to ?get the product and the choice in front of consumers as soon as possible.?

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/05/head-of-xbox-says-plans-to-decouple-kinect-from-xbox-one-began-in-april/

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Topics merged

 

No sense having this news split over two topics / repeat discussions.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Kinect Sports Rivals I think it's called didn't even chart in this months NPDs

 

[Manish]

Completely off-topic but I just wanted to mention that "moot point" is an actual phrase (appropriate terminology), "mute point" is not, and neither is "moo point" (moo point: a cow's opinion). Consider yourself educated.

 

Moot point: no point to be made.

Mute point: Point to be made but just not getting it.

Two different things. Maybe it's just localized slang, if so, consider yourself educated. :p

[neoadorable]

Completely off-topic but I just wanted to mention that "moot point" is an actual phrase (appropriate terminology), "mute point" is not, and neither is "moo point" (moo point: a cow's opinion). Consider yourself educated.

 

Hahaha, good one. Never heard of a mute point myself, but pretty much everything i have ever said or written has been moot from the outset.

[trooper11]

trooper, relax! It's all good. We're basically where the 360 was with the first Kinect. You want to use it, great - even better, now you have a system totally setup for it. You don't want Kinect? No problem, you have an excellent games and entertainment device to enjoy.

 

This was supposed to be the situation from the get go. I personally didn't overly mind the Kinect bundle, but it did give me reason for pause - hence PS4 was my first choice, until i realized i can't just let Xbox go. So i wasn't against Kinect and grew to like it. I agree MS doing this now is a little jarring but not too bad.

You keep thinking I'm upset or something. Not at all. I'm a bit disappointed with how it turned out sure, but I'm not mad at MS. They made the right choice by listening to the majority of users.

Its funny you should mention kinect for the 360. That didn't turn out so great, so I personally hope that is not the future.

Most users did not want the bundle, now they don't have to get that, its good news overall. If a few people are upset, I can understand why they would be. They need to vent. Just as those opposed to the bundle before vented all the time.

Kinect Sports Rivals I think it's called didn't even chart in this months NPDs

Yep, more bad news to support the decision.

[neoadorable]

You keep thinking I'm upset or something. Not at all. I'm a bit disappointed with how it turned out sure, but I'm not mad at MS. They made the right choice by listening to the majority of users.

Its funny you should mention kinect for the 360. That didn't turn out so great, so I personally hope that is not the future.

Most users did not want the bundle, now they don't have to get that, its good news overall. If a few people are upset, I can understand why they would be. They need to vent. Just as those opposed to the bundle before vented all the time.

Yep, more bad news to support the decision.

 

You sounded upset :D But sorry if i made any wrong assumptions.

 

As for the comparison to 360 Kinect - very true, Kinect 2.0 will also have to sink or swim on its own now. This is good, it's whatever the market wants needs. Those who want it can use it, those who don't can skip it. I only got used to Kinect because i was basically "forced" to buy it with X1 - but forced it the wrong word. There was no gun to my head and i knew exactly what i was paying for.

[trooper11]

You sounded upset :D But sorry if i made any wrong assumptions.

 

As for the comparison to 360 Kinect - very true, Kinect 2.0 will also have to sink or swim on its own now. This is good, it's whatever the market wants needs. Those who want it can use it, those who don't can skip it. I only got used to Kinect because i was basically "forced" to buy it with X1 - but forced it the wrong word. There was no gun to my head and i knew exactly what i was paying for.

MS already made it clear at launch that Kinect was not its own platform, so don't expect them to suddenly change that course and try to get a bunch of Kinect only games made. That tactic failed them last gen and it just angered core gamers when they spent time at E3 demoing anything Kinect related.

MS learned that lesson and now they don't devote time at E3 to Kinect only titles. I highly doubt that changes. So Kinect will remain behind the scenes and MS will simply have to keep pushing it as the complete X1 experience while highlighting all the things it adds to the experience beyond party games.

[PGHammer]

I get what you're saying, but even the exclusives aren't supporting it. Sunset Overdrive devs said they won't have any support for Kinect.

 

If the vision of their game doesn't fit with Kinect, they shouldn't be forced to support it. I don't blame them. I'm not sure why you'd blame the users. 

Look at the threads regarding Kinect usage, even with the One - and espeically those that also own a PS3/XB360 that lacks either Kinect or Move.

 

Kinect is basically ignored - and deliberately.

 

The user knows it's there, and deliberately decides to NOT use it, even as part of the core experience.

 

If a user won't use a feature, despite paying extra for it, why would a developer support that feature?

 

Worse, look at how many users haave come right out and said that they would have preferred something like the old XB360 Core in terms of XB1 hardware.

 

That is a frugality-driven argument - in other words, it's not about features, or even lack thereof - it is all about price.

 

Users are demandinng "improved old" - not new.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

MS already made it clear at launch that Kinect was not its own platform, so don't expect them to suddenly change that course and try to get a bunch of Kinect only games made. That tactic failed them last gen and it just angered core gamers when they spent time at E3 demoing anything Kinect related.

MS learned that lesson and now they don't devote time at E3 to Kinect only titles. I highly doubt that changes. So Kinect will remain behind the scenes and MS will simply have to keep pushing it as the complete X1 experience while highlighting all the things it adds to the experience beyond party games.

 

How can they ever sell it to gamers, who lets be honest are customer #1 when it comes to consoles, if they never offer software to utilize it or even demo it?

 

Do they really think that just taking it out the box and sticking it on the shelf is going to sell better? They need to drop this "it's not for games" or not just for games. Of course it is, it's on a console.

 

If it never goes beyond OS use then why would people be upset last week? Those features have been there since launch and they aren't about to strip them out. Kinects biggest failure not only came down to not appealing to the hardcore, but when they tried all they did was replace something the controller could already do (faster and more responsively). It can't be supported by the next Elder Scrolls and fus ro dah shouts or the like. That's not winning the hardcore either.

 

Giant Bomb had a good article over the weekend which touched on this. Will dig it out and post it

[trooper11]

How can they ever sell it to gamers, who lets be honest are customer #1 when it comes to consoles, if they never offer software to utilize it or even demo it?

They can demo software at other times, just not at E3.

MS got crushed online from core gamers every time they showed off Kinect only games. Leading up to this launch, plenty online were saying that they did not want to see MS devote that kind of time on stage to Kinect. MS followed that idea and hence you say no time devoted to Kinect at E3. I expect a similar situation this E3.

That does not mean they can't market and demo such games elsewhere.

 

Do they really think that just taking it out the box and sticking it on the shelf is going to sell better? They need to drop this "it's not for games" or not just for games. Of course it is, it's on a console.

It is for more than just Kinect only games. It can be used with traditional games and it makes the experience of using the X1 better. MS devoted time and resources to make Kinect more useful. If they don't try to actually communicate to the end user how exactly it makes the experience better, then it won't get any more popular. Just throwing it out there is not enough.

Of course if you aren't interested in those other things, Kinect is a much harder sell.

The dark horse in all of this is the average consumer. They are usually receptive to non-gaming features when you show them how it can make things easier.

 

If it never goes beyond OS use then why would people be upset last week? Those features have been there since launch and they aren't about to strip them out. Kinects biggest failure not only came down to not appealing to the hardcore, but when they tried all they did was replace something the controller could already do (faster and more responsively). It can't be supported by the next Elder Scrolls and fus ro dah shouts or the like. That's not winning the hardcore either.

Why do you get such tunnel vision? Its not just the OS usage and its not just about Kinect only games. Its about ALL of it. Kinect was integrated into the Xbox platform. The Xbox itself can do more than game. Kinect adds some game features and some non gaming features.

There were already indie developers messing around with Kinect which had some promise. Some of the hardcore had already made it clear that Kinect was not for them. That's perfectly fine. Kinect was never going to replace controllers or become the dominant way to game on a console. If MS thought that last gen, they certainly did not believe that this gen. They put it out there this gen as a device that can be used for some gaming, but has value even if you don't like motion based gaming. The biggest problem there is they did not make enough effort to communicate that value.

I think the reason people that do care about Kinect are worried is pretty simple. They would like to see MS keep pushing new features either for games or non-gaming as well as improving the things it already does. They just want to see continued investment.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

They can demo software at other times, just not at E3.

MS got crushed online from core gamers every time they showed off Kinect only games. Leading up to this launch, plenty online were saying that they did not want to see MS devote that kind of time on stage to Kinect. MS followed that idea and hence you say no time devoted to Kinect at E3. I expect a similar situation this E3.

That does not mean they can't market and demo such games elsewhere.

 

It is for more than just Kinect only games. It can be used with traditional games and it makes the experience of using the X1 better. MS devoted time and resources to make Kinect more useful. If they don't try to actually communicate to the end user how exactly it makes the experience better, then it won't get any more popular. Just throwing it out there is not enough.

Of course if you aren't interested in those other things, Kinect is a much harder sell.

The dark horse in all of this is the average consumer. They are usually receptive to non-gaming features when you show them how it can make things easier.

 

Why do you get such tunnel vision? Its not just the OS usage and its not just about Kinect only games. Its about ALL of it. Kinect was integrated into the Xbox platform. The Xbox itself can do more than game. Kinect adds some game features and some non gaming features.

There were already indie developers messing around with Kinect which had some promise. Some of the hardcore had already made it clear that Kinect was not for them. That's perfectly fine. Kinect was never going to replace controllers or become the dominant way to game on a console. If MS thought that last gen, they certainly did not believe that this gen. They put it out there this gen as a device that can be used for some gaming, but has value even if you don't like motion based gaming. The biggest problem there is they did not make enough effort to communicate that value.

I think the reason people that do care about Kinect are worried is pretty simple. They would like to see MS keep pushing new features either for games or non-gaming as well as improving the things it already does. They just want to see continued investment.

 

What I'm getting at is the huge paradox in your argument. They have to sell the idea, but too scared to do so. Well then it's no wonder how things ended. There exists no event that the hardcore isn't interested in that casuals are. E3 is the biggest, but CES, Build, PAX, Gamescom and TGS are all for the hardcore. If they're too scared to talk about it, how do they ever sell it without using those events to do so. It's too expensive to start their own, and it wouldn't have the same impact / take too long if they did "infomercial" type videos on the dashboard. All you would do is sell to the gamers already invested with a snail's pace. So what do they do?

 

I'm not saying Kinect is for kinect-only games. I've covered every category we know in my replies today and in previous topics. You can essentially break down kinect support into 3 categories:

 

Kinect games

Kinect supported games

and OS support.

 

The only one which has made any sort of impact is the OS functionality and even then to a niche group. The 2 former categories have yet to show compelling reasons to ever own one or to even develop for it. You can't shoehorn features in which are better suited to the controller (which is kinect support games e.g CoD, Skyrim etc). Kinect only games have some success when they suit the gameplay, something like Dance Central is undoubtedly better with motion controls than anything else, but the issue is the genre appeals to a niche and so you're not going to be raking money in from the hardcore either. Indie games are split between these 2 categories too. It doesn't change anything because they're a smaller studio or because their games are download only.

 

I'd like to hear from some of the people who were disappointed by the news last week and find out what sort of support they expected to see for Kinect on X1? What type of investment is going to save it? There's no need to worry about support for the OS ever being abandoned. Microsoft never dropped the support for Kinect 1 on the 360 even after it was long dead, right up to the latest dashboard in 2013.

 

That GB article I mentioned earlier is here