Microsoft to sell Xbox One without Kinect for

[vcfan]

WEAK

[DeltaXray]

Well, they are close enough in power, so that isn't really a concern. 

 

Close as in not really close at all?  I mean a 50% slower GPU and DDR3 isn't really 'close enough'...

[Boxster17]

They should've done this from the get go.  Can't say I'm surprised by this as they don't seem to be developing any games that make great use of Kinect (at least not enough to justify cramming it in every box).

[wakjak]

Well, they are close enough in power, so that isn't really a concern. 

 

If its so close in power.. why are there still resolution differences between multiplatform games?

 

http://blog.ubi.com/watch-dogs-next-gen-game-resolution-dynamism/

 

On new-gen systems the game will run at 900p on PS4 and 792p on Xbox One, at 30 frames-per-second on both consoles.

 

[trooper11]

I'll start off by saying that MS chose the second option I had been mentioned around here. They dropped Kinect from the bundle in order to drop the price. Now we can sit back and watch the fallout.

Regardless of how you feel about Kinect, you were not privy to MS' goals or the numbers they were looking at to gauge the choices to make. They looked at it all and decided that they needed to make the change now, maybe to do it early in order to get a quick boost in sales from more early adopters.

I'm interested to see a few things:

1. Does MS change their marketing to be more like Sony's marketing of the ps4 camera. What will a stand alone kinect be priced at? Will MS keep investing time and money to bring more features that use Kinect and improve the existing features?

2. The reaction by the internet community. Will there be a sudden influx of people excited about getting an X1 and a wave of positive vibes for the platform? Will there just be a switch in topics from these issues to how MS is still bad news because of the constant 180s?

3. Will MS have time to make all of the OS level changes needed so that anyone buying a kinect-less bundle has access to all of the features that use Kinect within reason (of course voice commands will be out and things like auto logins would be out) or will there be a gap for a while? Many like to talk about how little Kinect does, but the reality is different from an OS standpoint.

As for my personal feeling about it. In a perfect world, I would have tried to lower the price without unbundling, but if MS looked a the numbers and it just did not make sense, then they have done what they needed to do. I'm sure they aren't happy about the choice, but considering the feedback from people and the need for a price drop, sometimes you have to make a sacrifice.

I would love to see MS still aggressively push Kinect as more than just a gaming device and really keep improving its usage with the X1, so hopefully that does happen. I'm part of the small crowd that has enjoyed the experience and all the little features that it has added to the platform, so we will see if they still try to cater to that.

I also think its very interesting that MS announced this and the new Gold features before E3. I mean those two things alone are considered megaton-like announcements for many, so why not keep that until E3? I guess the hope is that it means MS really is going to focus on games at E3 and they have a good lineup to show off. This news has the potential to create positive buzz for MS leading up to E3 as well.

 

I'll start the auction at $20!

 

:p

You paid more than that for the ps4 camera which you found was better then the Kinect camera, but still. Be serious :p

 

 

Wow. Way to go MS. Nothing like changing your mind and back peddling on one of the core features of your console just 6 months after release.

Can you blame them? The people that like using Kinect or have interest in it are in the minority. The clear message from the internet community is for MS to drop it in some form.

Its a tough call to make, but hey, this is what most people wanted.

 

 

VR will be the next card that gets played and MS need to work on it ASAP if they aren't already. So desperation yes, but the "survival instinct" finally kicked in and they got their head out of the clouds.

VR is the new 3D or motion control, that is true. Not sure how MS should play that though. Its another big risk. They are being burned right now, is it wise to jump face first into trying to incorporate VR?

Sony is doing it, sure, but they also jumped into motion controls and 3D, so its not like its a guaranteed win for them. At this point, I would think about it very hard.

 

Removing Kinect doesn't mean it has to be forgotten about though. If that was ever anyone's concern then they do a lousy job of selling it today with only 2 games which are for sale and the rest of the benefits coming from the OS.

I agree that it has been poorly sold. It can be sold better though, even without more kinect-only titles.

I also agree that it does not mean it has to be forgotten, but considering how Sony treats their alternative, I'm hoping that is not where MS is going.

 

Removing Kinect would only be a blow to developer trust if they actually cared to implement it, and as I said above, that isn't the case and I'm willing to bet we'll hear from a few of them over the next few days congratulating them on the move. Cheaper consoles, more sales, more customers = happy publishers and devs.

Unfortunately, there are already indie developers that are working on games that use Kinect, so it will be a blow to some developers.

I'm the sure the majority will fall in line as you say, but its not going to be universal.

 

Voice control is one thing and only needs a mic, it's the motion, the passing fad, that MS wrongly invested heavily in IMO. Are there any numbers on how many people actually play Kinect games regularly and if it's something gamers actually "want" in large numbers?

Well as far as what Kinect can do. There is more to it then just voice control and gestures, but then those things were rarely brought up. MS at a high level was slow to articulate it.

As far as numbers, there aren't any. Just look at the internet community reaction if you want some kind of gauge. Even if they don't represent all gamers, their voice carries much more weight, so its a start.

 

PS4 records the last 15 minutes at all times so you never need to worry about missing out in the moment (unless your moment lasts 16 minutes  :s). I was under the impression the XB1 done something similar.

You are correct. The X1 is always recording the last 5 minutes and you can access that anytime by snapping in the game dvr app to capture and then jump into Upload Studio to edit. You do not need Kinect for that. The voice command is just a short cut that takes a quick 30 second clip.

 

 

X1 can only auto-record 30 second achievement unlocks or flagged moments in games without kinect, i.e when you rank up in BF4. I think it can also do it when it thinks something "cool" happened, i.e you have a kill streak etc. I get loads of them when I play and it can be random when it chooses to record, sometimes you're not really doing anything.

 

To record for 5 minutes you need to use the "Xbox, record that" command with Kinect.

 

The guide button is capable of multi-press commands so it wouldn't be too much to ask to add another or to customize it like you can the share button on the DS4. There's no delay and it's quicker than voice commands.

That is incorrect. I guess if you don't use the feature much, you might not stumble apon it, but as I said above, you can indeed make clips without Kinect.

[spenser.d]

 VR will be the next card that gets played and MS need to work on it ASAP if they aren't already.

 

Quite frankly I think VR is going to be about as popular as Kinect. I don't think it'll be the game changer people are talking about and, while I don't doubt Microsoft is thinking about their own VR, I don't think they'd hurt much by not getting on that bandwagon, just like Sony's not hurting by not getting on the Kinect bandwagon.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

VR is the new 3D or motion control, that is true. Not sure how MS should play that though. Its another big risk. They are being burned right now, is it wise to jump face first into trying to incorporate VR?

Sony is doing it, sure, but they also jumped into motion controls and 3D, so its not like its a guaranteed win for them. At this point, I would think about it very hard.

 

I agree that it has been poorly sold. It can be sold better though, even without more kinect-only titles.

I also agree that it does not mean it has to be forgotten, but considering how Sony treats their alternative, I'm hoping that is not where MS is going.

 

Unfortunately, there are already indie developers that are working on games that use Kinect, so it will be a blow to some developers.

I'm the sure the majority will fall in line as you say, but its not going to be universal.

That is incorrect. I guess if you don't use the feature much, you might not stumble apon it, but as I said above, you can indeed make clips without Kinect.

 

Well it is the new fad, but it's yet to be determined if it'll flop or not. I doubt Oculus will now that they have FB's backing, even with the resent towards it from the hardcore crowd. It's definitely a big risk to take, but MS have departments for these types of ideas and testing going on around the clock (as do most hardware companies). And again, just because Kinect have been unbundled doesn't mean it's dead. It can continue alongside the console and future peripherals/add-ons.

 

As for kinect titles, you and I have been over this numerous times, but there's no point saying it's not marketed as a gaming-only accessory as if somehow trying to avoid backlash, when they inadvertedly cause a backlash because they don't support it at all (besides 2 meddling reviewed games and OS integration). The "it's only 6 months in" excuse doesn't fly either when Kinect 1 came out the door with 10~ titles to support it. It needs to have game support, either as a prominent feature or at least a good back up role. There's nothing on the horizon which uses it in that way besides a few ID@Xbox titles that I've seen. If people want to nitpick you don't buy a console for indie games, you certainly don't justify Kinect with them either. The comments on Neowin's reports and elsewhere are proof enough. People wanted AAA games for kinect, not footnotes on a product description. If that wasn't MS's focus to begin with then there's nothing lost either. You're no worse off than you were yesterday with still nothing on the horizon besides Fantasia.

 

How do you record without Kinect? Would love to be able to do it without using it

[trooper11]

Close as in not really close at all?  I mean a 50% slower GPU and DDR3 isn't really 'close enough'...

The ram stuff is not as concrete as the gpu stuff is.

50% in raw performance difference is real. I think the gap can be reduced though, and by that I mean more games running at 1080p, not that suddenly the X1's gpu will become as powerful as the PS4's

[spenser.d]

Not sure if anyone's posted it, but you can preorder the new system already: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00KAI3KW2/34a6-20/

[+mram Subscriber²]

I would love to see MS still aggressively push Kinect as more than just a gaming device

 

It never was a gaming device; statistically speaking it was an interface tool.  For all that the Kinect provided, there were very few GAMES that used it in a way that was unique to GAMING.  For example, that driving game that used your hands instead of a steering wheel ... not sure if that ever saw the light of day, but that would be something that was using the kinect for gaming.  Logging in and out, instructing the unit to record the last few seconds, turning the unit on, that's not gaming.

 

And MS is more privy to the games coming down the pipeline -- I'd bet some easy odds that any games that used the kinect were more gimmick or pure interface tools than real AAA titles. 

 

At some point MS has to come to (or has come to) the understanding that if the games aren't going to come to the Kinect, they either need to do it themselves or just drop it.  Developers have spoken... or rather the consumers have spoken ... both are basically the same thing in this regard:  people won't pay for games that are imprecise or hard to control, and that's basically what the Kinect is.  In perfect scenarios it works great, but games are supposed to be fun, not struggling for the perfect scenario.  And given the choice, developers will always opt for the easy fun option, because that will be what sells.  That's fundamentally why devs aren't leaping to the Kinect platform for GAMING.  (Look at the reviews for Kinect Sports Rivals, they're all over the board, that does not bode well for a game released 6 months after the platform)

 

It still is an awesome niche interface item, but damn.  The writing was on the wall for this one the moment it was forcibly bundled.  You'd think MS would have learned...

[Raa]

But I thought that Kinect was required for the full Xbone experience... now they tell us that isn't so!?

If anyone believed that, they'll believe anything. :P

[trooper11]

Well it is the new fad, but it's yet to be determined if it'll flop or not. I doubt Oculus will now that they have FB's backing, even with the resent towards it from the hardcore crowd. It's definitely a big risk to take, but MS have departments for these types of ideas and testing going on around the clock (as do most hardware companies). And again, just because Kinect have been unbundled doesn't mean it's dead. It can continue alongside the console and future peripherals/add-ons.

How would you recommend MS proceed then? Take the risk with VR and jump in completely?

As far as Kinect continuing, it sure can, but then it can also take on a much more diminished role as far as the attention MS gives it internally. MS already reduced the role Kinect played publicly by toning down how much they spoke about it compared to last gen.

As for kinect titles, you and I have been over this numerous times, but there's no point saying it's not marketed as a gaming-only accessory as if somehow trying to avoid backlash, when they inadvertedly cause a backlash because they don't support it at all (besides 2 meddling reviewed games and OS integration). The "it's only 6 months in" excuse doesn't fly either when Kinect 1 came out the door with 10~ titles to support it. It needs to have game support, either as a prominent feature or at least a good back up role. There's nothing on the horizon which uses it in that way besides a few ID@Xbox titles that I've seen. If people want to nitpick you don't buy a console for indie games, you certainly don't justify Kinect with them either. The comments on Neowin's reports and elsewhere are proof enough. People wanted AAA games for kinect, not footnotes on a product description.

I didn't make that excuse. I also didn't say those things about indie games. So you can make claims about other people that post if you want, but my post s have not been there.

You claimed that no developers would be upset or harmed by this and I just wanted to remind you that that was not true. As I said, they are a minority voice since they are indies, so of course they don't count as much. Usually indie developers carry a lot of weight though when they speak out.

I'm not going to try to debate the usefulness of Kinect since that has been done, people are already very entrenched in their feelings about it, and it doesn't matter anymore. Those of us few that do enjoy all of the little features it brings to the platform that surface while in games and outside of them are aware of what Kinect is doing to make that happen. For the majority, you no longer need to care or debate it.

How do you record without Kinect? Would love to be able to do it without using it

Simple:

1. pause your game

2. jump to the dash

3. hit the snap tile

4. choose game dvr

5. select end clip

6. pick your time frame

done

To save some time, I just pin the Game DVR tile to the dash so that when I jump to the dash, I just hit that tile and can skip hitting the snap tile.

Then you can go into Upload Studio to edit the clip as you see fit.

I do that all the time since I want longer than 30 second clips. I hope that Sony and MS at some point just allow us to start a manual record option and record as much as we like based on our free storage.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Simple:

1. pause your game

2. jump to the dash

3. hit the snap tile

4. choose game dvr

5. select end clip

6. pick your time frame

done

To save some time, I just pin the Game DVR tile to the dash so that when I jump to the dash, I just hit that tile and can skip hitting the snap tile.

Then you can go into Upload Studio to edit the clip as you see fit.

I do that all the time since I want longer than 30 second clips. I hope that Sony and MS at some point just allow us to start a manual record option and record as much as we like based on our free storage.

 

Ah ok, not what I'm talking about or what I'm looking for. Can't be doing with that nonsense in MP games. Want a PS4 share button equivalent (Y)

 

As for developers being upset, I think Harmonix have been the only ones so far who are annoyed and I can't really tell if they're being serious not. The first few tweets were definitely sarcastic but the comments later sounded like they genuinely liked gamer's having more options. When you're going to be the only kinect game on the market for the foreseeable future, how annoyed can you really be though. Everyone is going to pick it up almost by default :laugh:

[trooper11]

It never was a gaming device; statistically speaking it was an interface tool.  For all that the Kinect provided, there were very few GAMES that used it in a way that was unique to GAMING. 

It still is an awesome niche interface item, but damn.  The writing was on the wall for this one the moment it was forcibly bundled.  You'd think MS would have learned...

The ironic thing is that I think they did learn.

Anyone that has followed the launch has seen MS message when it comes to Kinect. Just look back at all of the events up until now. MS already knew it was not going to make it as a stand alone device for gaming. It would be more useful as something that was leveraged by regular games in small or large ways and then as a new way to interact with your console.

Honestly, the only real issue is price. All this talk about how bad Kinect is has merit, but if MS had been able to hit a lower price point, it would have gone over better.

The features that Kinect does well has value, its just that its not enough value to enough people to warranty the price of the console. If Kinect was a $50 part and not a $150 part (or whatever the cost is), that would have gone over better as well.

Ah ok, not what I'm talking about or what I'm looking for. Can't be doing with that nonsense in MP games. Want a PS4 share button equivalent (Y)

It may not be what you are looking for, but it has worked fine for me while in MP games. Its not like jumping to the dash is slow.

It probably looks worse written out. But hey, having more experience on the ps4 will definitely lead to that reaction, no arguments.

The share button is very convenient.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

The ironic thing is that I think they did learn.

Anyone that has followed the launch has seen MS message when it comes to Kinect. Just look back at all of the events up until now. MS already knew it was not going to make it as a stand alone device for gaming. It would be more useful as something that was leveraged by regular games in small or large ways and then as a new way to interact with your console.

Honestly, the only real issue is price. All this talk about how bad Kinect is has merit, but if MS had been able to hit a lower price point, it would have gone over better.

The features that Kinect does well has value, its just that its not enough value to enough people to warranty the price of the console. If Kinect was a $50 part and not a $150 part (or whatever the cost is), that would have gone over better as well.

It may not be what you are looking for, but it has worked fine for me while in MP games. Its not like jumping to the dash is slow.

It probably looks worse written out. But hey, having more experience on the ps4 will definitely lead to that reaction, no arguments.

The share button is very convenient.

 

Well I wouldn't go that far yet with YouTube support missing and Sony having their own "list" to get content onto YT

 

1. Hit Share

2. Save Clip with any edits

3. Plug in USB device and transfer

4. wait.....

5. Plug into PC and upload to YouTube

6. wait.....

 

I mean, who uploads videos to Facebook?  :laugh:

[trooper11]

Well I wouldn't go that far yet with YouTube support missing and Sony having their own "list" to get content onto YT

 

1. Hit Share

2. Save Clip with any edits

3. Plug in USB device and transfer

4. wait.....

5. Plug into PC and upload to YouTube

6. wait.....

 

I mean, who uploads videos to Facebook?  :laugh:

Yeah, neither is perfect by any means.

At least MS seem to get more of it right at launch just by simply allowing the clips to upload to onedrive. Anyone can set up a free account and then use the video as they see fit. I simply didn't save clips on the ps4 until Sony started to allow clips to be saved to a flash drive. I was not interested in uploading to social media.

[uxo22]

But the kinect isn't necessary for those features to work, as demonstrated by the PS4's share button.

 

On the subject of the DVR features though, hopefully they do get patched in because I only have the auto-30 second clips available to me without Kinect, which sucks. And hopefully the unplugged kinect icon will be gone too

Me personally, I'd rather just day it.  I like Kinect, really don't know why some many people make such a big deal about it.  As long as it's not in my way, I have no problem with it.

[neoadorable]

honestly, I don't know. I don't have One yet.

 

Excuse me, out of the seven pages thus far this is the most shocking news. I mean that, no sarcasm. You don't have an X1? SEIZE HIM? What the hell man?

 

As for the Kinect..where to begin. We all knew this would happen, but this may be one 180 too many. I now fear Larry's prophecy may indeed come true...so in 2016 we'll get X1.1 with 16GB RAM and a biggger GPU that can do WQHD with supersampling? All for progress, but that goes a little too much against what the "agreed upon" concept of a console is. This is turning a forty year old industry into the smartphone business, where anything goes and the lifespan is a season.

 

Most likely i'm just being annoying. This is not a bad move from a sales standpoint, though it should have been so from the start. Six months on...i'd have stuck to my guns. This really goes to show us how much in fighting was going on there before Don left, i would not want to see him and Phil in a room together by themselves.

 

I also now know my own Kinect can see the future, having stopped working two weeks ago.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

I thought about this some more, and actually I am more ###### off about it then I was earlier.

 

I would have actually been fine with a price drop that still included Kinect. I could have sucked that up and absolutely written off as the price one pays for being an early adopter.

 

What I am not okay with is spending $100 more on a console at release and them taking away what was touted as one of the essential aspects of the overall experience itself. Kinect is the sole reason their console was $100 more at launch.

 

Even though I was never a fan of it, you can check my post history on this very site and see I have made it very clear I was not a fan of Kinect since it was introduced way back when, I came to grips with the fact the One was going to include it. Eventually I had no problem spending that additional $100 as I was assured that Kinect 2.0 was the differentiating factor that justified the reason their console's price was higher to begin with. That Kinect 2.0 offered a truly unique way of interacting with one's console. That what we were seeing at launch was only the beginning of what was possible with Kinect 2.0. The best was yet to come. Man, how little I actually knew.

 

So I just cannot come to grips with the fact this move today is the price one pays for being an early adopter.

What I do feel is this is the price one pays for dealing with a company who clearly does not commit to their plans and has no qualms or issues at all back pedaling on their stance. Even if the writing was on the wall, 6 months is hardly enough time to basically give up. Especially with technology. I think the PS3 is proof positive of this fact.

 

Yet here we are. And here I am stuck with a technology that I was forced to pay an extra $100 for that is now not going to get half the attention it would have gotten otherwise. And in keeping with my historical stance, I am not upset about game development. I am upset about the interactivity development. You just cannot convince me otherwise that they are now going to not dedicate as many resources as they would have otherwise if Kinect 2.0 was included with every console. That would be incredibly dumb to continue all out development for something all your audience will not own.

 

So MS and people can say they will still develop with Kinect 2.0 in mind. That fragmenting the audience is not going to impact the future of Kinect 2.0.

To that I respond really? Just refer to Google and Android to see how smoothly fragmenting the audience goes. And I happen to own an Android phone and Tablet, but I absolutely recognize things are not as smooth as they would be otherwise if the fragmentation did not exist to begin with.

 

It is just terribly disappointing as someone who did support the console on Day 1. Especially since I had many reservations doing so. Hell, I even cancelled my first preorder only to preorder it again about a month later. Now I am really wishing I listened to my gut. I would even actually consider it if I did not have so much damn credit due to Gift Cards for Live from Christmas. I truly would, but no way I am eating that money.

 

I simply now own an XBox One for exclusives and absolutely nothing else. Truth is that was pretty much my approach regardless, but now that is absolutely signed, sealed, and delivered.

 

So kudos MS. You really know how to treat your what I would think would be considered loyal customers. That is after all why I have the fancy controller with Day 1 written on it is it not?

[Charisma Veteran]

This is cheap but oh well. I guess People who complained about bundled kinect will immediately buy it now, right guys? :p

Actually... yes.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Man that's stupid, any hope of developer support (Outside the Kinect style games the 360 had) is gone now, they've managed to retroactively make the Kinect useless for people who already own it.

[Anthony Tosie Veteran]

Yet here we are. And here I am stuck with a technology that I was forced to pay an extra $100 for that is now not going to get half the attention it would have gotten otherwise. And in keeping with my historical stance, I am not upset about game development. I am upset about the interactivity development. You just cannot convince me otherwise that they are now going to not dedicate as many resources as they would have otherwise if Kinect 2.0 was included with every console. That would be incredibly dumb to continue all out development for something all your audience will not own.

If it makes you feel any better (it won't), I very seriously doubt their attention to Kinect will change, since they never devoted much attention to it to begin with.

 

As far as only now owning it for exclusive games: The TV functionality is still great, IMO. Not worth the extra $100, but still a very nice feature. In the end, I would have bought Kinect regardless, but Microsoft is still ###### poor about offering much support for it (including features, games, etc).

[Mandosis]

Its a little sad to see them do this but I fully understand why they did what they did. Hopefully a few more of my friends will pick up the console because of this. I personally feel that the Kinect makes up 1/4 of the functionality as I use it all the time and it just would not be the same without it.

[Brendeth]

Sad they are abandoning their vision, but otherwise glad that gamers are going to be a choice so early on and have a chance at a cheaper console right away. This might just be the thing they needed to push sales after the big game announcements at E3.

[Tha Bloo Monkee]

 

After everything about how it's needed and will make the gaming experience better, they remove it.  Hilarious!!