Waaay Late, Mac Specs Suck Now

[T3X4S]

Nope...just saying you can buy a new laptop every year and get high quality specs and get better value. You'd likely recoup a chunk selling a yr old laptop every cycle too.

 

Or you could buy a $1300 laptop (which will be a beast) and then in 3 years buy another if you like. Imagine the specs on that.

A really smart guy once said "everything is relative" - you should try listening to him.

What you consider value is not the same as everyone else.  Try to look at the ocean - not just your fish bowl.

[ZakO]

Personally, I think the biggest selling point for Mac computer is its longevity and long term value compared to PC.

 

I am still using Mac Pro 1.1 (2006) with SSD and it still runs great. My old iPhone 3G as a MP3 player and late 2010 MBP running SSD runs super fast. Heck, I sold my 2008 MBP for $260 via Amazon.

 

So ya... the price you are paying is pretty reasonable.

Are there any actual figures that show MBPs lasting longer than much cheaper Windows laptops? Don't get me wrong, I have a rMBP (need it for iOS development) and it's a nice machine, but I also have a Dell from 2007 which cost ?400 (less than 1/4 of the price of the equivalent MBP at the time) and with an SSD it still runs "super fast", many other people I know have the same. Honestly, a laptop made in 2010 + an SSD still running fast isn't very impressive.

The resale values are definitely nice on macs though, I've been upgrading mine every year and only taking a ~20% loss.

[Bigkaye]

Are there any actual figures that show MBPs lasting longer than much cheaper Windows laptops? Don't get me wrong, I have a rMBP (need it for iOS development) and it's a nice machine, but I also have a Dell from 2007 which cost ?400 (less than 1/4 of the price of the equivalent MBP at the time) and with an SSD it still runs "super fast" as do many other people I know. Honestly, a laptop made in 2010 + an SSD still running fast isn't very impressive.

The resale values are definitely nice on macs though, I've been upgrading mine every year and only taking a ~20% loss.

 

Just user experience really. I will vouch that a macbook will be functional longer than a PC will. I have a gateway laptop and a macbook both from the same year. Due to the macbook coming with slightly more ram and a slightly better processor it still plays youtube videos full screen. the PC don't. I also replaced EVERYTHING in the PC, DVD, HDDx2, RAM, Battery, LCD connector, keyboard. The macbook only needed a new battery, which spontaneously died and costed $160. Since they aren't user-replaceable anymore, least in the pros/airs, they are disposable laptops in my eyes unless I can mail the laptop away to apple care and get a new battery for the ~$150 mark, as the closest apple care is like 1800KM away in another country :(

[Beyond Godlike]

People are comparing specs only, which is sad.  There are other considerations(which actually made me buy my first apple product last year, a macbook air):

 

1.) Touchpad, I went from a gaming laptop to a macbook air for portability, so  it made no sense to need a mouse, and when using a PC touchpad they were always awful...the apple one makes me not even want to use a mouse on my mac

2.) Quality, every PC laptop in the high end range had issues, known heat issues (dell xps 15's for example are famous for having to downscale to do anything - and need 10+ bios updates to really be functional), bad touchpad, keyboard flex, cheap parts in general

3.) Software integration, apple makes everything, so itll work perfectly and reliably

4.) Battery life, 16 hours..nuff said

5.) Security, its unix, less of a target

 

Next year, when i do my 2 year refresh, the only comparable device i see out there so far are the MS Surfaces.  And no, not a fanboy...Android phone, PC desktop, ipad, macbook air, no brand loyalty here. 

[offroadaaron]

Anyone who would still pay $2,600 for a laptop is simply looking for a reason to spend more money than necessary.

 

This. If you're gonna spend that kind of money and you're looking for laptop with serious power, I'm sure you can find something far better.

 

Indeed ... and especially one without the fruity badge on the lid for about half the price or less!

 

 

And but it's plastic, crappy make and doesn't last. I've had my MBPr for 2 years now and it looks and performs exactly how I got it and I use it every day for work and at home. I have own other laptops and never again... Poorly build POS. You pay for what you get plus if I were to sell my 2012 MBPr now I'd get about $1800 back, there is no way a POS laptop would get anywhere near that amount second hard!

 

 

 

Nope...just saying you can buy a new laptop every year and get high quality specs and get better value. You'd likely recoup a chunk selling a yr old laptop every cycle too.

 

Or you could buy a $1300 laptop (which will be a beast) and then in 3 years buy another if you like. Imagine the specs on that.

 

 

If you actually believe the $1300 laptop is going to last 3 years you've gotta be kidding yourself. You probably go to walmart or something to buy your trashy $800-$1300 laptops. You look at a HP Probook or Lenovo Carbon and check out those "decent" plastic laptops and they are upmarket laptops. Still poorly designed and won't last 3 years!

 

Stick with your kinda my first laptop.... 

[tsupersonic]

And but it's plastic, crappy make and doesn't last. I've had my MBPr for 2 years now and it looks and performs exactly how I got it and I use it every day for work and at home. I have own other laptops and never again... Poorly build POS. You pay for what you get plus if I were to sell my 2012 MBPr now I'd get about $1800 back, there is no way a POS laptop would get anywhere near that amount second hard!

I highly doubt you would get $1800 back for a 2 year old used MBP. A brand new 15" starts at $1,999 with much better specs, not to mention it's new. Or you could get brand new 13" models for less and better specs.

[Brian M. Veteran]

I highly doubt you would get $1800 back for a 2 year old used MBP. A brand new 15" starts at $1,999 with much better specs, not to mention it's new. Or you could get brand new 13" models for less and better specs.

The 2012 had the dedicated graphics card, too, and it highly depends on the spec.

If he bought a 2012 2.6GHz with 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD, then $1600-1800 is achievable - it's still over $2k + tax to buy one refurbished.

[Guest]

You clearly didn't read what I said...  Those specs aren't even remotely close...

 

You exchange the SSD with a HDD for a vastly more powerful GPU and about $1000 less in price. I don't understand what you mean by the specs not being even remotely close?

 

Even if you keep the SSD, it would still be about 600-700 $ cheaper, yet the GPUs can't really be compared, the 880 GTX is a beast.

[Astra.Xtreme]

You exchange the SSD with a HDD for a vastly more powerful GPU and about $1000 less in price. I don't understand what you mean by the specs not being even remotely close?

Seriously?  Read what I said...

The MBPr has a more powerful CPU, MUCH HIGHER resolution screen, high capacity SSD (which makes a huge difference), will clearly get drastically better battery life, and probably has a much higher quality chassis.  That is a HUGE difference to your specs...  It doesn't take a genius to realize that...

 

How exactly does that not justify the extra $1000?  

 

Try to find a cheaper alternative. And don't post come crap with a 1080p screen and a HDD because that's a useless comparison...  That makes as much sense as comparing a Honda Civic to a Mercedes C-Class and being puzzled as to why the latter costs more...

[T3X4S]

And but it's plastic, crappy make and doesn't last. I've had my MBPr for 2 years now and it looks and performs exactly how I got it and I use it every day for work and at home. I have own other laptops and never again... Poorly build POS. You pay for what you get plus if I were to sell my 2012 MBPr now I'd get about $1800 back, there is no way a POS laptop would get anywhere near that amount second hard!

 

 

 

 

 

If you actually believe the $1300 laptop is going to last 3 years you've gotta be kidding yourself. You probably go to walmart or something to buy your trashy $800-$1300 laptops. You look at a HP Probook or Lenovo Carbon and check out those "decent" plastic laptops and they are upmarket laptops. Still poorly designed and won't last 3 years!

 

LOL - you just went from comparing specs and making a case for macs to fanboyism, fantasy, and flat out craziness.

And the "decent" Carbon ---   Tell ya what - you drop your mystical MBP from 5 feet, and I'll do the same with my X1 Carbon - I'll be pulling up neowin to tell everyone how you are crying about your mac.

and I think wally world's most expensive laptop is about $600 BTW - and they only sell Hewlett CRAPard, Dell, and Acer...

Why wouldnt a $1300 laptop last 3 years ?  I sold my T400 a couple years ago and it gets used every day - guy put an SSD in there so that damned thing will probably run forever.

In fact, the people I sold my T60 to are probably still using that !

I am in here making a case for macs, but you clearly need to be corrected and brought back down to earth.

[Mr.XXIV]

LOL - you just went from comparing specs and making a case for macs to fanboyism, fantasy, and flat out craziness.

And the "decent" Carbon ---   Tell ya what - you drop your mystical MBP from 5 feet, and I'll do the same with my X1 Carbon - I'll be pulling up neowin to tell everyone how you are crying about your mac.

and I think wally world's most expensive laptop is about $600 BTW - and they only sell Hewlett CRAPard, Dell, and Acer...

Why wouldnt a $1300 laptop last 3 years ?  I sold my T400 a couple years ago and it gets used every day - guy put an SSD in there so that damned thing will probably run forever.

In fact, the people I sold my T60 to are probably still using that !

I am in here making a case for macs, but you clearly need to be corrected and brought back down to earth.

 

The one thing that needs to be brought down is the terrible wifi reception on Windows laptops.

[+InsaneNutter MVC]

Put it this way the Intel HD Graphics 4000 in my MacBook Air can play Unreal 3 in 1440x900 (native) at 60fps, i can only imagine the Intel HD Graphics 5000 are even better.

Intel integrated graphics are not exactly bad these days, as much as I expected them to be when i got my MacBook Air. More than perfect for some casual gaming.

[xWhiplash]

Okay seriously these comparisons need to stop.  NOW.  You guys never do a good job at it.  Saying you can get a similar spec'ed system for less than $1,000 is just ridiculous.  

 

You need to do better comparisons you guys.  A 1080p laptop is not the same as a retina screen Macbook Pro.  It is NOT the same.  The difference DOES cost more money you know?

 

A 1TB 5400 (yes cheaper laptops come with 5400) or 7200 RPM Hard Drive is not the same as a PCIe flash storage.  It is not the same.  The difference DOES cost more you know?

 

Hey look, Newegg has a 1TB Samsung 840 Evo for $469.99.  I can get a 1TB Western Digital 7200 RPM drive for $45.  You do realize SATA SSDs are more expensive than spinning drives right?  And PCIe flash storage is more expensive than SATA drives.  Go look on newegg.  Even if you buy it yourself, SSDs are more expensive than hard drives.

 

And saying it would be better to buy $400 laptops every year, you have got to be kidding right?  How well will those systems handle video rendering?  Large photoshop work?  3D modeling?

 

If you do not need the retina screen, or pcie flash storage, or OSX, or other things that the rMBP has and can get by with a $400 laptop, that is your choice.  

 

So by everyone's logic here, are all Core i7 processors overpriced for Facebook?  Just because all you do is browse Facebook does not mean the i7 is overpriced.  You get what you need.  

 

Since when did seeing computers that have better specs than what you need become "overpriced"?  

 

I guarantee you, you cannot.....CANNOT find a similar spec machine for half the price.  SIMILAR SPEC......SIMILAR SPEC.  No 7200 hard drives, no 1080p displays, no 5 pound desktop replacements SIMILAR SPEC.

 

You also need to include iLife and iWork in the price.  Most cheap Windows systems do not include productivity software.  Including that in your purchase can sometimes increase the cost of that windows system by $350 (Office 2013 Professional)

 

You also need to include support.  I have contacted many companies in the past, and they all sent me to India, even Microsoft.  And I could not understand anything they were saying.  I would gladly pay several hundred more for Apple's support.

 

This is how you do a comparison.  The closes Dell laptop I can find to the base 13" rMBP is:

 

http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-13-9333/pd?oc=fncwp1502b&model_id=xps-13-9333

 

It is still missing:

 

Productivity software

The higher retina resolution

 

It does have touch, some might consider that a plus for the Dell.  I cannot stand touch so it does not matter to me.  I would rather have productivity software and higher resolution than touch.

 

Guess what, that Dell is the same price as the rMBP 13".

[francescob]

In short,

 

Windows laptops:

- Chance of crappy speakers

- Chance of crappy wifi

- Extremely high chance of an horrible touchpad

- Chance of the dreaded FN key in the worst places, and directional keys pgup/pgdown/insert/canc/home/end in the most unusable shapes and sizes.

- Chance of horrible drivers issues

- Chance of insane amounts of built-in garbage software that sometimes you can't even remove due to integration with other garbage custom hardware features (function keys, leds, etc.)

- Horrible battery life

- Chance of horribly cheap display panels

- Extremely short support. Yes, newer versions of Windows may install but you must pray there isn't anything wrong with the laptop preventing it.

 

Macbooks:

- Horrible IGPs (it's not that the Iris Pro is fast, it's that recent games have low requirements, any Intel IGP is nowhere comparable to a mid-range dedicated GPU still that doesn't mean that buying a laptop with scamcards like the nvidia 710M is anywhere near a good investment, an iris pro can be certainly good enough for non-gaming use)

- Drivers work like crap with Windows (fans often on and always the worst touchpad drivers)

- Keyboard is annoying as hell to use with Windows due to all the missing keys

- Expensive as hell but at least it has some decent resell value

 

To sum it up: Windows laptops = a bunch of random hardware glued together that hopefully works better than the previous one you had (e.g. you buy a i7 thinking it's fast but then it runs like crap because they put a cheap HDDs worse than your previous laptop's). Apple laptops = expensive as hell but at least they try to make sure every new version is an improvement to the previous one (that doesn't mean they always get it right or that it's a good investment to spend twice as much for an hardware that ages exactly like the others though). TL;DR: Either Microsoft starts doing something about manufacturers turning PCs into garbage or they shouldn't complain if everybody switches to 'dumber' tablets and other devices. Why haven't people starting asking Microsoft why they allow laptop manufacturers to install useless Intel raid software control panels, audio control panels, bajillions of spamware burning/dvd playing software, why they still do nothing about the touchpad quality and gestures, etc? They give the Windows logos to any piece of trash manufacturers can come up with and then they keep pointing the fingers to the manufacturers.

[adrynalyne]

I've always found it humorous when people try to claim Windows laptops as random hardware glued together.

 

 

If anyone is gluing crap together, it is Apple, and their crap isn't exactly name brand aside from the usual suspects (Intel).

 

Do Macs look nicer?  Sure.  Are they a better value laptop?  Yes, if you get their top of the line model which prices it out of some people's range.  Are they really different deep down, other than some specs?  No.

 

Plenty of people out there bitching about Apple hardware issues.  There are just less of them overall, because there are a hell of a lot less Macs out there.

[Ambroos]

I'm a long-time Windows user, and all I can say is that the fact remains: there are few high quality Windows laptops.

 

While Apple may not have the best stuff for all components, they have really good stuff for all components. I have only seen a few Windows laptops where you don't have to make some sort of compromise to get what you want.

 

One of the only Windows laptop lines I can remember that matched MacBooks in quality was the Vaio Z (which has unfortunately been dropped in late 2012). But, of course, it was also priced similar to Macs.

 

Macs are premium products, you can't deny that. On average they're less noisy (fans) than other laptops, they have the best trackpads without a doubt, they all have excellent displays, you get good service, they have great keyboards, ... Those things require some impressive engineering and manufacturing and that comes at a price.

[offroadaaron]

And the "decent" Carbon ---   Tell ya what - you drop your mystical MBP from 5 feet, and I'll do the same with my X1 Carbon - I'll be pulling up neowin to tell everyone how you are crying about your mac.

 

Good luck with that crappy Carbon trackpad ;) it's a doozy

[Mr.XXIV]

Shoot, good luck with the interior hardware regardless.

[ATLien_0]

Have you looked at the Refurb section on the Apple Store. Last I checked they had some Macbook Pro's from a year or so back that had the discreet GPU options for a pretty good discount. I'm using a MBP from 2011 with discreet ATI GPU, I7 and 16 gb ram bought from refurb, more than capable of handling everything 

[T3X4S]

Good luck with that crappy Carbon trackpad ;) it's a doozy

Anywhere MX - problem solved. 

Thats all you got ?  LOL -

 

[offroadaaron]

Anywhere MX - problem solved. 

Thats all you got ?  LOL -

 

 

 

So you bought a POS laptop that you can't use the trackpad then..... Cool... Great purchase!

[T3X4S]

Oh, and try and find someone in IT who thinks a Carbon X1 is a POS...

Ask an employee @ NASA, microsoft, google, or facebook if a ThinkPad or Carbon X1 is a POS -- know what they all have in common ?


offroad - I realize its pointless to argue with you (and most other mac people) - it quickly becomes like arguing religion - its pointless because the religious folk fail to admit they are wrong

I started by defending the MBP and their cost  -  but now I remember why I dont own one ... dont want to be pigeonholed as a mac user

[francescob]

I've always found it humorous when people try to claim Windows laptops as random hardware glued together.

 

They're not? I'm only talking about the internals: beside the chassis all the internal components are often chosen from the cheapest the market has to offer. VGA webcams, Conexant audio, ALPS or Elantech touchpads, SiS/Via chipsets, ralink wireless cards, ultracheapy giant PSUs, horrible quality washed-out-colors TN-panels, battery-killing ultracheap videocards that are almost as slow as the IGP that they only put to trick the users into thinking having a dedicated card is always better, etc. The choice for laptops with truly decent hardware is extremely thin (some Samsung, IBMs and maybe a few Asus models). And then there are the fancy useless proprietary features the manufacturers love to put that kills the compatibility with new Windows versions, or even just hardware where they change the device descriptors just to lock it to the original drivers (e.g. laptop videocards). It's like with printers, manufacturers sell complete garbage because most people will accept buying that garbage. Finding a decent Windows laptop to buy is often one hell of a mess, I had to completely give up buying laptops on Internet because not even God can tell what garbage they put inside until you see them in person.

[offroadaaron]

Oh, and try and find someone in IT who thinks a Carbon X1 is a POS...

Ask an employee @ NASA, microsoft, google, or facebook if a ThinkPad or Carbon X1 is a POS -- know what they all have in common ?

offroad - I realize its pointless to argue with you (and most other mac people) - it quickly becomes like arguing religion - its pointless because the religious folk fail to admit they are wrong

I started by defending the MBP and their cost  -  but now I remember why I dont own one ... dont want to be pigeonholed as a mac user

 

You don't know my background in IT pal but okay. Also you can throw fanboy in there all you want but my desktops have always been Windows and my laptops have always been Apple, I've tried to move away but I just can't find anything that is build as well as the MBA for the price. Because I base my opinion on the trackpad of the carbon being a POS it means I'm instantly a fanboy? Hmmmm Interesting.

[adrynalyne]

They're not? I'm only talking about the internals: beside the chassis all the internal components are often chosen from the cheapest the market has to offer. VGA webcams, Conexant audio, ALPS or Elantech touchpads, SiS/Via chipsets, ralink wireless cards, ultracheapy giant PSUs, horrible quality washed-out-colors TN-panels, battery-killing ultracheap videocards that are almost as slow as the IGP that they only put to trick the users into thinking having a dedicated card is always better, etc. The choice for laptops with truly decent hardware is extremely thin (some Samsung, IBMs and maybe a few Asus models). And then there are the fancy useless proprietary features the manufacturers love to put that kills the compatibility with new Windows versions, or even just hardware where they change the device descriptors just to lock it to the original drivers (e.g. laptop videocards). It's like with printers, manufacturers sell complete garbage because most people will accept buying that garbage. Finding a decent Windows laptop to buy is often one hell of a mess, I had to completely give up buying laptops on Internet because not even God can tell what garbage they put inside until you see them in person.

Way to compare 250 dollar crap machine internals when talking about macs in comparison. 

 

Not biased at all...