Sony sued over Killzone: Shadow Fall's graphics

[GotBored]

To be fair the game is 1080p in single player.

 

I don't see this case going anywhere.

[JonnyLH]

Got to say, when I read about this it cracked me up.

 

In all fairness, it is false advertising. On the internet, even in materials you find now, it still mentions all the game being 1080p (Well it is in singleplayer). With the 360, even though games were supporting of 1080p through up-scalling there was never any lie to what the actual render resolution was. With this, Sony technically lied and it got found out 3 months later. It's not 1080p as it uses a interlacing method to achieve it essentially halving the resolution when moving.

 

Is it a class lawsuit? Haha no.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Its actually not interlacing, from Guerilla

Q: So how does ?temporal reprojection? work and what?s the difference with up-scaling?

Up-scaling is a spatial interpolation filter. When up-scaling an image from one resolution to another, new pixels are added by stretching the image in X/Y dimension. The values of the new pixels are picked to lie in between the current values of the pixels. This gives a bigger, but slightly blurrier picture.

Temporal reprojection is a technique that tracks the position of pixels over time and predicts where they will be in future. These ?history pixels? are combined with freshly rendered pixels to form a higher-resolution new frame. This is what KILLZONE SHADOW FALL uses in multiplayer.

So, in a bit more detail, this is what we need for this technique:

We keep track of three images of ?history pixels? sized 960x1080

The current frame

The past frame

And the past-past frame

For each pixel we store its color and its motion vector ? i.e. the direction of the pixel on-screen

We also store a full 1080p, ?previous frame? which we use to improve anti-aliasing

Then we have to reconstruct every odd pixel in the frame:

We track every pixel back to the previous frame and two frames ago, by using its motion vectors

By looking at how this pixel moved in the past, we determine its ?predictability?

Most pixels are very predictable, so we use reconstruction from a past frame to serve as the odd pixel

If the pixel is not very predictable, we pick the best value from neighbors in the current frame

On occasion the prediction fails and locally pixels become blurry, or thin vertical lines appear. However, most of the time the prediction works well and the image is identical to a normal 1080p image. We then increase sub-pixel anti-aliasing using our 1080p ?previous frame? and motion vectors, further improving the image quality.

[McKay]

I wonder if the same will happen to the order, given its 1920x800 without those black bars.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I wonder if the same will happen to the order, given its 1920x800 without those black bars.

 

GT5 is 1280x1080 and has been called 1080p without a lawsuit.

 

At least with The Order what you see of the game is simply full res, just like a movie with black bars is 1080p. But who knows maybe this guy will sue Sony not putting the viewing ratio on The Order box.

[Knife Party]

I think I'm going to sue Sony because the game graphics for my old PS1 games don't look as good as the pre-rendered CG cut-scenes they put on the game cases...(sarcasm)

one game: syphon filter

[trooper11]

GT5 is 1280x1080 and has been called 1080p without a lawsuit.

 

At least with The Order what you see of the game is simply full res, just like a movie with black bars is 1080p. But who knows maybe this guy will sue Sony not putting the viewing ratio on The Order box.

 

That would be perfect :laugh:  He would better represent the insanity of some online reacting to the whole resolution business. Maybe this will help calm down the arguments, illustrating how silly it gets.

[vcfan]

the box resolution argument will never fly, because theres no deception there, the output is 1080p period, whether the game is 1080p native or upscaled.

 

have said that, if the lawyers were smart, they would use the other instances of sony stating a certain performance for a game that didnt turn out to be true, instead of relying on the box details, like stating watchdogs is 1080p60fps when it was 900p30fps, or saying battlefield hardline beta is 1080p60fps when it turned out to be 900p and variable fps. it shows a pattern of deceit.

 

wanting $5 million is ridiculous on the surface, but like any lawsuit, you usually aim high because if it comes down to a settlement, you have way more negotiating room to get a higher return.

[francescob]

Should have bought Chillzone instead.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Sony misled consumers, that much is clear. Is a multi-million dollar lawsuit appropriate? I'm not sure but certainly it would send a message that publishers cannot deliberately deceive consumers, which I think would be a positive thing.

[Gerowen]

To be fair the game is 1080p in single player.

 

I don't see this case going anywhere.

That's what I was just thinking.  I haven't played it, I don't even own a PS4, but it's not uncommon for games to be "toned down" in multiplayer, especially in split screen mode, to help compensate for the extra workload of dealing with network latency and having to render everything twice (once for each player in splitscreen).  Play CoD in split screen on an XBox 360/PS3 and look at how washed out the textures get, let alone the resolution.  My question is who in the world got so bored that they paused it and started counting pixels, and then thought it was important enough for a lawsuit?

[BajiRav]

Its actually not interlacing, from Guerilla

I am not an image processing expert but they are not rendering a 1920x1080 frame and that's where the lawsuit stems from. Sony/GG should have never claimed a "native 1080p" when they knew they are not true 1080p in one instance of the game.

Apart from that, their explanation sounds PR ######. Don't call it "Scaling" call it "temporal reprojection". Yeah sure - you are extrapolating pixels and not rendering them in both cases.

 

The lawsuit is stupid and pointless because the 1080p on the box will legally stand in the court but that doesn't mean Sony/GG didn't lie. They pandered to the resolution warriors and now it is biting them back.

 

That's what I was just thinking.  I haven't played it, I don't even own a PS4, but it's not uncommon for games to be "toned down" in multiplayer, especially in split screen mode, to help compensate for the extra workload of dealing with network latency and having to render everything twice (once for each player in splitscreen).  Play CoD in split screen on an XBox 360/PS3 and look at how washed out the textures get, let alone the resolution.  My question is who in the world got so bored that they paused it and started counting pixels, and then thought it was important enough for a lawsuit?

There is a whole bunch of people on this forum who are "concerned" about the pixel resolution. Have a look here. https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1198885-ps4-and-xbox-one-resolution-frame-rate-discussion/

[McKay]

Sony misled consumers, that much is clear. Is a multi-million dollar lawsuit appropriate? I'm not sure but certainly it would send a message that publishers cannot deliberately deceive consumers, which I think would be a positive thing.

 

It's the only way to get through to gigantic corporations these days. Had he wrote a letter of complaint he would either

 

A. Get ignored

B. Get a generic apology letter and a $10 PSN Voucher

[vcfan]

SAN FRANCISCO (CN) - A class action lawsuit accusing Sony Computer Entertainment of embellishing how good the graphics are in its "Killzone: Shadow Fall" videogame will proceed, a federal judge ruled.

In the class action filedthis past August, lead plaintiff Douglas Ladore claims that Sony's "Killzone: Shadow Fall" videogame - pitched by the company as a "crowning achievement in the videogame industry" - was advertised to have multiplayer mode graphics in full 1080p high-definition resolution, but didn't meet that bar.

"Gamers quickly noticed and complained that Killzone's multiplayer graphics were blurry to the point of distraction," Ladore's complaint alleges.

Sony moved to dismiss the complaint on several grounds. The company argued that its representations about the graphics weren't false, that Ladore didn't adequately plead reliance on any alleged misrepresentation, that the game doesn't fall under the California Consumer Legal Remedies Act and that the "economic loss rule" bars Ladore's tort claim for negligent misrepresentation.

But on Tuesday, U.S. District Judge Edward Chen denied all but one of Sony's arguments, holding the company's motion was "premised on an unduly narrow reading of plaintiff's complaint."

"The substantial majority of the arguments Sony raises in its motion to dismiss can be rejected for two simple reasons - either Sony's arguments ignore important factual allegations that are well pleaded in Ladore's complaint, or Sony's arguments require this court to construe the complaint in the light most favorable to Sony, rather than Ladore, who is entitled to the benefit of all reasonable inferences at this stage of the proceedings," Chen wrote.

On Ladore's negligent misrepresentation cause of action, however, Chen found the claim inadequately pleaded under the economic loss rule since Ladore hadn't asserted any noneconomic losses stemming from his purchase of the game.

Ladore has 30 days to file an amended complaint. He is represented by Mark Eisen with Edelson P.C., of Los Angeles

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2014/12/17/3563.htm

[MorganX]

Given that resolution and frame rate are "major" selling points in a very competitive market, it's fair game.

[Polonium]

People need to get a grip to be honest. It's a video game that plays great, looks great. Trying to make money out of it is bordering on insane.

[rfirth]

People need to get a grip to be honest. It's a video game that plays great, looks great. Trying to make money out of it is bordering on insane.

 

I've got a nice glass of chocolate milk for you that cures cancer!*

 

*If your cancer is made of temporally reprojected thirst... No refunds!

[Argi]

1080p = 16:9 = 1920:1080 ... shouldn't be any confusion there.

 

And yes, deceptive advertising needs repercussions.  Otherwise companies will do it again and again and against.

[spenser.d]

People need to get a grip to be honest. It's a video game that plays great, looks great. Trying to make money out of it is bordering on insane.

Oh the irony.

[GotBored]

 

 

Ladore has 30 days to file an amended complaint. He is represented by Mark Eisen with Edelson P.C., of Los Angeles

 

Basically the courts aren't throwing out Ladore's claims due to SCE's counter claims, but they rejected his complaint regardless and he has to resubmit a new one within 30 days. Maybe we should wait till something actually comes from it before we regurgitate a four month old thread.

[Polonium]

Oh the irony.

 

Ironic? Not at all. Do you see me trying to sue Microsoft for releasing games that are sub 1080p? Nope. Do you see me trying to sue Sony for the same thing? No..

 

Irony would have been the case if I was saying that a sub 1080p made the game play poorly. Something I've never once said. 

[spenser.d]

Ironic? Not at all. Do you see me trying to sue Microsoft for releasing games that are sub 1080p? Nope. Do you see me trying to sue Sony for the same thing? No..

 

Irony would have been the case if I was saying that a sub 1080p made the game play poorly. Something I've never once said.

No, but the irony is you telling people to get a grip because the game plays great and looks great, yet you flog Xbox One games in the framerate/resolution thread solely because they aren't 1080p and/or 60fps, even though they all still generally look and play great. We've basically been telling you all to get a grip for a year now and you ignore it, until Sony comes under fire for the same nonsense.

[Polonium]

You think what ya want pal - my only issue with Xbox One games being less than 1080p or 60fps is when the same game on 'the other' platform performs better. I'd hardly call it flogging the Xbox version, more mocking the fact that MS have royally buggered up this generation of their console.

 

As I say though, think what ya want, it's really no issue to me.

[compl3x]

All but one of Sony's arguments against Killzone lawsuit dismissed

 

A federal judge has ruled that a class action lawsuit concerning the resolution of Killzone: Shadow Fall may proceed once the lead plaintiff files an amended complaint, according to arelease from the US District Court. Lead Plaintiff Douglas Ladore's initial complaint, as reported in August by Courthouse News, alleges that Sony's claim of "razor-sharp 1080p native resolution" is false advertising, as Ladore claims Shadow Fall's multiplayer becomes "blurry to the point of distraction."

 

Shadow Fall developer Guerrilla Games released a statement in November addressing the game's resolution, explaining that a technique called "temporal reprojection" is used in multiplayer, which "combines pixels and motion vectros from multiple lower-resoultion frames to reconstruct a full 1080p image." The statement added, "If native means that every part of the pipeline is 1080p then this technique is not native."

In the recent ruling, US District Judge Edward Chen dismissed all but one of Sony's arguments - Chen agreed Ladore's negligent misrepresentation claim cannot stand in its current state, as Ladore did not present a non-economic loss (such as personal injury or property damage) suffered in relation to his purchase of Shadow Fall. However, Chen granted Ladore 30 days to file an amended complaint, in case he can "sufficiently allege that he or other putative class members suffered such non-economic damages."

 

http://www.joystiq.com/2014/12/20/all-but-one-of-sonys-arguments-against-killzone-lawsuit-dismiss/

[Hedon]

Well, it shouldn't be dismissed. More and more companies should be called out for deceptive marketing and lies.