Xbox One features coming with the Windows 10 upgrade


Recommended Posts

So I'm surprised this did not even make the front page of this site yet, but here is a run down of the major features coming to the X1 and Windows 10:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/windows-10

There is no video of the live feed yet that showed off more detail about these features, but I'll add it when there is.

So to list a summary of what is coming:

1. Streaming Xbox One games: So this sounds like a similar setup to the PS4's remote play and it will work on any Windows 10 pc or tablet

2. Cross platform multiplayer: From the live feed, it sounded like this was an OS level feature that allows any cross platform game to offer this. We will need to hear more about the details, but this is a big change if MS is going to allow any cross platform developer to hook into XBL from the pc.

3. XBox features on the PC: This one is not X1 related per se, but it was very cool to see features like GameDVR built into Windows. On the live stream they loaded up Civilization via Steam and while in game, they were able to call up the GameDVR to make a clip which could then be modified and uploaded just like the X1. It also natively syncs with the X1 activity feed.

Then there is the HoloLens:

http://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-hololens/

So there is so much we dont know about this AR device. They clearly say that it was built with gaming in mind during the stream along with its other uses, but its not even clear if this is for pc only or X1 as well. There is no pricing or firm launch date other than when Win 10 launches. This is definitely a dark horse. We will have to wait for more details and impressions. If it is coming to the X1, then we will need to see content.

cross platform play isn't new, but something they're trying to revive again. we had it on the 360, not sure if any other games than shadowrun used it.

It isn't new, but I thought that it was very limited in scope on the 360, plus it was not marketed as something any game could tap into. What I'm waiting to hear is if MS is allowing any developer to tap into this without extra effort. That would make it different from their attempts in the past.

With the rise of MMO-like experiences, this is a feature that could be tapped into alot more.

It isn't new, but I thought that it was very limited in scope on the 360, plus it was not marketed as something any game could tap into. What I'm waiting to hear is if MS is allowing any developer to tap into this without extra effort. That would make it different from their attempts in the past.

With the rise of MMO-like experiences, this is a feature that could be tapped into alot more.

 

It was marketed pretty heavily.  It was part of Games for Windows Live and was one of the big selling points of it at the time.  They also had Xbox achievements integration on the PC, voice chats across platforms, send/recieve messages across platforms, cross platform friends lists, etc..  I've never owned an Xbox but I have a "Gamertag" for an Xbox Live account and achievements because of Games for Windows Live.  Games for Windows Live failed horribly and I'm not sure what's different about Xbox Live that would avoid a similar fate.  On the surface at least they look nearly identical (I don't mean the UI, but the capabilities).

 

I'm not sure why Games for Windows Live failed.  I think it's because Steam had already taken root and developers didn't want to tie their games to BOTH Steam APIs and GFWL APIs.  On the PC developers chose Steam over it.  If that is the reason again I don't see what makes that any different now.  If anything Steam is MORE entrenched now so to PC gamers having Steam achievements and steam messages, and such is more important the Xbox Live compatibility.  It should be interesting to see how it turns out though.

Gfwl was just a messy middleware app, like steam is, but it had issues. The Windows 10 stuff, as far s live goes is native to the OS now, not a app in the middle talking to the game and service. So is the GameDVR feature, native, which is why it works with any game on the PC.

 

And since the Live APIs are the same, as is DX12, developers have little to change when building their game, once it works on the Xbox One then it should work on Windows 10.

 

It'll also help if this time MS supports it more directly with it's first party titles and lets desktop games be sold and managed directly through the new Windows Store.

Gfwl was just a messy middleware app, like steam is, but it had issues. The Windows 10 stuff, as far s live goes is native to the OS now, not a app in the middle talking to the game and service. So is the GameDVR feature, native, which is why it works with any game on the PC.

 

And since the Live APIs are the same, as is DX12, developers have little to change when building their game, once it works on the Xbox One then it should work on Windows 10.

 

It'll also help if this time MS supports it more directly with it's first party titles and lets desktop games be sold and managed directly through the new Windows Store.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "messy middleware app".  It's a set of APIs a developer can use to provide friends lists, voice chat, achievements, etc.  It's middleware in that Gfwl didn't come with the OS sure but it was from the OS developer and it's still just a set of APIs to use or not.  Xbox Live IS still an app in the middle talking to the game and a service, it's just that app now ships with the OS instead of being installed later.  Maybe Gfwl was poorly written and Xbox Live isn't but their both just APIs a developer can choose to use or not.

 

The problem is if a developer chooses to use the Xbox Live API for voice chat so they can chat with Xbox Live users... then they aren't going to be able to voice chat with Steam users.  They'll divide their community between some people using one and some using another and so they're going to pick one.  Same with achievements, matchmaking, etc.  I could be wrong and I'm interested to see how it turns out but I don't see them picking MS APIs over Steam.  Especially since most will likely still be using Steam as their primary distribution platform.

 

The only ones that clearly benefit from this are former Xbox exclusives that want to move to PC but the bar was previously too high.  Now that bar is lower but if they were formerly Xbox exclusives I bet there is going to be some pressure for them to stay that way.  Fable Legends is a good example of this and I really hope it pans out and most Xbox exclusives become Xbox/Win10 exclusive instead.  As a PC gamer who doesn't own an Xbox I think that would be great because there would be absolutely no reason to ever buy an Xbox if pretty much everything comes out on PC as well.  I'm pretty sure a large faction of the Xbox community would be VERY upset if there were no more (or very few) Xbox exclusives though.

He means the downloader was terrible and that you had to launch a game just to patch it was retarded.  Game won't launch?  TOO BAD!

 

I didn't hate GfWL, but it was definitely messy.

 

From what I can tell Xbox Live for Win10 doesn't do downloading or patching at all.  So in a sense it's actually LESS than GfWL was (even if GfWL did it poorly)

 

Either way there must be some UI or whatever to view your achievements, friends list, etc.  That UI is just an app that happens to be bundled with the OS.

 

If a game developer releases a game that uses the Win10/Xbox friends list a lot of people aren't going to have any friends on that.  Heck some people who buy that game won't even have Win10 so it won't work even if they do have an Xbox too.  Also where are they getting the game from?  If they're downloading it from Steam they presumably DO have friends and achievements and such on Steam so now they've got this game they just downloaded from Steam that has a friends list from Xbox (which they may or may not own) and not Steam and doesn't even work for anyone who for whatever reason hasn't upgraded to Win10.  I just don't see developers making that choice.  I think they'll stick with Steam but again it should be interesting to watch.  If MS wants to compete with Steam they need to offer to sell the games and do the patches and such too and then convince game developers to use the MS Store over Steam but that doesn't appear to be what they're doing here.

 

Now the Game DVR is something that will work with anything because it doesn't depend on a community.  THAT I can see being big because it doesn't matter what the people you play with are using, it's just recording stuff on your screen.  Your friends have to be using the same friends list as you though, they have to be using the same chat servers, they have to be using the same match making service, etc. for it to work together and Steam already has a dominant position in those areas.  I just don't seem game developers choosing to split their community by supporting both or choosing the Xbox solution over the established tools Steam provides... especially if they're still selling the game on Steam.

From what I can tell Xbox Live for Win10 doesn't do downloading or patching at all.  So in a sense it's actually LESS than GfWL was (even if GfWL did it poorly)

Yah, they call that part the Windows Store now.  So, not really, it just isn't all integrated into one set.

Yah, they call that part the Windows Store now.  So, not really, it just isn't all integrated into one set.

Well it will be interesting to see if there is a mass exodus for PC games from Steam to Windows Store as their primary digital distribution method.

Whoever wins that will likely win the "middleware" battle for features that depend on community (voice chat, friends lists, etc.)

Maybe MS will pull it off but if I had to bet my money would be on Steam (like them or not).

It's middleware just like steam is, to do anything in steam you need the client, just like uplay, just like what EA has. If the clients aren't installed you can't access the backend, and you need it. GfWL was no different, it acted just like the others, had to be part of the install.

 

That's not the case anymore, the needed APIs are part of the OS, natively.  While there is a Xbox app, it's not needed for games to use the Live APIs, the app really just helps with the social parts outside of any games.

 

Just look at the game dvr feature built into Windows 10 as well, it's part of it, no app in the middle like fraps. It thus works with everything, nothing has to be done on the game side.

 

I believe games will be no different, developers won't need to code a Xbox for Windows version to use it like they have with one of the other stores out there, it should be the same as the Xbox One. You install the game through the store and it works, nothing else to install, no clients sitting between the game and the backend service.

It was marketed pretty heavily.  It was part of Games for Windows Live and was one of the big selling points of it at the time.  They also had Xbox achievements integration on the PC, voice chats across platforms, send/recieve messages across platforms, cross platform friends lists, etc..  I've never owned an Xbox but I have a "Gamertag" for an Xbox Live account and achievements because of Games for Windows Live.  Games for Windows Live failed horribly and I'm not sure what's different about Xbox Live that would avoid a similar fate.  On the surface at least they look nearly identical (I don't mean the UI, but the capabilities).

Only one game made use of a similar capability: Shadowrun

It was promoted, but I dont remember it ever talked about in this fashion. There was certainly not easy access to the xbl apis for any developer. I used GFWL myself, but it never felt really connected outside of the syncing of data. The UI and OS just seemed so removed from what everyone was use to on the Xbox and it was not as refined as the Steam client.

If MS is truly going with a more open option this time, one that is built into the OS and not tied to a seperate app, then I think this a great improvement. The Xbox app coming to Win 10 is not a replacement for GFWL. It will not be managing updates, etc. Its there to bring a unified experience between the X1 and PCs. It will offer many of the same features of GFWL as far as syncing achievements and such, but with a UI that does not seem clunky compared to Steam. We will have to see if the app will grow in capability to be more like a Steam experience or if it will stick with being a unified app for gaming related social features across pcs and xbox.

 

The only ones that clearly benefit from this are former Xbox exclusives that want to move to PC but the bar was previously too high.  Now that bar is lower but if they were formerly Xbox exclusives I bet there is going to be some pressure for them to stay that way.  Fable Legends is a good example of this and I really hope it pans out and most Xbox exclusives become Xbox/Win10 exclusive instead.  As a PC gamer who doesn't own an Xbox I think that would be great because there would be absolutely no reason to ever buy an Xbox if pretty much everything comes out on PC as well.  I'm pretty sure a large faction of the Xbox community would be VERY upset if there were no more (or very few) Xbox exclusives though.

MS is always in the unfair position of having to choose between the two platforms. Sony and Nintendo get to happily keep games from the pc and get little flac over it. MS gets yelled at all the time becuase they have any exclusive games on the Xbox. Its usually from pc gamers that dont want any console, but you rarely hear that outcry against any other console platform.

I dont know what the answer is. You laid it out pretty clearly. If MS made all X1 games available on the pc, you would have no reason to buy an xbox. You dont care if it kills the xbox becuase you had no interest to begin with. Unfortuantely, MS can't think of it in those terms. They have to compete against Sony and Nintendo. Who do they have to compete with on pc? Steam is not a competitor, its a service that runs on MS' platform. Heck, MS even mentioned them as part of the live event. They are building OS level features that can be used while using Steam. That's a sign that MS is more interested in growing Windows vs 'taking out' Steam.

 

 

Well it will be interesting to see if there is a mass exodus for PC games from Steam to Windows Store as their primary digital distribution method.

Whoever wins that will likely win the "middleware" battle for features that depend on community (voice chat, friends lists, etc.)

Maybe MS will pull it off but if I had to bet my money would be on Steam (like them or not).

Where is the evidence that MS intends to fight that battle? It seems to me that MS may be trying to avoid that fight and instead focus on brining X1 gaming features over to Windows that you can use regardless of the service you are using.

I hope we actually see MS reach out to Steam, Origin, GOG, etc and allow them to be a part of the Windows Store. Its not so far fetched either. Stores within a store so to speak.

Only one game made use of a similar capability: Shadowrun

That's not true. Shadowrun was the launch title for the capability but it wasn't the ONLY game that made use of it.

According to the Wikipedia text here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_for_Windows_%E2%80%93_Live

Universe at War: Earth Assault from Sega and Lost Planet: Colonies Edition from Capcom also included cross platform play. I doubt that's a comprehensive list of every game to ever support it though either.

Furthermore they have a list of games here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Games_for_Windows_%E2%80%93_Live_titles

Which supported it for Multiplayer, Matchmaking, etc. so it would have likely been trivial to add cross platform support if they wanted, since they were already using the APIs but the developers CHOSE not to either because they didn't want to player bases to mix or they just didn't release a console version of the game at all.

Any game that's on PlayStation 3 and PC could theoretically be cross platform as well. Sony didn't have chat servers and such last gen (that's new for the PS4 and why you now have to play for multiplayer) and doesn't have a "walled garden" so when a company rolls their own voice solution for their game nothing prevents them from letting PS3 and PC players connect to the same sever. Yet they CHOOSE to segregate the communities. They do that due to perceived advantages in controls between the communities as well as because on PC they can roll out patches as fast as they want where they have to submit them for approval on consoles and they don't want to hold up PC releases because of console approval issues since you have to have the same version to connect. None of this has changed between then and now.

It was promoted, but I dont remember it ever talked about in this fashion. There was certainly not easy access to the xbl apis for any developer.

Well I'm sorry you don't remember it but it WAS promoted pretty heavily and it was touted in the same way. It was a way to unify Vista and Xbox 360 player bases, common friends list, achievements, cross platform messaging and voice chat, etc. It was pushed pretty hard and there absolutely was easy access to the xbl apis for developers. Epic even integrated support for it into Unreal Engine 3 so if you were an Unreal engine licensee most of the work was already done for you. There wouldn't be that long list of games that supported various parts of it if it was difficult for developers to use.

I used GFWL myself, but it never felt really connected outside of the syncing of data. The UI and OS just seemed so removed from what everyone was use to on the Xbox and it was not as refined as the Steam client.

I'm not arguing the UI for the client was good. That's subjective and it has nothing at all to do with how available and easy the APIs are for developers to use. I thought the UI was bad as well but then again I think the Steam UI is pretty bad too. Personally I can't stand the aesthetics of the "flat" UI MS uses in Win10 either but that's just cosmetics and not a major factor in my OS decision. I'm actually looking forward to Win10 overall despite the fact I think the UI is pretty ugly. To each his own but that's beside the point.

If MS is truly going with a more open option this time,

If MS is truly going with a more open option this time they'd find some way to link with existing systems instead of trying to replace them. You'd be able to voice chat from an Xbox to Steam to PSN, that's open. They're not going with a more open option this time, they're trying to promote a new version of their closed option.

one that is built into the OS and not tied to a seperate app, then I think this a great improvement.

So because the Xbox Live app is bundled with the OS instead of being a separate download that somehow makes it inherently better? It's still an app. It just happens to come with the OS instead of separately. That doesn't inherently make any difference at all. Maybe it's prettier, maybe it's better written, but the fact it comes with the OS by itself or as you call it "built into the OS" doesn't make it better all by itself.

The Xbox app coming to Win 10 is not a replacement for GFWL. It will not be managing updates, etc.

The point was that the cross platform support, achievements, friends list, etc. aren't new to Xbox Live. They already tried all of that with GFWL. No it doesn't sell you games or manage updates, they have the Windows Store for that now so it doesn't make sense to have a different marketplace for games. That and a prettier UI doesn't make it an entirely new and revolutionary beast. It's a second, perhaps better, attempt at the same thing GFWL was trying to do.

Its there to bring a unified experience between the X1 and PCs.

Just as GFWL was there to bring a unified experience between 360 and PC. The point is that it's not a new thing. It's a second attempt to do the same thing. Maybe it will be much better this time and so maybe it will work but it's not some new thing they are doing.

MS is always in the unfair position of having to choose between the two platforms. Sony and Nintendo get to happily keep games from the pc and get little flac over it. MS gets yelled at all the time becuase they have any exclusive games on the Xbox. Its usually from pc gamers that dont want any console, but you rarely hear that outcry against any other console platform.

I don't believe Sony or Nintendo try to prevent 3rd parties from releasing their games on PC. In fact I seem to recall just recently there have been some announcements about PS4 "console exclusives" coming to PC as well. Of course they don't release first party games on PC, it's not their platform. Windows IS Microsoft's platform. It's not unreasonable then to expect a Microsoft game to run on a Microsoft OS. That's an entirely different thing from expecting a Sony or Nintendo game from running on a Microsoft platform.

I dont know what the answer is. You laid it out pretty clearly. If MS made all X1 games available on the pc, you would have no reason to buy an xbox. You dont care if it kills the xbox becuase you had no interest to begin with. Unfortuantely, MS can't think of it in those terms. They have to compete against Sony and Nintendo. Who do they have to compete with on pc? Steam is not a competitor, its a service that runs on MS' platform. Heck, MS even mentioned them as part of the live event. They are building OS level features that can be used while using Steam. That's a sign that MS is more interested in growing Windows vs 'taking out' Steam.

I think you're looking at that wrong. You're right, if they make X1 games available on the PC then I have no reason to buy an Xbox. That doesn't mean NO ONE does though. I happen to build my own computer where I spend more on the GPU alone than the entire Xbox costs. I am a PC gamer first. I am not the norm. There are A LOT of people who don't have the money, time, and/or interest to build a gaming PC like I do. Those people aren't going to get rid of their Xboxes and buy gaming PCs because all the Xbox games are also available on Win10.

I think you're looking at that wrong. You're right, if they make X1 games available on the PC then I have no reason to buy an Xbox. That doesn't mean NO ONE does though. I happen to build my own computer where I spend more on the GPU alone than the entire Xbox costs. I am a PC gamer first. I am not the norm. There are A LOT of people who don't have the money, time, and/or interest to build a gaming PC like I do. Those people aren't going to get rid of their Xboxes and buy gaming PCs because all the Xbox games are also available on Win10.

 

Your elitism is showing there bro. No matter what you say, releasing xbox exclusives on PC would damage xbox sales end of story. 

  • Like 2

Where is the evidence that MS intends to fight that battle? It seems to me that MS may be trying to avoid that fight and instead focus on brining X1 gaming features over to Windows that you can use regardless of the service you are using.

The defacto voice server for Windows games is already Steam. Steam already offers achievements. Steam already has friends lists. etc. By offering another, yet incompatible version they ARE fighting a battle. Developers will have to choose one or divide their player base, possibly confuse users, and increase their dev time by supporting multiple.

I hope we actually see MS reach out to Steam, Origin, GOG, etc and allow them to be a part of the Windows Store. Its not so far fetched either. Stores within a store so to speak.

I don't see that happening. Typically offering stores within stores is EXPLICITLY prohibited by store owners. Store owners typically take like a 30% cut of the software sold through it. So a game is on Windows Store and Steam then who gets the 30%? Do they both and the software developer just gets the 40% that's left? What developer would do that, they'd just release on one or the other directly and pay the 30% to one instead of a total of 60% to two. If they split it why would Steam give up part of their 30% on games to MS or vice versa? Furthermore if they DO allow stores then EA for example could just set up an EA store that was a free Windows Store download (MS gets 30% of nothing) and then sell all their games through that, giving MS nothing on the individual games.

I would have liked to see MS actually reach out to Steam, Origin, GoG, Sony, etc. and provide an "open" voice solution, a shared "friends list", interoperable messaging, etc. That would have been something amazing but this is just another competitor (maybe a very good one.) By creating a competitor they are showing they intend to "fight that battle".

Your elitism is showing there bro. No matter what you say, releasing xbox exclusives on PC would damage xbox sales end of story.

My elitism was my point. The point is that it's a rare few crazy people (like me) who spend a ton of money building a gaming PC when compared to PC owners in general. I'd image most of those "elite" gamers don't buy consoles at all you know "PC Master race", yadda, yadda, and all that. I'm not in that crowd personally, I DO have a PS4 but the point being is that consoles offer simplicity and a bang for your buck that appeals to most people if you have exclusives or not. Maybe a few people would stop buying consoles but it's likely a VERY small percentage of the Xbox user base that would suddenly stop buying Xboxes because all the games were available on Windows 10. Just because it's available on Windows 10 doesn't make it easy to use or mean you have the system specs to run it.

If I'm so representative though and like me most people wouldn't buy an Xbox One if the games were all on PC what exactly has the exclusives gained them. I still don't have an Xbox so they didn't earn my sale by keeping games exclusive. All they've done is lost my money on any Xbox games. Maybe I'd buy Halo or Gears of War or Forza if it was available on PC. I'd say the money they made from PC gamers buying formerly exclusive Xbox games would more than offset the money they lost from people abandoning the console for PC if the games were on both.

Your elitism is showing there bro. No matter what you say, releasing xbox exclusives on PC would damage xbox sales end of story. 

 

And what's the problem with that? Both products are made by MS. MS will never get rich with the xbox. It's pocket money at the very best. What MS should aim at is make the store the most popular they can. This is where the money is. And to maximize this MS needs both PC and xbox.

 

There's no such thing as consoles anymore. Not like they used to be when Nintendo was king. The consoles are basically custom PC in a small box.

 

MS should stop to see the PC as a competitor to the xbox. It should be considered one product

And what's the problem with that? Both products are made by MS. MS will never get rich with the xbox. It's pocket money at the very best. What MS should aim at is make the store the most popular they can. This is where the money is. And to maximize this MS needs both PC and xbox.

 

There's no such thing as consoles anymore. Not like they used to be when Nintendo was king. The consoles are basically custom PC in a small box.

 

MS should stop to see the PC as a competitor to the xbox. It should be considered one product

The defacto voice server for Windows games is already Steam.

 

Heh, no, I've had people insist on anything from TS to Ventrilo and Mumble to even some who insist on Skype, NEVER have I heard anyone say or insists "you need to connect to our Steam voice chat". Steam is like one of those built in voice chats that no one actually uses, even though it's there and better integrated into the game than the option they use. 

Heh, no, I've had people insist on anything from TS to Ventrilo and Mumble to even some who insist on Skype, NEVER have I heard anyone say or insists "you need to connect to our Steam voice chat". Steam is like one of those built in voice chats that no one actually uses, even though it's there and better integrated into the game than the option they use. 

 

I didn't mean for users to pick.  Steam provides Voice Chat APIs for game developers to integrate into their games as part of their Steamworks services.  If developers don't care to integrate voice directly in their game with steam they probably aren't going to use the MS APIs either.  Sure steam also allows voice chat initiated directly from the client (outside the game itself) but that's supposed to be there for games that don't have voice chat built in and you're right that's almost never used.

 

So there are two situations here.  One, you're a developer and you want to integrate voice into your game.  Your primary distribution method is Steam.  Are you going to use the Steam API that will allow anyone using Steam on any platform steam runs on that you release your game on (WinXP, Vista, Win8.x, Win10, maybe even Linux and Mac) to communicate together or are you going to pick an API that only works with Xbox and Win10 users?  Somehow I doubt many will pick the MS API.

 

The other situation is the developer won't use ANY API and instead rely on an external program (Steam's client Voice Chat, TeamSpeak, Ventrilo, etc.) Now MAYBE gamers will choose to use the Win10/Xbox voice chat but I doubt that too because your clans and stuff probably have people that aren't using Win10 or Xbox so you'd want to stick with things that run on more platforms.  I don't see a mass exodus from TeamSpeak and Ventrilo to a MS provided voice server that only works on Windows 10 and Xbox.

 

Now maybe just about everyone will upgrade to Windows 10 and almost no gamers will be left on Windows 7 so developers will be fine with their chat not working on older windows boxes.  Maybe they also won't care about mac or linux capability since they're pretty small segments of the gaming market.  Maybe tons of future Xbox games will allow Xbox players to play together with Win10 players and so having a shared platform between the two will be a huge deal even if it's at the expense of compatibility with everything else.  I wouldn't be on it though.

And that was my point, NO ONE uses the in game voice API's for whatever reason. well for some games the reason is obvious as they often have the same limits as chat, Dead people can't speak, use TS/Vent/Mumble and problem solved...  for people who want to win this is more important than built in features like in the RB6 games where you can actually hear other people talking over voice of they're nearby, neat, but ultimately dead people talking is worth more :/  sometimes I wish games could block third party voice services, but the dedicated would just use a separate laptop for it, which many do on consoles...

 

 

So whatever API they use for in game voice coms, it's not going to be used by users. unless they drop the dead people can't talk function,then they might, but even then as you say, many use TS/Vent/Mumble for more than one game and have people not even playing or playing other games on there as well. when they're not playing competitively. At this point, adding voice coms in game is pretty much a waste of dev resources, granted for consoles you get it for free...

I'm also interested in the new dashboard they've been teasing ...

 

What what? Or do you mean the one from the W10 promo image? If so, i think that's just a mockup rather than something that's going to happen.

What what? Or do you mean the one from the W10 promo image? If so, i think that's just a mockup rather than something that's going to happen.

Yes, that's what I meant. The other interfaces on the other devices look really similar to what they're going for, so it would be nice if that's the actual interface.

I'm skeptical too, because it'd be a huge change from the current interface, but I wonder why they would show a concept to the public instead of something they're actually building? And they already showed it multiple times.

 

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Posts

    • Nice to see! Especially now with Arm64 VMs getting more popular and sometimes even cheaper than traditional x86 ones in datacenters.
    • I never said they weren’t, I said I don’t care. Do keep up…
    • TerraMaster F2-425 Pro review: a low-powered Intel NAS that ships with AI (OpenClaw) by Steven Parker It has been a while since I reviewed a TerraMaster NAS, but the company reached out to me asking if I was willing to test the F4-425 Pro, which goes on sale today. It is an upgrade on the F4-425 Plus, which I reviewed back in October 2025 What you need to know is that it basically follows the design principles of the four-bay F4-425 series, with its all-metal exterior. Here are the most important specifications: TerraMaster F4-425 Pro CPU Intel Core N350 (8x E Cores/Threads, Max burst up to 3.9 GHz) Intel Core N305 (4x E Cores/Threads, Max burst up to 3.8 GHz) TDP: 7W / 9W (Base) Graphics Intel UHD Graphics 32 EUs (1.35 GHz) Intel UHD Graphics 24 EUs (1.25 GHz) Memory 1x slot 16 GB DDR5 4800MT/s non ECC SODIMM (Max 32 GB) 1x slot 8 GB DDR5 4800MT/s non ECC SODIMM (Max 32 GB) Disk Capacity 120 TB (30 TB x 4) Supported RAID Types TRAID, TRAID +, RAID0, RAID1, RAID5, RAID 6, RAID 10 Network 2x RJ-45 5 GbE Internal storage 3x M.2 2280 NVMe Slot (PCIe 3.0 x1) Bootloader 2Gbit 256 GB NAND Flash card (MX30LF2G28AD) USB port (internal) USB Ports 1x Type-C 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) 3x Type-A 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) HDMI 1x (HDMI) Hardware Transcoding Engine H.264, H.265, MPEG-4, VC-1 Maximum resolution: 4K (4096 x 2160); Maximum FPS: 60 Size (H/W/D) 219 x 181 x 150 mm Weight 2.9 kg System Fan 150 x181 x 219 mm Power 90W, 100V - 240V AC, 50/60 Hz, Single frequency Power consumption (HDDs) 45W (4x 4TB ST4000VN008 in read/write state) 14W (4x 4TB ST4000VN008 in hibernation) Noise Level: 20.9 dB(A) Using 4 SATA HDDs/SSDs in standby mode; Test environment noise: 17.3dB(A); Test distance: 1m Warranty 2 Years OS TOS 7.0.0706 (Beta) MSRP £639.99, $699.99, €739.99 / £739.99, $799.99, €839.99 As you can see above, there are two variants of the F4-425 Pro releasing today. The lesser variant has the slightly weaker N305 CPU and iGP, and 8 GB less RAM, although it also costs $100 less than the top variant we are testing today. In addition, these new F4-425 Pros are shipped with the as-yet-unreleased TOS 7 beta. So what is TOS 7 exactly? During the device initialization, you are warned not to use it in a production environment, which we'll get into later. My contact told me that TOS 7 exits beta today, June 23. The clear difference with the F4-425 Plus is that it contains the more powerful N350 Intel CPU released in the first quarter of 2025, with support for DisplayPort 1.4, HDMI 2.1, LPDDR5 (4800), DDR5 and DDR4, and a max TDP of just 7W. It also supports AV1 decoding, as well as H.264, VP8, VP9, H.265 (8 bit), and H.265 (10 bit). The different capabilities in the Alder Lake-N (and Twin Lake) series are listed below. Processor E-cores L3-cache Turbo clock GPU GPU-clock TDP Intel N355 8 6 MB 3.9 GHz 32 EUs 1.35 GHz 9 W Intel Core 3 N350 3.9 GHz 1.35 GHz 7 W Intel Core i3-N305 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz 9 W Intel Core i3-N300 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz Intel N250 4 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz 6 W Intel Processor N200 3.7 GHz 0.75 GHz Intel N150 3.6 GHz 24 EUs 1 GHz Intel N97 1.2 GHz 12 W Intel Processor N100 3.4 GHz 0.75 GHz 6 W The CPU is part of the Alder Lake-N series that sits just below the top N355 offering, albeit with an impressive TDP (less than the N355 and N305) for the features it offers. It is designed for low- powered systems and entry-level laptops. As before, we are seeing another NAS with an acceptable, if not great, amount of RAM. It should be noted that the F4-425 Pro only has one SODIMM slot, so if you are planning to upgrade the already 16GB included in this NAS, it will have to be on one module of Single Rank DDR5. As a reminder, up until a couple of years ago, it was commonplace to only get 2 or 4GB max on a flagship Synology or QNAP home NAS. Ever since the likes of TerraMaster and more have entered the market with ample RAM sizes included in their NAS offerings, it has gone a long way in forcing the hands of the traditional makers to up their game a bit. Before we dive in, you can view the different SKUs released so far since the 2025 series launched for Home and SMB users, with the most important specifications listed along with the MSRP listed below: SKU CPU Cores Memory Link Price F2-425 Intel N5095 4 4 GB DDR4 2.5 GbE x1 $249.99 F4-425 Intel N5095 4 4 GB DDR4 2.5 GbE x1 $369.99 F2-425 Plus Intel Core N150 4 8 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $399.99 F4-425 Plus Intel Core N150 4 16 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $569.99 F4-425 Pro Intel Core N305 8 8 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $699.99 F4-425 Pro Intel Core N350 8 16 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $799.99 The F2 in the product name means two 3.5-inch HDD bays, where F4 is four 2.5-inch bays. First impressions Like with the F8 SSD Plus packaging, the F4-425 Pro is using the upgraded box materials, which certainly look better than a plain cream colored box with TERRAMASTER stamped on the sides. The box gives off a premium feel and certainly adds a positive vibe to first impressions. In the box F4-425 Pro TNAS device Power adapter LAN cable (CAT 6) Quick guide [full online guide] Limited warranty notice Screws (for HDD bays) Stickers 2x rubber feet (spares) Design As has become kind of common with TerraMaster, certainly in the last three years, the 2025 F2- and F4-series have received a makeover that really adds to the premium feel of the NAS. Gone are the plastic shells, now replaced with an aluminum outer shell, with the front and back retaining the textured black plastic we saw on the 2024 models. Some key differences from the 2024 series include placing the power button back on the front, along with the addition of a Type A USB port. It's not much bigger or heavier either; in fact, it weighs 500 grams less than the F4-424 Pro. It's slightly shorter in height and depth (length), but only by a few millimeters. The front and back do retain a similar style to the 2024 series. On the front, you just have your four bays along with LED indicators for the HDDs and power. The welcomed change is having a USB port on the front for quick access, should you need to back up a USB drive, for example. Around the back, from top to bottom, you have a reset pin hole, an HDMI port, two 5 GbE Ethernet ports, two USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) Type A ports with a Type-C port below them, and a connector for the barrel port power source. Again, there's no Kensington Security Slot present, which is a bit of a shame considering it's a data storage device. Left side Right side On the left and right of the F4-425 Plus, it is completely smooth aluminum with a TERRAMASTER logo printed on both sides. On the bottom, there are some holes to assist ventilation. Unlike with the F4-425 Plus, the rubber feet did come unstuck during the teardown, which was also an issue on the 2023 series. It seems like other customers have lodged complaints about them, as TerraMaster now includes two spare rubber feet in the box, in case any of the preinstalled ones are lost; however, this seems more like a papering over the cracks solution rather than actually fixing the issue with better quality rubber stand-offs. There are also four screws that must be removed in order to access the internals. Teardown Upon removing the four screws, you can slide the device out of its shell to reveal the three NVMe M.2 slots (PCIe 3.0 X1) and single SODIMM slot connector, which is populated with a single 16GB DDR5 4800MT/s module. I added a couple of MP44Q M.2 PCIe 4.0 SSDs (2 x 4TB) that can be availed on Amazon for $492.99 that TEAMGROUP supplied us with, along with a 250GB 970 Evo Plus that my colleague Chris White sent me by accident and let me keep a few years ago. As I have said in previous reviews, TerraMaster support staff actually encourage installing whatever you want on their devices, and happily, the USB port for the bootloader is now easily accessible should you want to use it for your own flavor of NAS OS, such as TrueNAS, Unraid, or maybe Xpenology. Yes, because TerraMaster has now switched to a 256 GB NAND Flash card (3rd photo above) for the TOS bootloader. This is also replaceable, but you can also simply add a USB bootloader, access the BIOS, and tell the F4-425 Pro to boot from that instead of the Flash card. Unlike earlier iterations of TerraMaster NAS, you don't have to tear this down any further than the four screws on the outer shell in order to be able to access and manage the memory, NVMe slots, and USB bootloader. However, if you need to access the NAND Flash card or CMOS battery, then eight more screws (four on each side) need to be removed in order to take off the rear panel with the 120mm fan, and then the motherboard can be lifted off and removed from the SATA connector PCB. There's also no risk of threading the screw holes, because the four that hold the shell in place are metal on metal, while the screws that hold the rear panel on do screw into plastic. Either way, like last time when I reviewed the F4-425 plus, I was just happier to see larger screws being used. Overall, it follows some great improvements in build quality from the 2024 series and earlier. Setup BIOS The F4-425 Pro includes an Aptio BIOS from American Megatrends [1, 2], and you can setup pretty much everything here including the boot order, which is locked to the UEFI OS, however above that choice you can enable or disable booting to the USB bootloader so this would still allow you to switch to a USB stick with an alternative bootloader and boot from it, or disable it to instead always start from the first disk with an OS installed on it. Initial Setup Setup is roughly the same as the F4-425 Plus, along with the new TOS 7 setup dialogs, so there will be no surprises here. Upon connecting to the LAN and booting up, the F4-425 Pro can be reached by navigating to http://tnas.local. If that doesn't work, you can use the local address assigned via DHCP, which you can find using the TNAS PC desktop application, which is essentially a TerraMaster NAS finder. The setup process is pretty straightforward, through a wizard, and in full below: TOS 7 Initialization As you can see, TOS 7 received a new coat of paint, and the initialization requires fewer interactions. Happily, TOS no longer decides to throw all disks into the same Storage Pool; 2.5-inch HDDs are allocated into Storage Pool 1. This is because two of the HDDs are allocated to hold system files. Previously (with TOS 5 and 6), if you pre-installed HDDs and SSDs, they were all placed into Storage Pool 1, even if you did not select the SSDs for inclusion during the onboarding. TOS 7 Setup On first boot, there is a tutorial and some steps to take to harden the TNAS (or not), which includes an immediate update from TOS 7.0.0616 to 7.0.0706, of which the changelog screenshot is also included in the above gallery. It must be noted that the Security Advisor still contains (in my opinion) a pretty major bug in that if you enable SPC and then do the required rebooting, the Security Advisor still says that SPC is disabled. TerraMaster provided the following statement about it: It is disappointing that TOS 7 has been in beta since December, and this OOBE issue is still there. Shutdown option has moved Instead of a Taskbar option to manage the NAS, all of these options have been moved to the Control Panel, initially I did not see it and my contact had to show me how to power off the F4-425 Pro. To logout, reboot or power off you can find those controls at the top right of the Control Panel. It is also possible to power off through the TNAS mobile app beta. Storage setup Above, you can see the steps I took to create the Storage Pools and Volumes. I made a second Storage Pool using TRAID on two 4TB MP44Q SSDs (which, in this instance, is similar to RAID 5), and finally, I added the 250GB 970 Evo Plus drive as Hyper Cache on Storage Pool 1 in Balanced mode. Registering If you decide not to lock down the F4-425 Pro in Security Isolation Mode (blocking all external connections), then you could set up a TNAS device ID through the Remote Access setting in the Control Panel (which must be unique). This works in combination with an online TerraMaster account. TOS 7 TNAS Online Creating a TerraMaster account and linking the device online activates the warranty when you provide proof of purchase and the serial number, but it also gives you access through the TNAS mobile app, which allows you to complete certain operationsб including powering off and restarting the NAS remotely. A TNAS mobile update is required to gain access through TOS 7, and this is provided on the TerraMaster website, as it is not yet on Google Play. The app is evolving all the time and has made leaps and bounds since I first started reviewing TerraMaster devices almost three years ago. It is not quite there yet if you are comparing the likes of Synology, which, sadly, a lot of users online do all the time. OpenClaw setup One of the main selling points of the new F4-425 Pro is the inclusion of OpenClaw, with TerraMaster claiming that it is "powered by the world's first AI-native TOS 7 OS, supporting local-first smart workflows and independent data control." However, I immediately ran into problems trying to enable OpenClaw. After waiting 20 minutes at the "Enabling" message of the OpenClaw app following installation, I decided to do some searching online and discovered that it couldn't complete the installation process due to SPC being enabled, which is something TOS 7 immediately recommends to be enabled on first boot. SPC for NAS (TOS 7) is basically the same principle as UAC in Windows; it blocks executables from being launched by non-Super Users. After reaching out to my contact about these issues, I received the following response: Anyway, this only became clear when I closed the OpenClaw app screen and clicked on the OpenClaw icon in the taskbar; that is when I saw the message about disabling SPC. I think, due to the fact that this is a requirement, this should be a prompt during the installation process, not when closing the App Market and then trying to launch OpenClaw. There's also no 'Getting started' guide for people like me who have never used OpenClaw. I tried to add an LLM and discovered the tutorial led nowhere. That's when I started looking around the official TerraMaster forums, and I found a guide that helpfully explains that you won't get anywhere with OpenClaw unless you have a paid plan, which is disappointing because I imagined there would be an option to use a local LLM as I do in SubtitleEdit with Whisper-XXL. In addition, with the marketing imagery on the official site, it says that the OpenClaw feature is "all processed 100% locally for absolute privacy." which led me to believe that I could install a local LLM, not one that required paid tokens. In any case, TerraMaster does not provide guidance for this new feature, which was also a selling point of the F4-425 Pro! My contact also provided clarification about the above points I raised with TerraMaster Since it is not in the scope of the review to add paid services, I'll leave that to the people who are more qualified with OpenClaw. F4-425 Pro Surveillance App TOS also comes with a Surveillance app, which is not installed by default; it can be found in the App Market recommended section. In addition, after installing, it doesn't drop a shortcut on the Desktop or top taskbar, but you can "Send to Desktop" from the App Market listing for the app for a quick way to open it. Adding my Reolink POE doorbell camera was painless. TerraMaster doesn't appear to have a repository of preconfigured cameras; instead, the camera must be added using ONVIF or RTSP. No mobile Surveillance app TerraMaster still doesn't have a dedicated Surveillance app, although from searching online, Surveillance can be used and managed through the TNAS mobile app. I tried this with the updated TNAS mobile app beta in combination with TOS 7 and got a message that Surveillance was "Only accessible through web browser," so I reckon this must be limited to the stable versions of TOS 6 and the mobile app. More quirks In addition, whenever I minimized the Live View window in the browser Surveillance app, the feed appeared to switch to the Low-bandwidth stream, and there was no way to get the High-quality stream back. To get the High-quality stream back, I had to close Live View and then reopen it. Benchmarking A pretty cool feature of the TOS 7 is that it allows you to install directly to the NVMe M.2 SSD. In order to do that, you would have to leave out any HDDs during initialization, and even then, the system partitions are always written to two HDDs when they are eventually added. With three NVMe slots, this also gives an interesting scenario where you could build a TRAID storage Pool for installing all your apps and Docker on, and keep the third for SSD cache on the HDD pool. Limitless options! SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 A CrystalDiskMark test on a mapped network drive from within a Windows 11 25H2 PC (image above) connected over a 5 GbE hub was well within acceptable ranges. Although the read result on SATA was a little less than with the F4-425 Plus, for some reason, while writes were generally better. SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 I also ran the NAS Performance tester, which tests the link speed performance. As you can see, it pretty much maxes out the 5GbE connection. Of course, you can also opt to bond the two 5 GbE connections for a bit more umph, but I didn't do that. TOS 7, which, as of testing, is still in Beta, comes with an App Center that has a bunch of handy programs you can install right off the bat, such as Emby, Plex, Docker, as well as in-house Backup and Surveillance solutions. As you can imagine, any media streaming services you would want to host off the F4-425 Pro will work great, thanks to the Intel Core N350 CPU and its 16 GB of DDR5 memory. Accessing from mobile is only possible if Security Isolation Mode is disabled, which can put your NAS at risk from external sources, so there was no way to access it from the TNAS Mobile app. It's also quiet. I had this sat next to my computer on my work desk for the past week, and I did wonder if the noise I was accustomed to with NAS devices would annoy me, but all I could hear was a soft whirring of the rear fan (which was a little annoying) when the disks were not actively copying or reading data. Conclusion So what have I learned? Unfortunately, this release raises a few important questions and concerns that I feel haven't been adequately addressed. What I didn't like Our variant shipped with TOS 7 beta, and it's advised not to use it in a production environment. I feel that's a bit limiting on an $800 device. The mobile app is also still in beta and does not support some of the first-party apps, like Surveillance, and it still has quite a few bugs. I am a bit confused about the OpenClaw marketing along with the F4-425 Pro. I feel like that if it's going to be a main selling point, then offer official guidance on how to get started with it. TerraMaster recommends enabling SPC, but then markets the NAS for use with OpenClaw, which requires disabling SPC to be able to use it, opening up genuine security concerns for the NAS; and that's before you get into the security concerns of OpenClaw itself. Of course, the above issues won't be a problem if you decide to install something else on it, or even go back to the stable TOS 6. I wish TerraMaster had just given TOS 7 as opt-in rather than shipping with it. TOS 7 has been available as a preview since December 2025 (so well before my last TerraMaster review), and according to a thread on Reddit where a user shared a screenshot from the TerraMaster Facebook page, it is scheduled to launch today, June 23, but there's nothing about that in the TerraMaster news blog. My contact confirmed over email that TOS 7 exits beta today. The rubber feet also deserve a mention as they continue to be a problem, with them coming unstuck the moment you shift the F4-425 Pro anywhere on your desk. What I liked What it comes down to, though, aside from what I already mentioned, you are still getting a quality, affordable device here, so recommending it will depend on the individual's use case. If you're just looking for a relatively small NAS device to manage virtual machines on, backup your files, and take care of your home theater streaming, then it is a great device that will certainly futureproof you for some time. It provides good performance, takes up little space, and is, on the whole, very quiet. Four bays afford proper redundancy using TRAID or RAID 5, and you can even expand on storage capacity by adding the 2-bay D5, or 4-bay D8 Hybrid DAS over a USB 3.2 (10Gbps) link. Considering the 2024 releases were more about power, with the likes of an Intel Core i5-1235U high-end laptop CPU under the hood, I asked my contact last time if we could expect more of the same in higher-end models and was told: It makes a lot of sense to use Intel's N350 chip inside a NAS; it is more than capable of doing what the F4-425 Pro is intended for, media streaming and backup. The only downside is still the clear lack of community and even staff support on the official forums. In the past, I have had topics go unanswered for days, or there would be generic-type "we've noted this and passed it onto our developer team" type responses. Along with the other things I mentioned, it all ends up costing it a couple of points. If you are comfortable with the command line, Docker, and setting up TrueNAS or Unraid, you'll be fine. You can do great things with this hardware. In TOS, the apps are a bit lacking, and things don't always work as expected.\ AI NAS?! What has become clear to me this year is that we are going to start seeing all kinds of "AI NAS" come to market, and while that might be good for us consumers, be diligent and research these claims. Although the F4-425 Pro technically comes with AI, it is really using a cloud service that is externally sourced off-device through the third party OpenClaw app. My colleague did review a newcomer to the NAS space earlier this year, and it includes a local AI assistant inside the Zettlab D4 NAS, and they do not even use AI in the product name, check out Chris' review here. Where to buy and a discount coupon However, it does not change the fact that this is truly a great entry-level home media-class NAS that you can buy right now. TerraMaster is having a 20% off launch discount, plus you can also still apply our unique 10% off coupon on checkout, which only works on the official website. So here is a breakdown of the pricing that is only valid on the official TerraMaster website. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $575.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $503.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £525.59 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £460.79 Use NEOWIN coupon code during checkout for 10% discount Over on Amazon US and UK, the F4-425 Pro also gets a 20% launch discount, but here, the above 10% coupon cannot be applied. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for $639.99 at Amazon US (was $799.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for $559.99 at Amazon US (was $699.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for £583.99 at Amazon UK (was £729.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for £511.99 at Amazon UK (was £639.99) As an Amazon Associate, when you purchase through links on our site, we earn from qualifying purchases.
    • I used to use Google assistant, not on the phone i have now, but about 7 years ago, then I decided it did not really do anything for me. Because i had Echo units over the house I added Alexa to the phone to control stuff and that is how it is now. Not the new Alexa+, as that is not really available in the U.K yet apart from on new units and to be honest, not interested in it. I went though the stage years ago of using voice to do text and call people, quicker to do it using my hands. I had a muck about with Siri on my Mac when I first got it, but not having a microphone permanently plugged in makes it a pain. I know it can be used by text. Siri like Apple AI is disabled on my Mac and will stay disabled.
  • Recent Achievements

    • One Month Later
      nates earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Almohandis earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • Rookie
      dorf went up a rank
      Rookie
    • First Post
      mike_rumble earned a badge
      First Post
    • Dedicated
      tuben earned a badge
      Dedicated
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      487
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      204
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      94
    4. 4
      Michael Scrip
      91
    5. 5
      neufuse
      71
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!