Are we Linux users arrogant about security?

[Art_X]

Now before you jump on me, or think this is something to start a flame war, IT'S NOT - Allow me to explain

Due to Microsoft's decision to not listen to us and collect telemetry even when we turn of said settings, I decided to try Linux again, so I put an old image I had onto my laptop updated it and away I went. Yesterday I get a call from a friend who's PC is misbehaving and he asked if I could take a look.

So off I go, took my laptop and a few other pieces as I knew it would be a virus infection as he is always getting them. Cleaned it up, but when I rebooted after some updates from MS it kept BSOD, so I took down the numbers and booted up my laptop to check them, hoping to find a fix.

This was when his GF's sister noticed my laptop and said rather loudly "Oh your one of those arrogant Linux users, like the people who use Mac's who think they cant be infected and are better than everyone else"

Now to say I was ###### at this would be an understatement - I noticed she had an iPhone 6 and said well its nice to meet another arrogant user, and pointed at her iPhone.

Now I know back in the day Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line - but is it a case that Linux users are indeed like this or is it just the typical misconception from ill-informed people?

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  Quote

Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line

When did apple actually state this?  Can you cite a source? 

[Art_X]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:13, Nik L said:

When did apple actually state this?  Can you cite a source? 

Well they did quote it as "We cant get PC virus" but most seemed to believe that they couldn't get any virus

[simonlang]

the statement to call linux users arrogant is arrogant by itself. 

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:19, ArtistX said:

Well they did quote it as "We cant get PC virus" but most seemed to believe that they couldn't get any virus

When?  Where?

[sikhwarrior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxyFVdIno6g - an advert of apple saying we don't get PC virus 

[Art_X]

http://www.wired.com/2012/06/mac_viruses/ - one of the first hits on google - as to the other part most of the people i knew back in the day often said they couldn't get any virus, not official I know.

Now do you care to answer the question I put or are you going to white knight apple some more?

[T3X4S]

I always thought the arrogance was misplaced jealousy due to slow adoption.  Like being the stepchild, or the discarded toy.  Sure there are strengths and merits, but you're not quite there, probably never will be so you take that one little strength - blow it to Herculean proportions and others see it as petty arrogance.

Linux has its strengths, and they are good strengths - but because its not in market saturation, its not in the public eye - maybe it is seen as inferior ??  I dunno - just taking a stab at it

Yes I realize it is in many servers, many devices, and IoT will have it on just about everything - but the braindead public wont know that.

 

[Son_Of_Dad]

  Quote

Apple drops claim that 'Macs don't get viruses'

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/apple-drops-claim-that-macs-dont-get-viruses-20120703-21ei4.html#ixzz3oof86Nmf
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook
 

[Veiva]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:25, Nik L said:

When?  Where?

PC vs Mac commercials are a noteworthy source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb_Q8WRL_g

As for Linux, I'm not fond of the community, all said and done. Completely anecdotal, but most interactions with Linux users ends up devolving into various intensities of: Windows is insecure and its users aren't any good; a Windows poweruser is equivalent to a Linux newbie; GPL-style open source is superior than any other form of licensing, even compared to open source projects using the BSD or MIT license; and Linux is the best example of open source contributions and contributors.

In honesty, I'm currently looking into switching from primarily Windows to FreeBSD. I find the BSD platform greatly superior from someone who uses neither Linux distributions nor any BSD systems (the BSDs are operating systems, not kernels; Ubuntu is greatly different from Gentoo which is different from Slackware which is different Fedora and all the combinations in-between, the only thing they share is the Linux kernel [and even with that, they have different patches/versions...). In turn, BSD is much more coherent and by a minimum somewhat more secure. It's also not tainted by the GPL. And, of course, my interactions with Linux users over the years.

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  Quote

Now do you care to answer the question I put or are you going to white knight apple some more?

You assume too much, I find your post interesting and valid - I simply believed that this "Now I know back in the day Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line"  was a myth.  The point that they make in that video is the NUMBER of viruses, which is true - just well worded way of "suggesting" they are impervious without stating it - sneaky.  And "We don't get PC viruses" is true, they have their own set.  Again it's a numbers game and well worded marketing crud.

The difference with Linux?  Same thing really except for well worded marketing, the message tends to come from tecchies - a (probably) vocal minority of whom tend to show a real superiority complex.

[Art_X]

Sorry Nik, bit ill atm, so am short tempered - I apologise - must be a virus

[+Nik Louch Subscriber²]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:46, ArtistX said:

Sorry Nik, bit ill atm, so am short tempered - I apologise - must be a virus

It's cool - can see where u were headed, I use apple gear a lot, but their marketing is often sneaky.

[President Devil]

YES!

[The Evil Overlord]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:10, ArtistX said:

Now before you jump on me, or think this is something to start a flame war, IT'S NOT - Allow me to explain

Due to Microsoft's decision to not listen to us and collect telemetry even when we turn of said settings, I decided to try Linux again, so I put an old image I had onto my laptop updated it and away I went. Yesterday I get a call from a friend who's PC is misbehaving and he asked if I could take a look.

So off I go, took my laptop and a few other pieces as I knew it would be a virus infection as he is always getting them. Cleaned it up, but when I rebooted after some updates from MS it kept BSOD, so I took down the numbers and booted up my laptop to check them, hoping to find a fix.

This was when his GF's sister noticed my laptop and said rather loudly "Oh your one of those arrogant Linux users, like the people who use Mac's who think they cant be infected and are better than everyone else"

Now to say I was ###### at this would be an understatement - I noticed she had an iPhone 6 and said well its nice to meet another arrogant user, and pointed at her iPhone.

Now I know back in the day Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line - but is it a case that Linux users are indeed like this or is it just the typical misconception from ill-informed people?

You showed more patience than I would have in the same circumstance, I would have torn into her for her arrogance, and her ignorance, your choice in os should be no one else's concern,
Or I would have not fixed the laptop and told them both to find a 'less arrogant' friend to help

 

edit
Any (windows)* computer can be made a bit more secure in the use a decent firewall/antivirus software, just making this clear as I don't really care what os someone uses, and options are available for security

(*stated windows, as it's the most results that came back from google )

Edited October 17, 2015 by Aheer.R.S.
a little clarification

[Kelxin]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:43, Nik L said:

You assume too much, I find your post interesting and valid - I simply believed that this "Now I know back in the day Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line"  was a myth.  The point that they make in that video is the NUMBER of viruses, which is true - just well worded way of "suggesting" they are impervious without stating it - sneaky.  And "We don't get PC viruses" is true, they have their own set.  Again it's a numbers game and well worded marketing crud.

The difference with Linux?  Same thing really except for well worded marketing, the message tends to come from tecchies - a (probably) vocal minority of whom tend to show a real superiority complex.

When OS X first launched, I actually had well over a dozen Apple store workers and managers explicitly say that Mac's cannot and will not ever get a virus and hear them tell shoppers that on a regular basis.  Back in the day I made a proof of concept Java virus (when OS X still ran Java by default) and they denied that my proof of concept code even existed.   So much coolaid and Apple colored glasses getting passed around I didn't even know what to do.

[The Evil Overlord]

  On 17/10/2015 at 10:36, Kelxin said:

 

When OS X first launched, I actually had well over a dozen Apple store workers and managers explicitly say that Mac's cannot and will not ever get a virus and hear them tell shoppers that on a regular basis.  Back in the day I made a proof of concept Java virus (when OS X still ran Java by default) and they denied that my proof of concept code even existed.   So much coolaid and Apple colored glasses getting passed around I didn't even know what to do.

Another great comment, the company agenda,  the 'Product X is far superior than all' push
I hate this, which is why I stopped using the giant tech superstores <example, PC World> , and come here to look for advice, least here no one's on a sales agenda, if one product will suit me better, then that is what I'll be told.

[Art_X]

  On 17/10/2015 at 10:27, Aheer.R.S. said:

You showed more patience than I would have in the same circumstance, I would have torn into her for her arrogance, and her ignorance, your choice in os should be no one else's concern,Or I would have not fixed the laptop and told them both to find a 'less arrogant' friend to help

Wasn't her I was doing it for, if it had been and she had said it i would have up and walked out, but my friend told her to shut up and apologised, told him no need and she was a pleb

Even he saw the irony, I was there fixing his Windows PC 

[Kelxin]

Honestly, I think the biggest difference currently between Windows, *nix variants and OS X (which is a *nix variant derived from FreeBSD), Windows is just much easier to track down virus's and remove them.  *nix and OS X I've seen some REALLY crazy stuff including kext's being injected with code, UEFI modifications, and even GPU memory being hot patched and injected with code to run on the video card......   Lately I've seen some odd behavior on Thunderbolt enabled Mac's which is causing me to be suspicious but I haven't completely confirmed my initial diagnostics yet (would require more time than I have or care to put into it).

[simplezz]

  On 17/10/2015 at 09:10, ArtistX said:

Due to Microsoft's decision to not listen to us and collect telemetry even when we turn of said settings

Personally I hate this trend of trying to grab our data surreptitiously. Even Mozilla is getting in on the act. It's a disgrace and threatens the privacy of users. Now, if it was opt-in only, I could accept that. But as it stands, far too many of these telemetry features (that's a joke right?) are designed for the sole purpose of collecting as much data as possible.

Microsoft was already known to be sending a lot of data back to its servers. One of the many reasons why I abandoned it as my main OS. Windows 10 however has gone full-throttle big-brother and I want nothing to do with it.

  Quote

This was when his GF's sister noticed my laptop and said rather loudly "Oh your one of those arrogant Linux users, like the people who use Mac's who think they cant be infected and are better than everyone else"

Now to say I was ###### at this would be an understatement - I noticed she had an iPhone 6 and said well its nice to meet another arrogant user, and pointed at her iPhone.

Now I know back in the day Apple prided itself on the "we cant get viruses" line - but is it a case that Linux users are indeed like this or is it just the typical misconception from ill-informed people?

 Technically, any OS can get a virus, rootkit, malware, etc. The real difference lies in the risk. GNU/Linux and OS X have far less malware written for them. So simply in terms of numbers, you're statistically less likely to get infected. And we're talking about small single digits in the case of OS X. GNU/Linux is in the fractions. Is it possible? Yes, but extremely unlikely unless you encounter some custom malware designed to target your distro/configuration. It's exceedingly difficult to target GNU/Linux for a number of reasons:

• Peer reviewed and curated repositories are the main source of software. It's manifest that such OS' are highly resilient to the spread of malware. Take Google's Android for example, oft the focus for mobile malware. While most of the mobile malware might be written for Android, only a small percentage of Playstore based devices ever encounter them. Again in the percentile fractions. The problems occur when you go outside of the curated sources. That's why Windows is such a malware magnet. Most of its users still get their software directly from the internet.
• Heterogeneity. The variety in GNU/Linux configurations makes it challenging to target a single environment. The installed software is the big unknown. Juxtapose that with Windows, a very homogeneous environment, where it's easy to make assumptions about what it's running and where single attack vectors work broadly. This is the reason I'm a little concerned about systemd. Although it's a great init system, by the same token, its popularity could render it a potential vector in the future.
• There are other reasons as well, such as file system based permissions, and a generally superior security model. But those are a given in Linux.

 I myself have never even encountered a single piece of malware on GNU/Linux in the long time I've been using it. Windows on the other hand, I see it all the time. Encounter rates could be higher than 50% in some areas. That's a terrifying thought and the main reason I advocate doing banking and sensitive work on GNU/Linux. It's just not worth the risk.

[simplezz]

  On 17/10/2015 at 11:08, Kelxin said:

Honestly, I think the biggest difference currently between Windows, *nix variants and OS X (which is a *nix variant derived from FreeBSD), Windows is just much easier to track down virus's and remove them.

Really? Some rootkits I've seen on Windows are all but impossible to remove without completely wiping and reinstalling.

[Art_X]

I know it's highly unlikely to get a virus on Linux or *nix, you would have to be either be very unlucky (and lately I have been very unlucky ), or stupid and run as root, 

For me, I think its the fact that I have always had a firewall or some AV on my system and I feel kind of anxious about the icons not being there, that and I cant get used to GIMP which is making it harder for me to do some artwork

[simonlang]

  On 17/10/2015 at 17:13, ArtistX said:

 

For me, I think its the fact that I have always had a firewall or some AV on my system and I feel kind of anxious about the icons not being there, 

i think this is a big deal for people new on linux systems. when i decided to made the switch and read about it before i could not believe that an AV or firewall were not needed on linux and in many beginner forums you still have users asking for best AV for linux. 

[TPreston]

If you flip the middle finger at the core principles of computer security as seen above then yes you are arrogant and have learned nothing from the past.

[Art_X]

Please show me where I have flipped the finger at the core principles - if you mean where I say I have been very unlucky lately that has nothing to do with computers