RAMDISK - How large to use it as boot

By T3X4S
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Grand Master

T3X4S

Posted
Posted

I have a problem.  When I get bored with my computer - I want to change it.

I just built this monster in December.  My boot drive is the 500GB Samsung 950 Pro

I want to know how large of a RAMDISK do I need to put WIndows 10 on it.

I dont know if you have to config for pagefiles and such , how large a plain jane win 10 image takes, etc.

I really just want to see if it makes a difference, therefore is it worth it.

It may not (probably not) be a permanent situation.  I am planning on backing up everything, doing it, then... probably going back to the way it was - I just dont know how much RAM and what prog to use to do it.

My mobo has RAMDISK built in - but only allows for 4GB, so I would have to use a paid solution - but they're cheap - so that isnt an issue.


Thanks


(I get like this when there isnt a game out that I want to play, or if the hardware in the computer doesnt make me all warm and fuzzy anymore)   I do things like this to keep from constantly throwing money at a money pit.

 

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Grand Master

Xahid

Posted
Posted (edited)

you can't put your OS on RamDisk.

its because, RamdDisk is software not OS layer, it works on top of OS.

But even if you succeed by some tweaks to Install OS on RamDisk, it still required caching on Disk, otherwise everything get lost when PC turn off.

IMO, not a worthy try.

Grand Master

T3X4S

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 07:42, Xahid said:

you can't put your OS on RamDisk.

its because, RamdDisk is software not OS layer, it works on top of OS.

But even if you succeed by some tweaks to Install OS on RamDisk, it still required caching on Disk, otherwise everything get lost when PC turn off.

IMO, not a worthy try.

Expand  

Yeah - did some looking - not gonna happen.  Too much tweaking

Thanks

(Y)

 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted

You didn't mention how much RAM you have but if you have a lot, Windows is already doing it for you behind the scenes.

 

The Samsung 950 Pro is insane fast so beating that becomes a non-trivial task.

 

Windows 10 will use an agressive percentage of RAM to cache stuff which makes a RAM disk to have questionable value.

 

Everything will take a certain amount of time even if you had infinite speed I/O and nothing obvious comes to mind in this situation. I suspect that two Samsung 950 Pros in RAID-0 will yield minimal real world gains. To get an order of magnitude past that would need battery backed RAM hardware emulating a M.2

 

Another option might be a hardware based controller like LSI feeding a large SATA SSD Array.

 

A giant water cooler to double your CPU speed might be the only option left to get a thrill ride...

 

  • Jim K and T3X4S
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Grand Master

Torolol

Posted
Posted

the only thing that I consider proper use of RAMDISK boot is when it was used by BOOT from LAN terminal.

On (re-)boot the terminal will fetch OS partition from server using the LAN and put that on firmwired RAM disk.

Its actually ideal for public terminal and its also cut some initial cost that usually associated with internal HDD/SSD storages.

But i heard something like that before current secureboot thingy, is such thing even compliant with secureboot scheme?

Enthusiast

ITOps

Posted
Posted

If your looking for a rush, I would recommend trying out PCIe based SSDs.  You can pick up a Samsung PCIe SSD and get 1600MB/1350MB (1.6GB/1.35GB or 12,800Mb/10,800Mb) Read/Write  with PCI Express 2 and 2150MB/1550MB (2.15GB/1.55GB or 17200Mb/12400Mb) Read/Write with PCI Express 3 with just one, if you add more...

Grand Master

Jim K Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted

Good ol' RAMDisk drives.  Remember seeing these a long time ago ... and thinking "wow" ... and then my jaw dropped when I saw the price.

 

 

hyperdrive-4.jpg

 

I think these were sold in the mid 2000's.  The DRAM would still be powered when the PC was turned off so not to lose any data.  Still severely limited by the interface though...with the primary advantage of practically having zero access/seek time.  It had various models ... I believe 8, 16 and 32GB.  The 8GB was ~$2500 and the 32GB costing ~$3800 ... without memory modules ... which back then was obviously more expensive.  I think you could get 32GB memory for around $4000'ish.  In other words ... buying the top of the line Hyperdrive 4 topped out with 32GB of memory would cost almost $8000.  You can now get a 32GB SSD, which has better performance for around 40 bucks.  Man...have times changed.

 

 

Gigabyte had a similar product...though it was PCI and only supported 4GB...but was "only" a couple hundred bucks without memory as well.

 

1712.jpg

 

Anyway...I haven't seen any products similar to these recently.  SSD's (especially the newer NVMe) have made them ... for the most part ... impractical.  

  • goretsky and Circaflex
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Grand Master

T3X4S

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 08:19, Ravensky said:

Get another 950 500Gb and RAID 0 them... so fast!!!

Expand  

Only have 1 M.2 slot on mobo

 

  On 16/04/2016 at 14:00, ITOps said:

If your looking for a rush, I would recommend trying out PCIe based SSDs.  You can pick up a Samsung PCIe SSD and get 1600MB/1350MB (1.6GB/1.35GB or 12,800Mb/10,800Mb) Read/Write  with PCI Express 2 and 2150MB/1550MB (2.15GB/1.55GB or 17200Mb/12400Mb) Read/Write with PCI Express 3 with just one, if you add more...

Expand  

Right now - I dont see any faster than my 950 Pro in real world terms - unless you go for something extravagant and server-based.

Mentor

Ravensky

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 12:41, DevTech said:

You didn't mention how much RAM you have but if you have a lot, Windows is already doing it for you behind the scenes.

 

The Samsung 950 Pro is insane fast so beating that becomes a non-trivial task.

 

Windows 10 will use an agressive percentage of RAM to cache stuff which makes a RAM disk to have questionable value.

 

Everything will take a certain amount of time even if you had infinite speed I/O and nothing obvious comes to mind in this situation. I suspect that two Samsung 950 Pros in RAID-0 will yield minimal real world gains. To get an order of magnitude past that would need battery backed RAM hardware emulating a M.2

 

Another option might be a hardware based controller like LSI feeding a large SATA SSD Array.

 

A giant water cooler to double your CPU speed might be the only option left to get a thrill ride...

 

Expand  

I am running two 950's and in RAID-0 and it is a LOT faster than one...

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 15:58, Ravensky said:

I am running two 950's and in RAID-0 and it is a LOT faster than one...

Expand  

Obviously it would benchmark faster, but I was very skeptical that day to day usage would be impacted much simply because a single 950 is so fast.

 

So what stuff do you find perceptually much different with two 950's over a single 950?

 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 15:03, T3X4S said:

Only have 1 M.2 slot on mobo

 

Right now - I dont see any faster than my 950 Pro in real world terms - unless you go for something extravagant and server-based.

Expand  

Yeah, I scanned through the specs of all the PCIe cards on Newegg and couldn't see anything faster than a 950. In fact most of them were slower or similar.

 

I suppose if Ravensky can provide detail on his dual-950 experience, you could consider a dual PCIe card addition if slots available.

 

Unfortunately anything you could do is outside the "best bang for the buck" territory.

 

If you have a lot of RAM there are registry settings to muck with how Windows manages the RAM cache and also turn off paging file (which screws up bsod dumps) or move page file to that mobo 4 gig ram disk you mentioned.

 

Giant water radiator keeps coming back into my head...

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 14:47, adrynalyne said:

Or get one PCIe SSD and be faster. 

Expand  

Or not.

 

I so so so much would like to have a 950.

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147467

 

It is essentially a PCIe SSD in just a different form factor.

 

Max Sequential Read

Up to 2500 MBps

Max Sequential Write

Up to 1500 MBps

4KB Random Read

Up to 300,000 IOPS (4KB, QD32)
Up to 12,000 IOPS (4KB, QD1)

4KB Random Write

Up to 110,000 IOPS (4KB, QD32)
Up to 43,000 IOPS (4KB, QD1)

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Property&Subcategory=636&N=100011693%20600521290%20600038471%20600038466%20600038467%20600537559%20600038468&IsNodeId=1&IsPowerSearch=1cm_sp=CAT-SSD_3-_-VisNav-_-Add-In-Card

 

Nothing there seems faster

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820228114

 

That one has PCIe x 8 but since the flash RAM is a bit slower is probably pointless.

 

Some sort of PCIe x 8 using enterprise SLC Flash RAM might be faster if such a thing exists...

 

Mentor

Ravensky

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 16/04/2016 at 20:23, DevTech said:

Obviously it would benchmark faster, but I was very skeptical that day to day usage would be impacted much simply because a single 950 is so fast.

 

So what stuff do you find perceptually much different with two 950's over a single 950?

 

Expand  

saving large files, game loading, boot times, all the heavy stuff is WAY faster...I also edit LARGE files in Photoshop and that kind of stuff, its night and day for that kind of application...

Grand Master

adrynalyne

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 20:45, DevTech said:

Or not.

 

I so so so much would like to have a 950.

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820147467

 

It is essentially a PCIe SSD in just a different form factor.

 

Max Sequential Read

Up to 2500 MBps

Max Sequential Write

Up to 1500 MBps

4KB Random Read

Up to 300,000 IOPS (4KB, QD32)
Up to 12,000 IOPS (4KB, QD1)

4KB Random Write

Up to 110,000 IOPS (4KB, QD32)
Up to 43,000 IOPS (4KB, QD1)

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=Property&Subcategory=636&N=100011693%20600521290%20600038471%20600038466%20600038467%20600537559%20600038468&IsNodeId=1&IsPowerSearch=1cm_sp=CAT-SSD_3-_-VisNav-_-Add-In-Card

 

Nothing there seems faster

 

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820228114

 

That one has PCIe x 8 but since the flash RAM is a bit slower is probably pointless.

 

Some sort of PCIe x 8 using enterprise SLC Flash RAM might be faster if such a thing exists...

 

Expand  

I keep forgetting the 950 Pro is PCIe. 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 21:53, Ravensky said:

saving large files, game loading, boot times, all the heavy stuff is WAY faster...I also edit LARGE files in Photoshop and that kind of stuff, its night and day for that kind of application...

Expand  

did you actualy do all of those things on a single 950 Pro? just want to confirm that for the record since that description you have written would also seem to be describing a single 950 pro compared to anything else.

 

So, you seem to be implying the followinf progression:

 

1. 10,000 rpm hard drive - nice improvement over any hard drive

 

2. Current gen SATA SSD such as Samsung 850 - giant improvement over 10,000 rpm hard drive

 

3. M.2 Samsung 950 Pro - giant improvement over Samsung 850

 

4. Two M.2 Samsung 950 Pro in RAID 0 - giant improvement over single Samsung 950 Pro

 

Grand Master

adrynalyne

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 16/04/2016 at 22:39, DevTech said:

did you actualy do all of those things on a single 950 Pro? just want to confirm that for the record since that description you have written would also seem to be describing a single 950 pro compared to anything else.

 

So, you seem to be implying the followinf progression:

 

1. 10,000 rpm hard drive - nice improvement over any hard drive

 

2. Current gen SATA SSD such as Samsung 850 - giant improvement over 10,000 rpm hard drive

 

3. M.2 Samsung 950 Pro - giant improvement over Samsung 850

 

4. Two M.2 Samsung 950 Pro in RAID 0 - giant improvement over single Samsung 950 Pro

 

Expand  

Why do you doubt him? I would do those things. In fact, I have entire source code repos  running over 50GB in size on my SSD. I also have several databases running locally from it as well. I can always use more throughput. 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 16/04/2016 at 22:53, adrynalyne said:

Why do you doubt him? I would do those things. In fact, I have entire source code repos  running over 50GB in size on my SSD. I also have several databases running locally from it as well. I can always use more throughput. 

Expand  

Because a single 950 Pro is so fast. I am not doubting him, but I want to make sure I understand what he has communicated.

 

In RAID-0,  two 950 Pros would be 5,000 MBytes Read and 3,000 MBytes write which has the potential to challenge various software systems that were not tested in such a configuration.

 

Like the X-Files movie "I Want to Believe" and so in a case of a single source of anecdotal evidence, more detail helps a lot.

 

Also, two M.2 slots are practical for a laptop which seems rather exciting with two 950 Pros...

Mentor

Ravensky

Posted
Posted
  On 16/04/2016 at 22:39, DevTech said:

did you actualy do all of those things on a single 950 Pro? just want to confirm that for the record since that description you have written would also seem to be describing a single 950 pro compared to anything else.

 

So, you seem to be implying the followinf progression:

 

1. 10,000 rpm hard drive - nice improvement over any hard drive

 

2. Current gen SATA SSD such as Samsung 850 - giant improvement over 10,000 rpm hard drive

 

3. M.2 Samsung 950 Pro - giant improvement over Samsung 850

 

4. Two M.2 Samsung 950 Pro in RAID 0 - giant improvement over single Samsung 950 Pro

 

Expand  

Yes actually I have tested both situations, 950 pro single and 2 in RAID 0, and RAID 0 is MUCH faster...I am not going to say it again =)

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
  On 17/04/2016 at 00:15, Ravensky said:

Yes actually I have tested both situations, 950 pro single and 2 in RAID 0, and RAID 0 is MUCH faster...I am not going to say it again =)

Expand  

Thanks for the update.

 

But now I am stuck in the movie "Exorcist" where "The Power of Speed Compels Thee"

 

Your experience compels me to somehow find an extra $1,000 from somewhere...

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