The Windows Enthusiast vs Everyone else.

By +Warwagon
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Grand Master

Noir Angel

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, DevTech said:

The latest .NET Framework is included with Windows 10 and auto updates with Windows Update. Same with C++ redist.

 

It should be this simple:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/

 

Sometimes it becomes this:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/target-dotnet-platforms.html

 

 

It is not Microsoft's fault if developers of software make dependencies on specific versions of either package, but it can easily happen when the pressures of actually shipping software forces a "temporary" version specific code. And then software hits EOL and it's cheaper to include an old redist than update the code. Etc.

 

Your frustration is actually a "Good Thing (TM)" since it is a testament to the richness and diversity and longevity of the Windows Ecosystem. It is mind blowing amazing that all this stuff runs so well on so many computers for so long a time in a fast changing tech world.

 

For .NET, installing 3.5 and 4.6.x covers 99%

 

For C++ redist, the developer is suposed to include it, but the latest security update of the redist for 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 covers most of the scenarios.

 

If you actually run into this issue a lot, then you are installing a vast array of software and getting full advantage of the WIndows Ecosystem!

 

(I think people on MDL have some nice bundle packages of all the redist installs if you want to pre-pollute a fresh Windows install with years of accumulated crustyness/garbage on the first day.)

 

For the future, the Windows 10 UWP App deployment has an option to include all the dependencies in the App package much like a "portable" install would work but it remains to be seen if developers will see an advantage to bloating up their code like that.

TBF, I personally tend to find that it's mostly older games that load the C++ redist packages, I rarely see other Win32 software do it. The use of targeted APIs in games doesn't really bother me that much if it allows the devs to incorporate more featured.

Grand Master

+Warwagon MVC

Posted
  • Author
  • MVC
Posted
1 hour ago, Gary7 said:

Why do you need 9 machines?? I like Windows 10 and have used every release of Windows along with Linux for a tad but 9 Machines,,:wacko:

I was counting machines and laptops I don't always use but have and have windows 10 on .. looks like I forgot some too.

 

4 monitor desktop

Couch computer (3 monitor Brix Pro setup)

Computer next to tv ( not on most of the time)

Computer in the theater (yep, it's an actual theater!)

Mac Book Pro

Server

Core 2 Duo Lenovo Laptop

i7 samsung laptop

i5 laptop

Core 2 duo HP lapop

Another HP laptop

Quickbooks Laptop

All in one system on the kitchen table

iMac i7 27 inch ..(parents have it at their house)

Intel Nuc behind my TV, runs my VNC viewer down to my server so I can see my security cam above my tv

Pipo X9 dual boots 10 and Android.

1 Acer w500 Tablet (that has windows 8 on that) .. it's my toilet tablet.

 

------------------------

 

All that being said the computers that always get used.

 

Nuc behind my TV

Couch Computer

Server

and 4 monitor Desktop.

Toilet Tablet

Grand Master

Draconian Guppy

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, warwagon said:

A person recently pointed out a word Paul Thurrott used to describe everyone who is loves to run and install the latest and greatest version windows on their machine or on their test machine. They love to install the new build of Windows 10 Anniversary addition (or a new version of Windows) he calls them “Windows Enthusiasts”.

 

Windows Enthusiasts are a good portion of users on this site. So who isn’t a Windows Enthusiast? Everyone else.

 

It’s an important distinction to make. When people say, “People should cash in on the Windows 10 upgrade… It’s Free!!!!!!  it’s much better than windows 7 INSTALL IT!!!!!!!!!! IT'S AWESOME!!!!!!!”.

 

They say this because for them they love to install latest and greatest and want to see everyone do the same. (Sure some people have to install it  because they need to program for or test against it while developing applications)

 

I Personally I have windows 10 running on All but 2 of my 9 machines.

 

Then again, I’m an Enthusiasts, who, because I do computer repair have to be running the latest and greatest so I can help people with their machines.

 

But my mom, my Dad, my sister, my friends and every non Enthusiast I know, really doesn’t care. Now this isn’t to say all of them aren’t going to install windows 10 on purpose or by accident and not love it. Some might some won't.

 

But they might also like what they have and take stability and “it just works” over the latest and greatest.

 

So just remember while you love to dive into the latest and greatest you are the minority.

 

FTFY.

 

Yup, hence why the coined term "average joe" is the best description IMO. the majority of phone/computer/etc are non tech-savy users PERIOD.

Grand Master

Draconian Guppy

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, DevTech said:

The latest .NET Framework is included with Windows 10 and auto updates with Windows Update. Same with C++ redist.

 

It should be this simple:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/

 

Sometimes it becomes this:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/target-dotnet-platforms.html

 

 

It is not Microsoft's fault if developers of software make dependencies on specific versions of either package, but it can easily happen when the pressures of actually shipping software forces a "temporary" version specific code. And then software hits EOL and it's cheaper to include an old redist than update the code. Etc.

 

Your frustration is actually a "Good Thing (TM)" since it is a testament to the richness and diversity and longevity of the Windows Ecosystem. It is mind blowing amazing that all this stuff runs so well on so many computers for so long a time in a fast changing tech world.

 

For .NET, installing 3.5 and 4.6.x covers 99%

 

For C++ redist, the developer is suposed to include it, but the latest security update of the redist for 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 covers most of the scenarios.

 

If you actually run into this issue a lot, then you are installing a vast array of software and getting full advantage of the WIndows Ecosystem!

 

(I think people on MDL have some nice bundle packages of all the redist installs if you want to pre-pollute a fresh Windows install with years of accumulated crustyness/garbage on the first day.)

 

For the future, the Windows 10 UWP App deployment has an option to include all the dependencies in the App package much like a "portable" install would work but it remains to be seen if developers will see an advantage to bloating up their code like that.

 

 

 

but why cant 4.6 include  everything in 3.5 ? Thats what my average Joe mind doesnt understand. To me, it would be like having opera 11, 10, 9,8  Just to run opera 12

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Draconian Guppy said:

but why cant 4.6 include  everything in 3.5 ? Thats what my average Joe mind doesnt understand. To me, it would be like having opera 11, 10, 9,8  Just to run opera 12

4.6 is the only version you should need and it is included with Windows 10.

 

If some application refuses to run with 4.x then it might have a hard coded version embedded in it for no reason at all or they were too cheap to update some third party control embedded in the code. In cases like this, installing 3.5 often makes the problem go away but it is not Microsoft's fault. In some cases even earlier versions of .NET need to be installed for old enterprise apps where lazy developers in large companies have mastered the art of filling out the right form to explain why absolutely nothing can ever get updated.

  • Draconian Guppy
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Grand Master

adrynalyne

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DevTech said:

4.6 is the only version you should need and it is included with Windows 10.

 

If some application refuses to run with 4.x then it might have a hard coded version embedded in it for no reason at all or they were too cheap to update some third party control embedded in the code. In cases like this, installing 3.5 often makes the problem go away but it is not Microsoft's fault. In some cases even earlier versions of .NET need to be installed for old enterprise apps where lazy developers in large companies have mastered the art of filling out the right form to explain why absolutely nothing can ever get updated.

Mm, no.  I have a client's software I maintain that uses 3.5. Any version of SQL Server prior to 2016 requires 3.5 too. 

Edited by adrynalyne
Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
On 6/4/2016 at 3:17 AM, adrynalyne said:

Mm, no.  I have a client's software I maintain that uses 3.5. Any version of SQL Server prior to 2016 requires 3.5 too. 

I think that's my point that most older software is covered by 3.5 and that by definition whoever made that software has not bothered to update it.

 

SQL Server is a bit of an odd case since it embeds a copy of the .NET runtime inside of SQL Server so you can use C# for your Stored Procedures instead of SQL on the idea that a modern programming language would be more maintainable (and expressive) but I don't think there was a lot of uptake on that idea.

 

Grand Master

+Anarkii Subscriber²

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Posted
On 04/06/2016 at 5:12 AM, Draconian Guppy said:

Somewhat unrelated. I HATE WITH ALL MY GUTS having to install 10 .net frameworks and 10 c++ redestributable 11.111.111  then 11.111.111.0.1, How hard is it for then to have an incluse package ? 

Mind you I know nothing about frameworks and C++ so be kind :p

100% agree. Would much rather have a all inclusive .Net Framework and C++ Distrubutable files, even have them built into Windows itself since we cant use it really without ether. 

  • UnclePritchard
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Grand Master

cork1958

Posted
Posted
On 6/3/2016 at 5:17 PM, Gary7 said:

Why do you need 9 machines?? I like Windows 10 and have used every release of Windows along with Linux for a tad but 9 Machines,,:wacko:

Yes, it's very easy to accumulate machine as I have over the course of years. Currently have 4 desktops and 4 laptops. The desktops are starting to get along in years, but still run Windows 7 Ultimate just fine. Laptops are a little newer but still have Windows 7 Ultimate also. Actually, those are slightly misleading statements as I have 2 desktops with Windows and 2 with Linux and on the laptops I only have 1 running Windows.

 

As far as being an enthusiast, I would say I used to be but with MS's latest 2 OS's (3 if you want to split Windows 8/8.1) none of which I can stand, I gave up on Windows.  Also, as far as being an enthusiast, I'm wondering if that's just a slightly more polite way of saying a fanboy?

 

 

Proficient

UnclePritchard

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Anarkii said:

100% agree. Would much rather have a all inclusive .Net Framework and C++ Distrubutable files, even have them built into Windows itself since we cant use it really without ether. 

just like DirectX...

Grand Master

vcfan

Posted
Posted
On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:08 PM, jjkusaf said:

So...here is a question ... and forgive me if it sounds ignorant.  I'm not a programmer, though I've been working on an Android app for (well it seems) forever.  Aside from this little Android app and some old school HTML...the most I've done is: 
10 Print "Hello"

20 End

 

Anyway, so you pointed out that UWP Apps will include "all" dependencies in the package.  Now, would I be wrong in saying that this could cause increase in program sizes and potentially security concerns?  

 

For example...two separate UWP apps require some .NET 4.6 dependency.  The user has .NET 4.6 installed the "traditional" way.  Now, with the UWP App ... are you saying that in addition to the traditional .NET 4.6 install ... that the UWP will include their own .NET 4.6 dependencies ... instead of utilizing the ones already on the machine...thus increasing some "bloat"?  Couldn't this potentially cause security issues as well?  Say that a severe exploit was discovered in 4.6, Microsoft patches it ... but wouldn't it be up to the individual developer to ensure their UWP Apps gets patched with their own .NET 4.6 dependencies?  So instead of Microsoft patching the exploit rendering your w32 programs "good to go" ... you also have to wait for the developers to release the patch for their Apps ... until then they are vulnerable to whatever .NET exploit was uncovered and already patched by MS?  I understand that UWP is sandboxed ... but just pretend the exploit causes some kind of personal data leakage and not system compromise.  

 

Just curious and sorry if it doesn't make sense.  Just trying to get a better idea of how these included dependencies work from a security + size standpoint.

 

 

Regarding the topic.  I vote@vcfanas the Windows Enthusiast for May 2016.  Got Windows '95 running on an XBox. :)

 

 

they dont use the desktop .net framework, instead they are compiled to native code, and depend on a small .net native runtime library(ex:contains the garbage collector) in the ProgramFiles\WindowsApps folder. there is only one copy of each version of this native runtime library, and your app manifest declares which version it needs. the windows store takes care of installing missing dependencies and versions, and if youre sharing an app outside the store, you can include this library appx in your package so it will also install it to the system with your app.

 

and thanks for the vote bud, heh

Grand Master

+Warwagon MVC

Posted
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Posted

Had a customer bring me a computer today. She told me that she's always been hitting the X to close windows 10 asking to upgrade. Well finally Windows 10 did the automatic upgrade for her, then she went to roll it back to windows 7 and the process was borked. I looked the hard drive and everything is gone all of her data. (no windows.old folder nothing... only one profile folder called default and that was empty)

 

So now i'm currently in the process of trying to undelete all of her photos of which she of course has no backups of. She's not exactly loving Microsoft right about now.

 

There are then those who do it to themselves.

 

I was reading some guy trash talking windows 10 auto installing itself. He walked in the room and windows 10 was installing .... what did he do? Yanked the power cord out of the wall :laugh: Then he talked about how he had to reinstall windows 7.

 

He asked "Imagine what would have happened if I hadn't walked in the room when I did"

 

my responce ...."you wouldn't have yanked the power cord out of the wall during installation and could have rolled back to what you had before without having to reinstall ":D

  • 2 weeks later...
Grand Master

cooky560 Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
On 03/06/2016 at 9:20 PM, DevTech said:

The latest .NET Framework is included with Windows 10 and auto updates with Windows Update. Same with C++ redist.

 

It should be this simple:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/

 

Sometimes it becomes this:

 

http://getdotnet.azurewebsites.net/target-dotnet-platforms.html

 

 

It is not Microsoft's fault if developers of software make dependencies on specific versions of either package, but it can easily happen when the pressures of actually shipping software forces a "temporary" version specific code. And then software hits EOL and it's cheaper to include an old redist than update the code. Etc.

 

Your frustration is actually a "Good Thing (TM)" since it is a testament to the richness and diversity and longevity of the Windows Ecosystem. It is mind blowing amazing that all this stuff runs so well on so many computers for so long a time in a fast changing tech world.

 

For .NET, installing 3.5 and 4.6.x covers 99%

 

For C++ redist, the developer is suposed to include it, but the latest security update of the redist for 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2015 covers most of the scenarios.

 

If you actually run into this issue a lot, then you are installing a vast array of software and getting full advantage of the WIndows Ecosystem!

 

(I think people on MDL have some nice bundle packages of all the redist installs if you want to pre-pollute a fresh Windows install with years of accumulated crustyness/garbage on the first day.)

 

For the future, the Windows 10 UWP App deployment has an option to include all the dependencies in the App package much like a "portable" install would work but it remains to be seen if developers will see an advantage to bloating up their code like that.

 

 

 

cplusplus.png

 

All of this is just from steam on my gaming pc...

 

Notice no Windows 10: I'm not jumping ship until I actually have to, it works fine for me with Never10 installed.

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
On 6/17/2016 at 6:12 AM, Richard C. said:

cplusplus.png

 

All of this is just from steam on my gaming pc...

 

Notice no Windows 10: I'm not jumping ship until I actually have to, it works fine for me with Never10 installed.

I hope that everyone sees this as a "Good Thing" which just illustrates the popularity, longevity and diversity of the Windows ecosystem.

 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
On 6/21/2016 at 4:06 PM, DevTech said:

I hope that everyone sees this as a "Good Thing" which just illustrates the popularity, longevity and diversity of the Windows ecosystem.

 

And another one...

 

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=48234

 

Introducing the Universal CRT:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2015/03/03/introducing-the-universal-crt/

 

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