Are Games Ever Released Complete?

[game_over]

Want full games? Go nintendo... with the exception of DLC you generally get a full releases game, no pre-crap, half assed games that require you to buy DLC to get the full experience, rushed, buggy, rubbish... the PC gaming industry is a joke with this at the minute.

 

[spacer]

Welcome to the future of gaming. Pre-order culture and "games as a service" have all but killed any hope we have to going back to the way it should be. And don't even get me started on the "season pass" bullsh--.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

12 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

You do realise that, once upon a time, nearly all that stuff that you're paying extra  for in your "collectors" edition, used come completely free, until the publishers realised they could actually SELL this stuff to the <snip> gamers?  

That's only true if you are talking about digital content. Most CE / LE collectors care about the physical items as much or more than digital items.

[FloatingFatMan]

Just now, Andrew said:

That's only true if you are talking about digital content. Most CE / LE collectors care about the physical items as much or more than digital items.

Nope. Roll the clock back 20 years, before digital content even existed. ALL games came with manuals and other inserts such as posters and such. It wasn't unknown to get OST discs included as well... All for the standard price of the game.  These days? Forget it... If you get a boxed copy, you'll be lucky to even get an actual disc instead of a sealed Steam key, let alone manuals or anything like that.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Just now, FloatingFatMan said:

Nope. Roll the clock back 20 years, before digital content even existed. ALL games came with manuals and other inserts such as posters and such. It wasn't unknown to get OST discs included as well... All for the standard price of the game.  These days? Forget it... If you get a boxed copy, you'll be lucky to even get an actual disc instead of a sealed Steam key, let alone manuals or anything like that.

There is no way 20 years ago you would have received anything like Master Chief's helmet ala Halo 3 Legendary Edition for the basic price of the game. I'm talking about proper LE / CE content, not just the paper stuff.

[FloatingFatMan]

16 minutes ago, Andrew said:

There is no way 20 years ago you would have received anything like Master Chief's helmet ala Halo 3 Legendary Edition for the basic price of the game. I'm talking about proper LE / CE content, not just the paper stuff.

Things like that were around, for extra yes. But I've seen a lot of these so called "collectors" editions on sale with nothing more in them than what used to be included as part of the normal purchase.

 

Hell, the original copy of Carmageddon I bought years ago came with a copy of the movie Deathrace 2000 (the original) on VHS, for no cost extra at all! I still have it too, sat on my shelf of things the wife isn't allowed to toss out.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Just now, FloatingFatMan said:

Things like that were around, for extra yes. But I've seen a lot of these so called "collectors" editions on sale with nothing more in them than what used to be included as part of the normal purchase.

 

Hell, the original copy of Carmageddon I bought years ago came with a copy of the movie Deathrace 2000 (the original) on VHS, for no cost extra at all! I still have it too, sat on my shelf of things the wife isn't allowed to toss out.

Oh yeah I agree, some publishers take the mick and offer exactly what you describe. Heck, manuals have been gone years and inserts are almost completely gone now too. At the start of last gen you at least got some EULA legal info sheets. Now it's either printed on the back of the cover or found on the disc instead. Their reason of course is to be more eco, but I don't think anyone is interested in CE / LEs today for that content Although I think most "old timers" like us miss manuals quite a bit, it's not a selling point for CE / LEs.

 

When it comes to the real CE / LE packages, it is very understandable why some pre-order them for the statues / busts / figures etc.

[madd-hatter]

12 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

You do realise that, once upon a time, nearly all that stuff that you're paying extra  for in your "collectors" edition, used come completely free, until the publishers realised they could actually SELL this stuff to the <snip> gamers?  

Nice bait post. I'm glad we have such a wise mind around to help others absorb well presented and valid information.

[FloatingFatMan]

3 minutes ago, madd-hatter said:

Nice bait post. I'm glad we have such a wise mind around to help others absorb well presented and valid information.

It wasn't bait.  What else would you call someone who would pay for something that used to be free? If you feel baited, that's your own problem, not mine.

[Andre S. Veteran]

Games had bugs back then too. It's not like they somehow had incredible QA and all forgot how to do that. It just took longer to get your hands on a fix because Internet was barely a thing. 

 

Early Access. It is what it is. If you don't understand what alpha software is, that's not the developer's problem. They'll happily take your money and voluntary testing time. More advantageous than paying an army of drones to do it. Is it somehow unethical? If it's clearly advertised as early access I don't see how.

 

Newly released software is always rough around the edges; doesn't matter if its video games, operating systems, self-driving cars, etc. Human nature is such that people build unrealistic expectations ("hype") and a significant portion of them is ready to pay way too much too early for a product. Publishers exploit this. Understand this and stop pre-ordering software or buying it on launch day; it's not because something is out that you have to buy it. Wait for a few months until most bugs are ironed out and the price goes down; waiting for the first Steam sale may actually be a winning strategy.

[FloatingFatMan]

16 minutes ago, Andre S. said:

Early Access. It is what it is. If you don't understand what alpha software is, that's not the developer's problem. They'll happily take your money and voluntary testing time. More advantageous than paying an army of drones to do it. Is it somehow unethical? If it's clearly advertised as early access I don't see how.

I think it's unethical when the company charges MORE for the early access than they do for the released product.  Scumbaggery, too..

[Andre S. Veteran]

44 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

I think it's unethical when the company charges MORE for the early access than they do for the released product.  Scumbaggery, too..

They're giving you the option of supporting them with your time and money. I did this for 2 kickstarter games I really cared about and wanted to see succeed. How is it unethical that they give you this option? Apparently, lots of people are willing to do that.

[FloatingFatMan]

7 minutes ago, Andre S. said:

They're giving you the option of supporting them with your time and money. I did this for 2 kickstarter games I really cared about and wanted to see succeed. How is it unethical that they give you this option? Apparently, lots of people are willing to do that.

It's not supporting them I object to, it's the ones that charge you more for that "privilege" than they do those that just buy it on release.

 

Frontier Developments are an example for that... They did it with Elite Dangerous, and they did it with Planet Coaster. Almost double for alpha access than the RRP, despicable.  I remember the days when alpha or beta access was FREE and games companies where glad of the help gamers gave them to get their product ready for release.

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by FloatingFatMan

[Boo Berry]

I miss the 16-bit days of gaming when the games released were more-or-less complete.

[Andre S. Veteran]

9 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

It's not supporting them I object to, it's the ones that charge you more for that "privilege" than they do those that just but it on release.

 

Frontier Developments are an example for that... They did it with Elite Dangerous, and they did it with Planet Coaster. Almost double for alpha access than the RRP, despicable.  I remember the days when alpha or beta access was FREE and games companies where glad of the help gamers gave them to get their product ready for release.

I think this is a case where the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument applies well... some people are irrational enough to overpay for some unfinished product based on hype, some publishers will exploit that. They don't advertise the game as finished and they don't lie about the price so it's not like it's fraud or anything.

 

While I admit this can happen, in general I think developers have good reasons not to open a beta to everyone or ask a higher price of entry for it. For instance, the game is high quality enough that giving away the beta would result in many lost sales. Or, with Steam making beta access so easy, too many people would participate and they couldn't handle that much feedback anyway; they would rather have a smaller pool of more dedicated testers. Money is a legitimate reason anyway, most devs genuinely could and will use more funds to release a higher quality game, it's not like they pocket it and buy sports cars.

[FloatingFatMan]

1 minute ago, Andre S. said:

it's not like they pocket it and buy sports cars.

Well, unless maybe your name is Chris Roberts...

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

1 hour ago, Andre S. said:

Games had bugs back then too. It's not like they somehow had incredible QA and all forgot how to do that. It just took longer to get your hands on a fix because Internet was barely a thing. 

 

Early Access. It is what it is. If you don't understand what alpha software is, that's not the developer's problem. They'll happily take your money and voluntary testing time. More advantageous than paying an army of drones to do it. Is it somehow unethical? If it's clearly advertised as early access I don't see how.

 

Newly released software is always rough around the edges; doesn't matter if its video games, operating systems, self-driving cars, etc. Human nature is such that people build unrealistic expectations ("hype") and a significant portion of them is ready to pay way too much too early for a product. Publishers exploit this. Understand this and stop pre-ordering software or buying it on launch day; it's not because something is out that you have to buy it. Wait for a few months until most bugs are ironed out and the price goes down; waiting for the first Steam sale may actually be a winning strategy.

I don't agree with that at all. It is the responsibility of the publisher and developer to sell the game when it functions. Too many games are released at their set deadline regardless of their status, e.g Halo MCC, Batman AK and AC Unity.

 

It's not an unrealistic expectation that the product I buy should work. I don't drive a car out of the car showroom for the first time, and the wheels fall off, for the salesman to say "shouldn't expect so much".

[Andre S. Veteran]

1 hour ago, Andrew said:

I don't agree with that at all. It is the responsibility of the publisher and developer to sell the game when it functions. Too many games are released at their set deadline regardless of their status, e.g Halo MCC, Batman AK and AC Unity.

 

It's not an unrealistic expectation that the product I buy should work. I don't drive a car out of the car showroom for the first time, and the wheels fall off, for the salesman to say "shouldn't expect so much".

The more complex the product, the more chances the first iterations are going to have issues. This is even true of cars, buying a new model on its first production year is a riskier proposition than a 2nd or 3rd year refresh.

 

Video games are way more complex than cars and the impact of error is much lower (life isn't on the line), so it's inevitable the rate of defect will be high on new releases. Expecting to be able to just trust all game developers to release highly polished products and buy without reading any review (which in today's age are abundant and available within days of release) is simply utopian. You have the tools at your disposal to make informed purchases.

 

Note that if the game simply doesn't work (i.e. wheels fall off analogy), Steam refund policy protects you from that.

[Andre S. Veteran]

Where there might be an actual ethical question there would be pre-release marketing material; if it fails to mention the game might be severely broken on release, and it is, and they fail to fix in a reasonably timely manner, then perhaps this could be viewed as fraud in a sense. They do mention (in tiny characters) it's pre-release footage and the final product may differ, so not sure how much basis there would be in e.g. suing them. It's like those SUVs driving across formidable obstacles in commercials, can't sue because you got stuck there.

 

I guess more than a decade of following the game industry has made me so desensitized to marketing material that I don't even consider it.  (To give you an idea, I wasn't aware of No Man's Sky until release, so I never even entertained the notion it might be a game worth buying.) I would only pre-order from a developer that has a proven record of superior quality, i.e. Blizzard, CD Projekt, perhaps Obsidian (lately)...

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

13 hours ago, Andre S. said:

The more complex the product, the more chances the first iterations are going to have issues. This is even true of cars, buying a new model on its first production year is a riskier proposition than a 2nd or 3rd year refresh.

 

Video games are way more complex than cars and the impact of error is much lower (life isn't on the line), so it's inevitable the rate of defect will be high on new releases. Expecting to be able to just trust all game developers to release highly polished products and buy without reading any review (which in today's age are abundant and available within days of release) is simply utopian. You have the tools at your disposal to make informed purchases.

 

Note that if the game simply doesn't work (i.e. wheels fall off analogy), Steam refund policy protects you from that.

Again, just because they are complex, doesn't mean that issues should not be addressed before they are put on sale. However, many publishers simply push their studios to meet deadlines and put their games on sale regardless. It's "sell now, fix later" at best, fixes are never released at worst. This was quite a problem last generation when MS/Sony charged for fixes, and developers simply didn't have the money to submit them. Other times we're not just talking about little bugs either, but instead major functionality is missing or broken. I don't believe for one second these developers put out the code without knowing this. Time and time again we have studios reminisce about their old releases and how badly things were left, but they tell us their hands were tied.

 

I'm not suggesting buying everything without research or trusting every developer either. I couldn't be further from that ideal. Refund policies also sometimes have major caveats, especially when we deal with digital products. Steam only provides 2 hours of game time before they will refuse refunds. Note, that I'm aware they do bend this rule, but they also don't have to and can stop that at any time. Want to press the matter further and get your bank involved? You can risk losing your entire digital account if you rightfully reverse charges. You are at the mercy of some of the worst support teams around who are commonly instructed to avoid refunds.

[Danielx64]

5 minutes ago, Andrew said:

You can risk losing your entire digital account if you rightfully reverse charges. You are at the mercy of some of the worst support teams around who are commonly instructed to avoid refunds.

Wouldn't that be fraud if steam close someone's account down because that user is using their rights?

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

4 minutes ago, Danielx64 said:

Wouldn't that be fraud if steam close someone's account down because that user is using their rights?

Nope.

 

Quote

What if I disputed the purchase because of issues with the product?

We encourage users to work Steam Support for technical issues with products. Users may also need to contact the developer/publisher of the product for specific technical support.

If issues are unable to be resolved through support, users are encouraged to submit a refund request through Steam.

 

It's included in all of the big digital stores T&Cs.

 

Quote

Why do chargebacks result in account restrictions?

Chargebacks typically occur when someone identifies unknown charges on their bank account, or finds purchases that were made without their consent.

In order to protect our users from additional unknown charges, accounts associated with chargebacks are restricted while disputes are reviewed.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6687-HJVM-8966

 

Ever lose your account to phishing etc? You best never contact your bank to dispute charges. You are in for one hell of a ride with PSN, Steam and XBL support to resolve it and get your account / content back.

[Danielx64]

Just now, Andrew said:

Nope.

 

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6687-HJVM-8966

 

It's included in all of the big digital stores T&Cs.

And what if steam refuse to provide the refund because of the devs? The devs could tell steam not to provide refunds.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

1 minute ago, Danielx64 said:

And what if steam refuse to provide the refund because of the devs? The devs could tell steam not to provide refunds.

Exactly! They have the final say

[Danielx64]

Just now, Andrew said:

Exactly! They have the final say

So it would be fraud if steam close someone's account when they go to their bank for a charge back for a bad game (when they have the right for a refund in the first place).