PlayStation Meeting 2016


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49 minutes ago, Asmodai said:

4k MIGHT be 25% of NEW TV sales...maybe. But people don't replace TVs yearly and there is no way it's that high of a percentage of TVs in active use. Most TVs in active use are likely several years old.

 

As for HDR it's a software update so it's not like it took any focus from the hardware design of the system.

 

I would argue its a lot higher than 25% on new sales, 95% of new TV's above 55" would be 4K in Australian shops. You would have to go out of your way to find one not 4K and would be a subpar chinese set. I have friends who work at JB HiFi (Australia's largert retailer) and every TV they sell besides cheap sets for the childrens rooms are 4K. It's hard to find statistics on this but, and I'm sure it would vary country to country as well. Anyone shopping for a new TV today right now wouldn't be looking at anything but 4K unless size is an issue. 

 

Can only find this article about market penetration (sets inside homes) being around 50% by 2020. TV's being one of those items your right only replaced every 5-10 years for people not on such a high disposable income. 

 

http://www.channelnews.com.au/4k-uhd-tvs-to-be-48-of-the-market-within-4-years/

1 hour ago, Asmodai said:

4k MIGHT be 25% of NEW TV sales...maybe. But people don't replace TVs yearly and there is no way it's that high of a percentage of TVs in active use. Most TVs in active use are likely several years old.

 

As for HDR it's a software update so it's not like it took any focus from the hardware design of the system.

 

http://www.rapidtvnews.com/2016040742376/trendforce-4ktv-penetration-to-pass-23-in-2016.html

 

Quote

Almost a quarter of the world’s population will own a 4K TV set by the end of 2016, with Chinese manufacturers poised to take a large chunk of the LCD market, according to Trendforce.

 

i am very mixed on what I saw from the PS4 Pro (i liked the Neo name better)

 

i was impressed on the "magic" they used to upscale the games.. they did look amazing

seems like the same magic Remedy used w/Quantum Break... Just on beefier hardware

 

$399 is the biggest applause, I'll give Sony, i would of went $429 and just threw in the 4K Blu-Ray Drive and just ate the cost if there were a difference.

But I know Sony refuses to lose anymore $$$ on console hardware.

Just now, soniqstylz said:

So just read an unconfirmed rumor that TLOU will have a patch to run native 4K/30fps

It is confirmed, it's getting a native 4K patch.

 

ESO is another native 4K game, but you can see below why

 

 

  • Like 1
1 minute ago, Andrew said:

Found another reason to hold off playing, @Audioboxer :rofl:

:laugh:

 

And I'm not believing that lie. You'd be playing it at 1080/60 anyway. Not 30 stinking FPS.

 

Also first mention of 4K/60 but of course, it'll end up indie and/or not visually taxing games

 

Quote

 

I work at Hi-Rez Studios, makers of SMITE.

 

We currently have SMITE running at 4K, 60FPS on a PS4 Pro dev kit, so the hardware is definitely capable of it.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/51n52n/ps4_pro_announced_399111016/d7dathb

  • Like 2
14 hours ago, Vandalsquad said:

I would argue its a lot higher than 25% on new sales, 95% of new TV's above 55" would be 4K in Australian shops. You would have to go out of your way to find one not 4K and would be a subpar chinese set. I have friends who work at JB HiFi (Australia's largert retailer) and every TV they sell besides cheap sets for the childrens rooms are 4K. It's hard to find statistics on this but, and I'm sure it would vary country to country as well. Anyone shopping for a new TV today right now wouldn't be looking at anything but 4K unless size is an issue. 

The 25% stat was soniqstylz not mine and as such I have no intention of arguing how true it is one way or another, my "MIGHT...maybe" comment was intended to express my doubt that he had a valid source for that number not that I didn't think it reached that number specifically.  My actual point was that most TVs people actively use aren't 4k right now and I stand by that no matter what the specific percentage of NEW sales may be.  Most people don't buy new TVs yearly.

14 hours ago, Vandalsquad said:

 

Can only find this article about market penetration (sets inside homes) being around 50% by 2020. TV's being one of those items your right only replaced every 5-10 years for people not on such a high disposable income. 

 

http://www.channelnews.com.au/4k-uhd-tvs-to-be-48-of-the-market-within-4-years/

That article then supports my argument.  Thank you for saving me the time of looking up a source.  Again, my argument is that most people don't currently have 4k TVs.  According to your source not only is that true but it is expected to continue to be true for the next four years... which happens to be two years beyond my anticipated release year of the 4k disc supporting PS5.

  • Like 1
13 hours ago, soniqstylz said:

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

In my post I simply stated "Most people don't have 4k TVs yet anyway."

 

The 25% number was yours and frankly I don't care what the specific number is... unless it's > 50% which would disprove my "Most people don't have 4k TVs yet anyway" statement.  If it's 20% or 25% or 30% makes no difference to the point I was making and you replied to.

 

That being said your own quote in fact DISPROVES your original stat.  The quote is:

"ALMOST a quarter of the world’s population will own a 4K TV set by the end of 2016, with Chinese manufacturers poised to take a large chunk of the LCD market, according to Trendforce."

 

"Almost" means it's not a quarter yet but they anticipate it will reach there by the end of 2016.  Considering a good number of sales likely come in the Black Friday and Christmas holiday shopping season it's probably a good ways away from 25% right now.  Again though if it is 25% specifically or not doesn't change the fact that MOST (i.e. > 50%) of households don't own 4k TVs right now anyway so there isn't a huge rush for Sony to have a 4k movie disc player in their gaming console.  According to Vandalsquad's source they don't even expect it to hit 50% until 2020 which is likely years after the PS5 comes out which will almost certainly have a 4k disc player.

  • Like 2

This is a good listen from DF

 

 

Getting excited about the thought of some of the fall games getting a Pro patch (TLF/FF15).


Dat triple decker burger/heater is going to make some console games look amazing.

3 hours ago, Asmodai said:

I'm not sure what your point is here.

 

In my post I simply stated "Most people don't have 4k TVs yet anyway."

 

The 25% number was yours and frankly I don't care what the specific number is... unless it's > 50% which would disprove my "Most people don't have 4k TVs yet anyway" statement.  If it's 20% or 25% or 30% makes no difference to the point I was making and you replied to.

 

That being said your own quote in fact DISPROVES your original stat.  The quote is:

"ALMOST a quarter of the world’s population will own a 4K TV set by the end of 2016, with Chinese manufacturers poised to take a large chunk of the LCD market, according to Trendforce."

 

"Almost" means it's not a quarter yet but they anticipate it will reach there by the end of 2016.  Considering a good number of sales likely come in the Black Friday and Christmas holiday shopping season it's probably a good ways away from 25% right now.  Again though if it is 25% specifically or not doesn't change the fact that MOST (i.e. > 50%) of households don't own 4k TVs right now anyway so there isn't a huge rush for Sony to have a 4k movie disc player in their gaming console.  According to Vandalsquad's source they don't even expect it to hit 50% until 2020 which is likely years after the PS5 comes out which will almost certainly have a 4k disc player.

Ok now go back and check market penetration for 1080p or blu-ray when the PS3/360 came out.

 

A big chunk of the reason they do this is to move the tech forward, not worry about what's big now.  My point was that they were pushing the HDR which has an effect on the rendering of games but affects about 5% of TVs, but didn't put in a UHD blu-ray player which it should be able to do no sweat and would affect roughly 25% of TVs.

 

I first made the point about market penetration and you said that it would maybe be that 25% of NEW TVs would be 4k.  The point of my post was to refute it, that no indeed we are looking at nearly 25% market share worldwide (not just US numbers).

1 minute ago, soniqstylz said:

Ok now go back and check market penetration for 1080p or blu-ray when the PS3/360 came out.

And the Xbox 360 didn't even have a Blu-Ray player yet it heavily outsold the PS3 which did in the largest market (U.S.)  So why would Sony want to repeat that?  Clearly people don't care so much about the disc format, it certainly didn't help the PS3.  Furthermore the PS3 actually COULD use the expanded storage of the new media for games.  The PS4 Pro can't because it would render the disc unreadable on non-Pro PS4s.  Sony has a huge lead over the Xbox One with the PS4 and I don't think not putting a Ultra HD Blu-Ray drive on the PS4 Pro, even if the Xbox One S has one, is going to hurt that lead to any significant degree.  It's just not a big deal.

 

1 minute ago, soniqstylz said:

A big chunk of the reason they do this is to move the tech forward, not worry about what's big now.  My point was that they were pushing the HDR which has an effect on the rendering of games but affects about 5% of TVs, but didn't put in a UHD blu-ray player which it should be able to do no sweat and would affect roughly 25% of TVs.

Because HDR is a software patch that has ZERO hardware cost and applies to all consoles from launch forward.  An UHD Blu-Ray player in the Pro has increased hardware costs and effects only the fraction of their install base that ends up getting a Pro.  They got done what was cheaper/easier to do and they "push" what they got done.

 

1 minute ago, soniqstylz said:

I first made the point about market penetration and you said that it would maybe be that 25% of NEW TVs would be 4k.  The point of my post was to refute it, that no indeed we are looking at nearly 25% market share worldwide (not just US numbers).

I was making no statement there to refute.  I was just casting doubt on YOUR stat.  The 25% came from you and NOT me.  The "MIGHT...maybe" part again was meant to impart my doubt of your statistic being valid NOT to say I didn't think the number was that high specifically.  In rereading what I wrote after your first reply though I could see how it could be interpreted the other way and so I already clarified that in my last post.  Again, I don't care what the specific number is, I don't care if it's lower than 25 or higher than 25, heck I'll give you it's 30 or 40 if it makes you feel better.  It it no way contradicts my original claim of "Most people don't have 4k TVs anyway" that you replied to.  Heck even 49% is still not most...

 

Furthermore my doubt of your stat ended up being correct as you disproved your own claim with your "ALMOST a quarter... by the end of 2016" source.

  • Like 1
11 minutes ago, Asmodai said:

And the Xbox 360 didn't even have a Blu-Ray player yet it heavily outsold the PS3 which did in the largest market (U.S.)  So why would Sony want to repeat that?  Clearly people don't care so much about the disc format, it certainly didn't help the PS3.  Furthermore the PS3 actually COULD use the expanded storage of the new media for games.  The PS4 Pro can't because it would render the disc unreadable on non-Pro PS4s.  Sony has a huge lead over the Xbox One with the PS4 and I don't think not putting a Ultra HD Blu-Ray drive on the PS4 Pro, even if the Xbox One S has one, is going to hurt that lead to any significant degree.  It's just not a big deal.

 

Because HDR is a software patch that has ZERO hardware cost and applies to all consoles from launch forward.  An UHD Blu-Ray player in the Pro has increased hardware costs and effects only the fraction of their install base that ends up getting a Pro.  They got done what was cheaper/easier to do and they "push" what they got done.

 

I was making no statement there to refute.  I was just casting doubt on YOUR stat.  The 25% came from you and NOT me.  The "MIGHT...maybe" part again was meant to impart my doubt of your statistic being valid NOT to say I didn't think the number was that high specifically.  In rereading what I wrote after your first reply though I could see how it could be interpreted the other way and so I already clarified that in my last post.  Again, I don't care what the specific number is, I don't care if it's lower than 25 or higher than 25, heck I'll give you it's 30 or 40 if it makes you feel better.  It it no way contradicts my original claim of "Most people don't have 4k TVs anyway" that you replied to.  Heck even 49% is still not most...

 

Furthermore my doubt of your stat ended up being correct as you disproved your own claim with your "ALMOST a quarter... by the end of 2016" source.

Agree with you completely, but the PS3 eventually outsold the 360 WW. However, the sentiment is the same that blu-ray did not set the consoles apart like Sony gambled on (and lost a significant amount of £$€).

 

Sadly I think this UHD topic is going to turn out like Blast Processing all over again. It's the one spec on the sheet which PS4 Pro doesn't have, and fans are just going to regurgitate the claim over and over. It doesn't matter that the console has better specs in every other department :sleep:

5 minutes ago, Asmodai said:

And the Xbox 360 didn't even have a Blu-Ray player yet it heavily outsold the PS3 which did in the largest market (U.S.)  So why would Sony want to repeat that?  Clearly people don't care so much about the disc format, it certainly didn't help the PS3.  Furthermore the PS3 actually COULD use the expanded storage of the new media for games.  The PS4 Pro can't because it would render the disc unreadable on non-Pro PS4s.  Sony has a huge lead over the Xbox One with the PS4 and I don't think not putting a Ultra HD Blu-Ray drive on the PS4 Pro, even if the Xbox One S has one, is going to hurt that lead to any significant degree.  It's just not a big deal.

 

Because HDR is a software patch that has ZERO hardware cost and applies to all consoles from launch forward.  An UHD Blu-Ray player in the Pro has increased hardware costs and effects only the fraction of their install base that ends up getting a Pro.  They got done what was cheaper/easier to do and they "push" what they got done.

 

I was making no statement there to refute.  I was just casting doubt on YOUR stat.  The 25% came from you and NOT me.  The "MIGHT...maybe" part again was meant to impart my doubt of your statistic being valid NOT to say I didn't think the number was that high specifically.  In rereading what I wrote after your first reply though I could see how it could be interpreted the other way and so I already clarified that in my last post.  Again, I don't care what the specific number is, I don't care if it's lower than 25 or higher than 25, heck I'll give you it's 30 or 40 if it makes you feel better.  It it no way contradicts my original claim of "Most people don't have 4k TVs anyway" that you replied to.  Heck even 49% is still not most...

 

Furthermore my doubt of your stat ended up being correct as you disproved your own claim with your "ALMOST a quarter... by the end of 2016" source.

Actually, the disc format DID help the PS3, early adopters were getting it as a nice (at the time cheap) Blu-ray player.  Gamers didn't want the $599 USD price tag which is why it didn't sell well at first but eventually caught up to the 360 well before PS4/X1 came out.  The 360 year headstart helped as well.

 

There's no reason to use UHD discs for games.  HOWEVER, there's no reason not to include the a capable player to use for movies, especially when you're a main proponent of the format itself.  The Pro is aimed mostly at 4K adopters, both in gaming and streaming.  And yet the available streaming apps that do 4K (Netflix, Amazon, YouTube) are all base apps available native in every 4K TV out there.  What I can't get on my 4K TV is UHD.  Leaving that out of a "Pro" model that is again aimed at 4K adopters is an omission.  This entire console is a hardware cost.  It's one thing to leave it out of the Slim.

45 minutes ago, Andrew said:

Agree with you completely, but the PS3 eventually outsold the 360 WW. However, the sentiment is the same that blu-ray did not set the consoles apart like Sony gambled on (and lost a significant amount of £$€).

 

Sadly I think this UHD topic is going to turn out like Blast Processing all over again. It's the one spec on the sheet which PS4 Pro doesn't have, and fans are just going to regurgitate the claim over and over. It doesn't matter that the console has better specs in every other department :sleep:

Well Sony did have the GOD RAYS! Or was that Killzone 2? Something had "God Rays" lol.

 

The Xbox PR machine has already started with the true 4K claims

Scorpios power advantage over PS4 to be OBVIOUS

 

Expect them to be very noisy over the next few months, although this quick flurry would make you think they had an event alongside Sony...

  • Like 1
2 hours ago, soniqstylz said:

Actually, the disc format DID help the PS3, early adopters were getting it as a nice (at the time cheap) Blu-ray player.  Gamers didn't want the $599 USD price tag which is why it didn't sell well at first but eventually caught up to the 360 well before PS4/X1 came out.  The 360 year headstart helped as well.

It didn't help sell PS3s, the launch sales were awful.  Sony had to strip down the console, dropping ports, dropping flash support, dropping hardware backwards compatibility to get the price down so people would buy it because they didn't think it was worth the price for the new disc format.  It was the blue lasers for the Blu-ray drive that made it cost so much and consumers didn't think it was worth it.  The Xbox 360 had an "outdated" DVD drive and it sold just fine.  The market taught Sony it didn't care that much about movie disc formats... lesson learned.  Yeah it was a great cheap Blu-ray player for those who did care (of which I was one) but there weren't enough of us to make the console a sales success.  Sony eventually caught up to (and passed) the Xbox 360 in sales globally but it wasn't the new disc type that did that and it never even got remotely close in the U.S.

2 hours ago, soniqstylz said:

There's no reason to use UHD discs for games.

Yes, there is.  It has increased capacity up to 100GB which is twice what a standard Blu-ray can hold.  Games are already running into the 50GB cap.  Just as one example you can buy GotY editions of games that are supposed to include all DLC but they don't put it on disc because there isn't room.  Instead they put the base game only on the disc and you have to enter codes and download the DLC.  With UHD discs the whole thing would fit there.  Plus, if it was an option I have no doubt more developers would take advantage of the extra space.  Not every game would need it of course but it would absolutely get used.

8 hours ago, Asmodai said:

The 25% stat was soniqstylz not mine and as such I have no intention of arguing how true it is one way or another, my "MIGHT...maybe" comment was intended to express my doubt that he had a valid source for that number not that I didn't think it reached that number specifically.  My actual point was that most TVs people actively use aren't 4k right now and I stand by that no matter what the specific percentage of NEW sales may be.  Most people don't buy new TVs yearly.

 

 

My argument was 4K TV sales account for nearly all brand new TV sales today. No ones buying a new TV that isn't 4K, I believed you had typed only 25% of new TV's being sold where 4K I must of misunderstood. 

 

8 hours ago, Asmodai said:

 

That article then supports my argument.  Thank you for saving me the time of looking up a source.  Again, my argument is that most people don't currently have 4k TVs.  According to your source not only is that true but it is expected to continue to be true for the next four years... which happens to be two years beyond my anticipated release year of the 4k disc supporting PS5.

And no one had DVD players when the PS2 was launched and even at $1,100 it was the cheapest on the market in Australia and drove for progression and pushed the format forward and sold a hell of a lot of PS2's because of that. It was one of the main reasons for me purchasing one over the Dreamcast. (I'm not advocating in anyway UHD will ever be in the same league as DVD) But progression is nice to be pushed. 

 

The PS4 Pro is being marketed as a premium device, but fails to include a serious premium feature we all assumed would be included. This discussion will continue to go in circles but and just reminds me of the xbox one launch of those on both sides going round and round and don't want us to fall back to having threads like that again.

 

 

12 hours ago, Vandalsquad said:

My argument was 4K TV sales account for nearly all brand new TV sales today. No ones buying a new TV that isn't 4K, I believed you had typed only 25% of new TV's being sold where 4K I must of misunderstood. 

I understand what your argument is, it has nothing to do with what I said that you replied to and I am not attempting to dispute it.   After your reply I went back and reread what I wrote and I can see how it could be interpreted as you did but that was NOT my intent.  As such a made a point to clarify what I meant by the statement so that this point we are in complete agreement here I believe.

12 hours ago, Vandalsquad said:

 

And no one had DVD players when the PS2 was launched and even at $1,100 it was the cheapest on the market in Australia and drove for progression and pushed the format forward and sold a hell of a lot of PS2's because of that. It was one of the main reasons for me purchasing one over the Dreamcast. (I'm not advocating in anyway UHD will ever be in the same league as DVD) But progression is nice to be pushed. 

When the PS2 was released it was a different world.  Console makers in general and Sony in particular where interested in pushing the tech envelope with their consoles.  They spent a good deal of money on R&D to make mostly custom architectures and sold the consoles at a loss at launch with the intent of making a profit over time via peripheral sales, software licensing, and hardware cost reductions over time.  Those days are over, consumers killed them by showing console makers they were willing to buy low spec hardware (at the time of launch) like the Wii in droves and they weren't willing to spend money for expensive custom hardware like Cell or Blu-Ray drives.  Now consoles are only slightly modified PC components that are sold at a profit from day one.  Sony isn't interested anymore in pushing the tech envelope via consoles and having a UHD drive on the Pro isn't going to make or break them in terms of sales this generation.

12 hours ago, Vandalsquad said:

 

The PS4 Pro is being marketed as a premium device, but fails to include a serious premium feature we all assumed would be included. This discussion will continue to go in circles but and just reminds me of the xbox one launch of those on both sides going round and round and don't want us to fall back to having threads like that again.

 That's what we get for assuming.  It's being marketed as a premium device because it has double the GPU power, not because it's good at playing movies.  Sony made a big deal from the launch of PS4 at how games are first (in contrast to MS) and media capabilities come second so it's not all that surprising.  Am I a bit disappointed, sure, but I'm not shocked or outraged.  Personally I had no intention of buying a Pro no matter if it had a UHD drive or not.  My current PS4 has twice the storage and will play all the games the Pro does.  I'll get a 4k console when it can actually play 4k native games and not have to upscale to 4k (Project Scorpio?  PS5?)  With any luck the PS5 will be backwards compatible in 2018 and play PS4 games in "Neo mode" where it's supported.  Either way I'm not spending $400 on a sub-4k resolution bump. (or $275 with a $125 trade-in which is what I believe GameStop is offering around here)

  • Like 1

came across this interesting article.  Not all games on PS4 Pro will receive a spit shine, is this true?

 

Gamespot is reporting that following the unveiling of the PS4 Pro last week they managed to get in some questions with the developers about whether or not the games would run at higher frame-rates on the PS4 Pro. One such game is Mass Effect: Andromeda, which was one of the showcase games for Sony's new 4K-enabled game console. However, according to BioWare producer Fabrice Condominas, the upcoming sci-fi space opera will not run any different on the PS4 Pro compared to the PS4.

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1555009/not-every-game-will-perform-better-on-ps4-pro

10 hours ago, Showan said:

came across this interesting article.  Not all games on PS4 Pro will receive a spit shine, is this true?

 

Gamespot is reporting that following the unveiling of the PS4 Pro last week they managed to get in some questions with the developers about whether or not the games would run at higher frame-rates on the PS4 Pro. One such game is Mass Effect: Andromeda, which was one of the showcase games for Sony's new 4K-enabled game console. However, according to BioWare producer Fabrice Condominas, the upcoming sci-fi space opera will not run any different on the PS4 Pro compared to the PS4.

 

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/1555009/not-every-game-will-perform-better-on-ps4-pro

The way they word this is confusing but let me break it down as I understand it.

 

When they say it won't "perform" and different they are talking ONLY about FPS.  This is going to be true for most games.  The idea Sony is pushing for the PRO is for developers to increase the resolution while keeping the FPS as close to identical with the non-Pro console as possible. (there may be other little extra's in the Pro version as well like better Anti-Aliasing, more particles, etc.)

 

This is especially important for multiplayer games where having the Pro 60fps while the non-Pro is 30fps would be a HUGE advantage for the Pro players.  I personally think the resolution bump is still a significant advantage but Sony seems to disagree.  So the vast majority of games will likely have nearly identical (Sony claims it will be identical... I call B.S. on that as you can't hit the exact same FPS with spikes and dips and such on two different pieces of hardware at two different resolutions) "performance" it's just the PRO will be higher resolution with possible extra/improved effects.

 

The only games you may see significant "performance" (i.e. FPS) improvements on the Pro are single player ones but again Sony is really pushing devs to use the extra GPU power to up the resolution not the frame rate.

14 minutes ago, Asmodai said:

The way they word this is confusing but let me break it down as I understand it.

 

When they say it won't "perform" and different they are talking ONLY about FPS.  This is going to be true for most games.  The idea Sony is pushing for the PRO is for developers to increase the resolution while keeping the FPS as close to identical with the non-Pro console as possible. (there may be other little extra's in the Pro version as well like better Anti-Aliasing, more particles, etc.)

 

This is especially important for multiplayer games where having the Pro 60fps while the non-Pro is 30fps would be a HUGE advantage for the Pro players.  I personally think the resolution bump is still a significant advantage but Sony seems to disagree.  So the vast majority of games will likely have nearly identical (Sony claims it will be identical... I call B.S. on that as you can't hit the exact same FPS with spikes and dips and such on two different pieces of hardware at two different resolutions) "performance" it's just the PRO will be higher resolution with possible extra/improved effects.

 

The only games you may see significant "performance" (i.e. FPS) improvements on the Pro are single player ones but again Sony is really pushing devs to use the extra GPU power to up the resolution not the frame rate.

 

Thanks for clarification.  

 

I just don't understand why a framerate bump wouldn't be given to single player games...

14 minutes ago, Showan said:

 

Thanks for clarification.  

 

I just don't understand why a framerate bump wouldn't be given to single player games...

Asmodai and I spoke about this last week, and IIRC developers are being told to max out the hardware any way they see fit when it comes to SP content. The level playing field stuff is more important when talking about MP performance. Although the real world results remain to be seen, and I am as skeptical as he is that devs can do it, as we have seen the X1 vs X1S cannot even stay at 1:1 performance.


 

Quote

 

Single-player games can still have a higher frame rate on the Pro than on the PS4, Gyrling said, but he added that it's likely developers working on AAA games will use that power to increase visuals, not frame rates.

"Developers are free in single-player modes to make their games run at a higher frame rate if they can," he said. "For triple-A titles in particular, we tend to use everything in the machine.

 

http://www.polygon.com/2016/9/8/12846740/playstation-pro-won-t-buy-you-much-of-an-online-advantage

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    • TerraMaster F2-425 Pro review: a low-powered Intel NAS that ships with AI (OpenClaw) by Steven Parker It has been a while since I reviewed a TerraMaster NAS, but the company reached out to me asking if I was willing to test the F4-425 Pro, which goes on sale today. It is an upgrade on the F4-425 Plus, which I reviewed back in October 2025 What you need to know is that it basically follows the design principles of the four-bay F4-425 series, with its all-metal exterior. Here are the most important specifications: TerraMaster F4-425 Pro CPU Intel Core N350 (8x E Cores/Threads, Max burst up to 3.9 GHz) Intel Core N305 (4x E Cores/Threads, Max burst up to 3.8 GHz) TDP: 7W / 9W (Base) Graphics Intel UHD Graphics 32 EUs (1.35 GHz) Intel UHD Graphics 24 EUs (1.25 GHz) Memory 1x slot 16 GB DDR5 4800MT/s non ECC SODIMM (Max 32 GB) 1x slot 8 GB DDR5 4800MT/s non ECC SODIMM (Max 32 GB) Disk Capacity 120 TB (30 TB x 4) Supported RAID Types TRAID, TRAID +, RAID0, RAID1, RAID5, RAID 6, RAID 10 Network 2x RJ-45 5 GbE Internal storage 3x M.2 2280 NVMe Slot (PCIe 3.0 x1) Bootloader 2Gbit 256 GB NAND Flash card (MX30LF2G28AD) USB port (internal) USB Ports 1x Type-C 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) 3x Type-A 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) HDMI 1x (HDMI) Hardware Transcoding Engine H.264, H.265, MPEG-4, VC-1 Maximum resolution: 4K (4096 x 2160); Maximum FPS: 60 Size (H/W/D) 219 x 181 x 150 mm Weight 2.9 kg System Fan 150 x181 x 219 mm Power 90W, 100V - 240V AC, 50/60 Hz, Single frequency Power consumption (HDDs) 45W (4x 4TB ST4000VN008 in read/write state) 14W (4x 4TB ST4000VN008 in hibernation) Noise Level: 20.9 dB(A) Using 4 SATA HDDs/SSDs in standby mode; Test environment noise: 17.3dB(A); Test distance: 1m Warranty 2 Years OS TOS 7.0.0706 (Beta) MSRP £639.99, $699.99, €739.99 / £739.99, $799.99, €839.99 As you can see above, there are two variants of the F4-425 Pro releasing today. The lesser variant has the slightly weaker N305 CPU and iGP, and 8 GB less RAM, although it also costs $100 less than the top variant we are testing today. In addition, these new F4-425 Pros are shipped with the as-yet-unreleased TOS 7 beta. So what is TOS 7 exactly? During the device initialization, you are warned not to use it in a production environment, which we'll get into later. My contact told me that TOS 7 exits beta today, June 23. The clear difference with the F4-425 Plus is that it contains the more powerful N350 Intel CPU released in the first quarter of 2025, with support for DisplayPort 1.4, HDMI 2.1, LPDDR5 (4800), DDR5 and DDR4, and a max TDP of just 7W. It also supports AV1 decoding, as well as H.264, VP8, VP9, H.265 (8 bit), and H.265 (10 bit). The different capabilities in the Alder Lake-N (and Twin Lake) series are listed below. Processor E-cores L3-cache Turbo clock GPU GPU-clock TDP Intel N355 8 6 MB 3.9 GHz 32 EUs 1.35 GHz 9 W Intel Core 3 N350 3.9 GHz 1.35 GHz 7 W Intel Core i3-N305 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz 9 W Intel Core i3-N300 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz Intel N250 4 3.8 GHz 1.25 GHz 6 W Intel Processor N200 3.7 GHz 0.75 GHz Intel N150 3.6 GHz 24 EUs 1 GHz Intel N97 1.2 GHz 12 W Intel Processor N100 3.4 GHz 0.75 GHz 6 W The CPU is part of the Alder Lake-N series that sits just below the top N355 offering, albeit with an impressive TDP (less than the N355 and N305) for the features it offers. It is designed for low- powered systems and entry-level laptops. As before, we are seeing another NAS with an acceptable, if not great, amount of RAM. It should be noted that the F4-425 Pro only has one SODIMM slot, so if you are planning to upgrade the already 16GB included in this NAS, it will have to be on one module of Single Rank DDR5. As a reminder, up until a couple of years ago, it was commonplace to only get 2 or 4GB max on a flagship Synology or QNAP home NAS. Ever since the likes of TerraMaster and more have entered the market with ample RAM sizes included in their NAS offerings, it has gone a long way in forcing the hands of the traditional makers to up their game a bit. Before we dive in, you can view the different SKUs released so far since the 2025 series launched for Home and SMB users, with the most important specifications listed along with the MSRP listed below: SKU CPU Cores Memory Link Price F2-425 Intel N5095 4 4 GB DDR4 2.5 GbE x1 $249.99 F4-425 Intel N5095 4 4 GB DDR4 2.5 GbE x1 $369.99 F2-425 Plus Intel Core N150 4 8 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $399.99 F4-425 Plus Intel Core N150 4 16 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $569.99 F4-425 Pro Intel Core N305 8 8 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $699.99 F4-425 Pro Intel Core N350 8 16 GB DDR5 5 GbE x 2 $799.99 The F2 in the product name means two 3.5-inch HDD bays, where F4 is four 2.5-inch bays. First impressions Like with the F8 SSD Plus packaging, the F4-425 Pro is using the upgraded box materials, which certainly look better than a plain cream colored box with TERRAMASTER stamped on the sides. The box gives off a premium feel and certainly adds a positive vibe to first impressions. In the box F4-425 Pro TNAS device Power adapter LAN cable (CAT 6) Quick guide [full online guide] Limited warranty notice Screws (for HDD bays) Stickers 2x rubber feet (spares) Design As has become kind of common with TerraMaster, certainly in the last three years, the 2025 F2- and F4-series have received a makeover that really adds to the premium feel of the NAS. Gone are the plastic shells, now replaced with an aluminum outer shell, with the front and back retaining the textured black plastic we saw on the 2024 models. Some key differences from the 2024 series include placing the power button back on the front, along with the addition of a Type A USB port. It's not much bigger or heavier either; in fact, it weighs 500 grams less than the F4-424 Pro. It's slightly shorter in height and depth (length), but only by a few millimeters. The front and back do retain a similar style to the 2024 series. On the front, you just have your four bays along with LED indicators for the HDDs and power. The welcomed change is having a USB port on the front for quick access, should you need to back up a USB drive, for example. Around the back, from top to bottom, you have a reset pin hole, an HDMI port, two 5 GbE Ethernet ports, two USB 3.2 Gen 2 (10 Gbps) Type A ports with a Type-C port below them, and a connector for the barrel port power source. Again, there's no Kensington Security Slot present, which is a bit of a shame considering it's a data storage device. Left side Right side On the left and right of the F4-425 Plus, it is completely smooth aluminum with a TERRAMASTER logo printed on both sides. On the bottom, there are some holes to assist ventilation. Unlike with the F4-425 Plus, the rubber feet did come unstuck during the teardown, which was also an issue on the 2023 series. It seems like other customers have lodged complaints about them, as TerraMaster now includes two spare rubber feet in the box, in case any of the preinstalled ones are lost; however, this seems more like a papering over the cracks solution rather than actually fixing the issue with better quality rubber stand-offs. There are also four screws that must be removed in order to access the internals. Teardown Upon removing the four screws, you can slide the device out of its shell to reveal the three NVMe M.2 slots (PCIe 3.0 X1) and single SODIMM slot connector, which is populated with a single 16GB DDR5 4800MT/s module. I added a couple of MP44Q M.2 PCIe 4.0 SSDs (2 x 4TB) that can be availed on Amazon for $492.99 that TEAMGROUP supplied us with, along with a 250GB 970 Evo Plus that my colleague Chris White sent me by accident and let me keep a few years ago. As I have said in previous reviews, TerraMaster support staff actually encourage installing whatever you want on their devices, and happily, the USB port for the bootloader is now easily accessible should you want to use it for your own flavor of NAS OS, such as TrueNAS, Unraid, or maybe Xpenology. Yes, because TerraMaster has now switched to a 256 GB NAND Flash card (3rd photo above) for the TOS bootloader. This is also replaceable, but you can also simply add a USB bootloader, access the BIOS, and tell the F4-425 Pro to boot from that instead of the Flash card. Unlike earlier iterations of TerraMaster NAS, you don't have to tear this down any further than the four screws on the outer shell in order to be able to access and manage the memory, NVMe slots, and USB bootloader. However, if you need to access the NAND Flash card or CMOS battery, then eight more screws (four on each side) need to be removed in order to take off the rear panel with the 120mm fan, and then the motherboard can be lifted off and removed from the SATA connector PCB. There's also no risk of threading the screw holes, because the four that hold the shell in place are metal on metal, while the screws that hold the rear panel on do screw into plastic. Either way, like last time when I reviewed the F4-425 plus, I was just happier to see larger screws being used. Overall, it follows some great improvements in build quality from the 2024 series and earlier. Setup BIOS The F4-425 Pro includes an Aptio BIOS from American Megatrends [1, 2], and you can setup pretty much everything here including the boot order, which is locked to the UEFI OS, however above that choice you can enable or disable booting to the USB bootloader so this would still allow you to switch to a USB stick with an alternative bootloader and boot from it, or disable it to instead always start from the first disk with an OS installed on it. Initial Setup Setup is roughly the same as the F4-425 Plus, along with the new TOS 7 setup dialogs, so there will be no surprises here. Upon connecting to the LAN and booting up, the F4-425 Pro can be reached by navigating to http://tnas.local. If that doesn't work, you can use the local address assigned via DHCP, which you can find using the TNAS PC desktop application, which is essentially a TerraMaster NAS finder. The setup process is pretty straightforward, through a wizard, and in full below: TOS 7 Initialization As you can see, TOS 7 received a new coat of paint, and the initialization requires fewer interactions. Happily, TOS no longer decides to throw all disks into the same Storage Pool; 2.5-inch HDDs are allocated into Storage Pool 1. This is because two of the HDDs are allocated to hold system files. Previously (with TOS 5 and 6), if you pre-installed HDDs and SSDs, they were all placed into Storage Pool 1, even if you did not select the SSDs for inclusion during the onboarding. TOS 7 Setup On first boot, there is a tutorial and some steps to take to harden the TNAS (or not), which includes an immediate update from TOS 7.0.0616 to 7.0.0706, of which the changelog screenshot is also included in the above gallery. It must be noted that the Security Advisor still contains (in my opinion) a pretty major bug in that if you enable SPC and then do the required rebooting, the Security Advisor still says that SPC is disabled. TerraMaster provided the following statement about it: It is disappointing that TOS 7 has been in beta since December, and this OOBE issue is still there. Shutdown option has moved Instead of a Taskbar option to manage the NAS, all of these options have been moved to the Control Panel, initially I did not see it and my contact had to show me how to power off the F4-425 Pro. To logout, reboot or power off you can find those controls at the top right of the Control Panel. It is also possible to power off through the TNAS mobile app beta. Storage setup Above, you can see the steps I took to create the Storage Pools and Volumes. I made a second Storage Pool using TRAID on two 4TB MP44Q SSDs (which, in this instance, is similar to RAID 5), and finally, I added the 250GB 970 Evo Plus drive as Hyper Cache on Storage Pool 1 in Balanced mode. Registering If you decide not to lock down the F4-425 Pro in Security Isolation Mode (blocking all external connections), then you could set up a TNAS device ID through the Remote Access setting in the Control Panel (which must be unique). This works in combination with an online TerraMaster account. TOS 7 TNAS Online Creating a TerraMaster account and linking the device online activates the warranty when you provide proof of purchase and the serial number, but it also gives you access through the TNAS mobile app, which allows you to complete certain operationsб including powering off and restarting the NAS remotely. A TNAS mobile update is required to gain access through TOS 7, and this is provided on the TerraMaster website, as it is not yet on Google Play. The app is evolving all the time and has made leaps and bounds since I first started reviewing TerraMaster devices almost three years ago. It is not quite there yet if you are comparing the likes of Synology, which, sadly, a lot of users online do all the time. OpenClaw setup One of the main selling points of the new F4-425 Pro is the inclusion of OpenClaw, with TerraMaster claiming that it is "powered by the world's first AI-native TOS 7 OS, supporting local-first smart workflows and independent data control." However, I immediately ran into problems trying to enable OpenClaw. After waiting 20 minutes at the "Enabling" message of the OpenClaw app following installation, I decided to do some searching online and discovered that it couldn't complete the installation process due to SPC being enabled, which is something TOS 7 immediately recommends to be enabled on first boot. SPC for NAS (TOS 7) is basically the same principle as UAC in Windows; it blocks executables from being launched by non-Super Users. After reaching out to my contact about these issues, I received the following response: Anyway, this only became clear when I closed the OpenClaw app screen and clicked on the OpenClaw icon in the taskbar; that is when I saw the message about disabling SPC. I think, due to the fact that this is a requirement, this should be a prompt during the installation process, not when closing the App Market and then trying to launch OpenClaw. There's also no 'Getting started' guide for people like me who have never used OpenClaw. I tried to add an LLM and discovered the tutorial led nowhere. That's when I started looking around the official TerraMaster forums, and I found a guide that helpfully explains that you won't get anywhere with OpenClaw unless you have a paid plan, which is disappointing because I imagined there would be an option to use a local LLM as I do in SubtitleEdit with Whisper-XXL. In addition, with the marketing imagery on the official site, it says that the OpenClaw feature is "all processed 100% locally for absolute privacy." which led me to believe that I could install a local LLM, not one that required paid tokens. In any case, TerraMaster does not provide guidance for this new feature, which was also a selling point of the F4-425 Pro! My contact also provided clarification about the above points I raised with TerraMaster Since it is not in the scope of the review to add paid services, I'll leave that to the people who are more qualified with OpenClaw. F4-425 Pro Surveillance App TOS also comes with a Surveillance app, which is not installed by default; it can be found in the App Market recommended section. In addition, after installing, it doesn't drop a shortcut on the Desktop or top taskbar, but you can "Send to Desktop" from the App Market listing for the app for a quick way to open it. Adding my Reolink POE doorbell camera was painless. TerraMaster doesn't appear to have a repository of preconfigured cameras; instead, the camera must be added using ONVIF or RTSP. No mobile Surveillance app TerraMaster still doesn't have a dedicated Surveillance app, although from searching online, Surveillance can be used and managed through the TNAS mobile app. I tried this with the updated TNAS mobile app beta in combination with TOS 7 and got a message that Surveillance was "Only accessible through web browser," so I reckon this must be limited to the stable versions of TOS 6 and the mobile app. More quirks In addition, whenever I minimized the Live View window in the browser Surveillance app, the feed appeared to switch to the Low-bandwidth stream, and there was no way to get the High-quality stream back. To get the High-quality stream back, I had to close Live View and then reopen it. Benchmarking A pretty cool feature of the TOS 7 is that it allows you to install directly to the NVMe M.2 SSD. In order to do that, you would have to leave out any HDDs during initialization, and even then, the system partitions are always written to two HDDs when they are eventually added. With three NVMe slots, this also gives an interesting scenario where you could build a TRAID storage Pool for installing all your apps and Docker on, and keep the third for SSD cache on the HDD pool. Limitless options! SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 A CrystalDiskMark test on a mapped network drive from within a Windows 11 25H2 PC (image above) connected over a 5 GbE hub was well within acceptable ranges. Although the read result on SATA was a little less than with the F4-425 Plus, for some reason, while writes were generally better. SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 I also ran the NAS Performance tester, which tests the link speed performance. As you can see, it pretty much maxes out the 5GbE connection. Of course, you can also opt to bond the two 5 GbE connections for a bit more umph, but I didn't do that. TOS 7, which, as of testing, is still in Beta, comes with an App Center that has a bunch of handy programs you can install right off the bat, such as Emby, Plex, Docker, as well as in-house Backup and Surveillance solutions. As you can imagine, any media streaming services you would want to host off the F4-425 Pro will work great, thanks to the Intel Core N350 CPU and its 16 GB of DDR5 memory. Accessing from mobile is only possible if Security Isolation Mode is disabled, which can put your NAS at risk from external sources, so there was no way to access it from the TNAS Mobile app. It's also quiet. I had this sat next to my computer on my work desk for the past week, and I did wonder if the noise I was accustomed to with NAS devices would annoy me, but all I could hear was a soft whirring of the rear fan (which was a little annoying) when the disks were not actively copying or reading data. Conclusion So what have I learned? Unfortunately, this release raises a few important questions and concerns that I feel haven't been adequately addressed. What I didn't like Our variant shipped with TOS 7 beta, and it's advised not to use it in a production environment. I feel that's a bit limiting on an $800 device. The mobile app is also still in beta and does not support some of the first-party apps, like Surveillance, and it still has quite a few bugs. I am a bit confused about the OpenClaw marketing along with the F4-425 Pro. I feel like that if it's going to be a main selling point, then offer official guidance on how to get started with it. TerraMaster recommends enabling SPC, but then markets the NAS for use with OpenClaw, which requires disabling SPC to be able to use it, opening up genuine security concerns for the NAS; and that's before you get into the security concerns of OpenClaw itself. Of course, the above issues won't be a problem if you decide to install something else on it, or even go back to the stable TOS 6. I wish TerraMaster had just given TOS 7 as opt-in rather than shipping with it. TOS 7 has been available as a preview since December 2025 (so well before my last TerraMaster review), and according to a thread on Reddit where a user shared a screenshot from the TerraMaster Facebook page, it is scheduled to launch today, June 23, but there's nothing about that in the TerraMaster news blog. My contact confirmed over email that TOS 7 exits beta today. The rubber feet also deserve a mention as they continue to be a problem, with them coming unstuck the moment you shift the F4-425 Pro anywhere on your desk. What I liked What it comes down to, though, aside from what I already mentioned, you are still getting a quality, affordable device here, so recommending it will depend on the individual's use case. If you're just looking for a relatively small NAS device to manage virtual machines on, backup your files, and take care of your home theater streaming, then it is a great device that will certainly futureproof you for some time. It provides good performance, takes up little space, and is, on the whole, very quiet. Four bays afford proper redundancy using TRAID or RAID 5, and you can even expand on storage capacity by adding the 2-bay D5, or 4-bay D8 Hybrid DAS over a USB 3.2 (10Gbps) link. Considering the 2024 releases were more about power, with the likes of an Intel Core i5-1235U high-end laptop CPU under the hood, I asked my contact last time if we could expect more of the same in higher-end models and was told: It makes a lot of sense to use Intel's N350 chip inside a NAS; it is more than capable of doing what the F4-425 Pro is intended for, media streaming and backup. The only downside is still the clear lack of community and even staff support on the official forums. In the past, I have had topics go unanswered for days, or there would be generic-type "we've noted this and passed it onto our developer team" type responses. Along with the other things I mentioned, it all ends up costing it a couple of points. If you are comfortable with the command line, Docker, and setting up TrueNAS or Unraid, you'll be fine. You can do great things with this hardware. In TOS, the apps are a bit lacking, and things don't always work as expected.\ AI NAS?! What has become clear to me this year is that we are going to start seeing all kinds of "AI NAS" come to market, and while that might be good for us consumers, be diligent and research these claims. Although the F4-425 Pro technically comes with AI, it is really using a cloud service that is externally sourced off-device through the third party OpenClaw app. My colleague did review a newcomer to the NAS space earlier this year, and it includes a local AI assistant inside the Zettlab D4 NAS, and they do not even use AI in the product name, check out Chris' review here. Where to buy and a discount coupon However, it does not change the fact that this is truly a great entry-level home media-class NAS that you can buy right now. TerraMaster is having a 20% off launch discount, plus you can also still apply our unique 10% off coupon on checkout, which only works on the official website. So here is a breakdown of the pricing that is only valid on the official TerraMaster website. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $575.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $503.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £525.59 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £460.79 Use NEOWIN coupon code during checkout for 10% discount Over on Amazon US and UK, the F4-425 Pro also gets a 20% launch discount, but here, the above 10% coupon cannot be applied. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for $639.99 at Amazon US (was $799.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for $559.99 at Amazon US (was $699.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for £583.99 at Amazon UK (was £729.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for £511.99 at Amazon UK (was £639.99) As an Amazon Associate, when you purchase through links on our site, we earn from qualifying purchases.
    • I used to use Google assistant, not on the phone i have now, but about 7 years ago, then I decided it did not really do anything for me. Because i had Echo units over the house I added Alexa to the phone to control stuff and that is how it is now. Not the new Alexa+, as that is not really available in the U.K yet apart from on new units and to be honest, not interested in it. I went though the stage years ago of using voice to do text and call people, quicker to do it using my hands. I had a muck about with Siri on my Mac when I first got it, but not having a microphone permanently plugged in makes it a pain. I know it can be used by text. Siri like Apple AI is disabled on my Mac and will stay disabled.
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