I discovered a serious BIOS bug (no post or display) on ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe...

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Grand Master

inactive

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...with a XFX Radeon 5670 512MB GPU. which renders the computer unusable (unless you got a spare GPU that happens to work on ASUS newer/newest BIOS's for the board).

 

but in short... v1103 BIOS works where as v1303 (and neither does v1409(newest BIOS available but it's a BETA)), which is newest stable BIOS available, does not. my guess is the bug was probably introduced on v1205 which is the only other BIOS available between those two versions and my guess is that was when the bug was introduced as it shows "Enhance PCI / PCIE compatibility" on v1205. so while I can't confirm the v1205 thing, I can confirm v1103 works where as v1303 does not and v1205 is the only BIOS available between those two versions. so that means the bug first appeared on v1205 or v1303.

 

a bit more info...

 

but looking around online it appears that issue hit others to in the past but people seem to write it off as a GPU failure or bad BIOS flash or some other random hardware issue but my test confirms it's a ASUS motherboard BIOS issue.

 

because at first the computer was fine on a old BIOS I had many years ago but went to update it with the Radeon 5670 GPU in the PCI-E slot like normal and the flash appeared to go fine but upon a reboot there was no post/display (which symptoms mimmick a bad BIOS flash or no BIOS on the motherboard because it reacts the exact same way if you remove the BIOS chip and power up the computer) which made me think the BIOS flash was bad so then I ordered a BIOS chip on Ebay, which came with the newest available BIOS for it which is v1409, and putting that into the computer and booting up still has the same issue and I started playing with things a bit and removed the GPU and powered it up and then got a '1 long beep, 3 short beeps' which seems to be GPU or RAM related from a quick look online. so I then decided to install my older Geforce 7900GT into the PCI-E slot and *BAM* the computer came back to life and at this point I was using the new BIOS chip which had v1409 on it, and figured if that worked, I was thinking there was a good chance my BIOS flash on the original chip actually worked. so I put the original BIOS chip back in there and sure enough it was on v1303. but it took me a while to start piecing together that the BIOS itself could be the culprit as I thought to myself, "what's the odds of the GPU dying RIGHT AFTER a BIOS flash of the motherboard?", which got me thinking to try flashing back to a older BIOS version and then I did that using same method (i.e. ALT+F2 and which leads from floppy or CD drive(I loaded A8N32SLI.ROM from CD-RW disc)) with the Geforce 7900GT still in there and after that flashed and I checked to make sure it was on v1103, I reset the BIOS to default settings, saved it, then powered off.  then I installed the Radeon 5670 card and *BAM* it came back to life as the computer would post and there is now display and I can use the computer like normal again.

 

here is the general BIOS page for the board in question... https://www.asus.com/supportonly/A8N32-SLI Deluxe/HelpDesk_BIOS/

 

but I guess the lesson I learned here... as a general guideline, DO NOT update a motherboards BIOS unless there is a specific fix you need in a newer BIOS, otherwise you run the risk of introducing serious issues like I discovered here. but I can't believe a serious issue like this would slip by ASUS.

 

I know that board is pretty old but I thought this info is worth posting just in case someone else stumbles into my issue etc. I had that ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe board since March 2006 but retired it in May 2012 with a newer motherboard/CPU/RAM swap and then found a quality cheap PSU (Seasonic 430watt) recently for only $21.xx on Ebay as it was too hard to pass up as it's a good backup computer to my main PC for basic usage etc. I just installed the board into a old Alienware computer I had since 2001 as it only had a 1.2Ghz Athlon CPU which is dead slow as attempting to load any website really taxes the CPU (100% CPU most of the time etc) and takes forever to load etc. so going from that to my A8N32-SLI board was a huge difference. hell, I even found 4GB of RAM (4x 1GB DDR 400Mhz) used on Ebay for only $10.95 which back around 2012 I was trying to upgrade the RAM at the time but it was still a arm-and-a-leg as for not much more I could swap out my motherboard/CPU/RAM which is how I ended up with my current main PC (before ordering that 4GB of RAM, the board had 2GB of RAM (4x 512MB)). but after seeing how 4GB of RAM (used) was only $10.95 on Ebay recently, it was too hard to pass up and gives a bit more life to that ageing computer, especially with Linux Mint v19.1 Xfce 64bit on it which is already light on resources. then I ran the Memtest86+ on it and that passed so all is good. but I noticed with this ASUS A8N32-SLI board in order to use it's full 4GB of RAM (which is the MAX the motherboard supports) you have to enable a setting in the BIOS called 'Hardware Memory Hole' for it to see the full 4GB as by default, with default BIOS settings, it only sees 3GB.

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted

That's a story of typical fun with mobos in the tech world.

 

But, your general purpose take-away from it is a personal insight that is too specific to that experience.

 

In general, ALWAYS use the latest BIOS and ignore the BETA designation, just always use the latest.

 

It always happens that money stops getting allocated to old mobos and the manufacturer often ends up with a BETA as the lastest patch level from many years ago. It is just  going to be the best thing available until the end of the universe at that point.

 

The prescription to only update a BIOS if needed is just DEAD WRONG! A new BIOS could have hundreds of patches that nobody bothers to list in a readme file. Time is money and most changes don't get listed, particularly on an update to a mobo a year after the sales figures hit zero...

 

That is a really old motherboard so it might be worth hunting down beta level or user patched chipset drivers in old enthusiast forums. 

 

In your specific case you are probably better off with 1409 and whatever video card works. Keep in mind that newer BIOS also apply patch updates to the Microcode inside the CPU chip, always a good thing...

 

 

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Grand Master

Circaflex

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DevTech said:

In general, ALWAYS use the latest BIOS and ignore the BETA designation, just always use the latest.

 

100% I am going to disagree with this statement, especially when it comes to a BIOS. And no, you don't need to provide me with some long winded, drawn out response full of nonsense.

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Grand Master

inactive

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DevTech said:

In general, ALWAYS use the latest BIOS and ignore the BETA designation, just always use the latest.

 

Given issues can turn up, the potential negative (stuff similar to my situation and the like) outweighs the positive. because while my situation might not be typical, I am sure random quirks can turn up that can mess with someone's reliability/stability of the computer which is not a good thing and can be a show stopper like it was in my case as if I did not have that alternative GPU to try, the system would be useless with that newer BIOS.

 

as the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I think that's some good advice to live by when it comes to serious stuff like a motherboards BIOS.

 

so while some might argue in favor of upgrading the BIOS, i think one can definitely make a case against it to. so I don't think it's ALWAYS best to upgrade a BIOS unless the risk of any show stopper issues turning up is very slim and there is some specific benefit one needs by upgrading. but what I experienced would be a show stopper bug since without a alternate GPU, that BIOS 'update' would have basically bricked the setup as is.

 

p.s. my main computer I am using the newest BIOS without issue. but given my experience here, I am not going to be in a rush to install BIOS updates on future motherboards I get, especially if the thing is not under warranty.

 

3 hours ago, DevTech said:

In your specific case you are probably better off with 1409 and whatever video card works. Keep in mind that newer BIOS also apply patch updates to the Microcode inside the CPU chip, always a good thing...

 

Maybe, but losing the noticeably better GPU over it is probably not worth the likely minor updates in the BIOS compared to the version I am already using.

 

so while I realize they might not list every little detail on the BIOS changes, you would think they would list anything important there and given what is listed there it's little to nothing that's worth it especially if less hardware works on it and given the major bug in my case which could completely stop someone from using the board.

 

the BIOS I am using on the board, while not the newest, it's close enough given the changes they list in the newer revisions don't seem like much.

 

also, ain't those CPU microcode updates generally done on the OS level and not in the BIOS?

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, LostCat said:

I always use the latest UEFI build.  I had issues with one (or maybe it was BIOS back then) once...a long time ago.

Well, technology has been bad back then ;)  

Grand Master

nekrosoft13

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Circaflex said:

100% I am going to disagree with this statement, especially when it comes to a BIOS. And no, you don't need to provide me with some long winded, drawn out response full of nonsense.

i agree with the devtech statement. BIOS is never a final product, BETA BIOS is nothing to worry about.

 

Its all in similar state.

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted

Reminds me of my saying:

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

Unless there is a fix that you want, there is no reason to upgrade.

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Circaflex said:

100% I am going to disagree with this statement, especially when it comes to a BIOS. And no, you don't need to provide me with some long winded, drawn out response full of nonsense.

You just have a poor mental model of the processes involved.

 

There is no warm and fuzzy place where mobo manufacturers give a crap about a previous gen product that isn't selling anymore.

 

Very often the last BIOS that was released was designated beta and had all the latest fixes in it and then blam, there was no budget to even go and even just rename it from beta.

 

Similarly the hundreds of fixes that go into each BIOS, nobody has time to type up, so a few major highlights are listed. All sorts of interactions with chipset device drivers etc are improved and you would never know about it from the readme, and they almost never mention microcode patches...

 

The BIOS has a major effect on the hardware of the system and denying yourself the benefit of the latest fixes over some silly semantics is just plain mule headed stubborn lifting of language over reality to an absurd degree.

 

Grand Master

nekrosoft13

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Reminds me of my saying:

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

Unless there is a fix that you want, there is no reason to upgrade.

I always upgrade my bios on everything, not every "fix" is listed.

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Reminds me of my saying:

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

Unless there is a fix that you want, there is no reason to upgrade.

That is plain wrong, but not because it's wrong.

 

One hard thing in life is figuring out where the blind spots are, knowing what you don't know and BIOS patches are one giant black hole in people's awareness. 

 

The situation is not "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but with a BIOS, it is "it is really broke at a low level that you can't see and isn't documented anywhere and you think it ain't broke and don't want to fix it, but fix it, you must says Yoda"

 

But my saying isn't short and catchy....

 

Grand Master

Circaflex

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, DevTech said:

You just have a poor mental model of the processes involved.

 

There is no warm and fuzzy place where mobo manufacturers give a crap about a previous gen product that isn't selling anymore.

 

Very often the last BIOS that was released was designated beta and had all the latest fixes in it and then blam, there was no budget to even go and even just rename it from beta.

 

Similarly the hundreds of fixes that go into each BIOS, nobody has time to type up, so a few major highlights are listed. All sorts of interactions with chipset device drivers etc are improved and you would never know about it from the readme, and they almost never mention microcode patches...

 

The BIOS has a major effect on the hardware of the system and denying yourself the benefit of the latest fixes over some silly semantics is just plain mule headed stubborn lifting of language over reality to an absurd degree.

 

yawn...

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DevTech said:

That is plain wrong, but not because it's wrong.

 

One hard thing in life is figuring out where the blind spots are, knowing what you don't know and BIOS patches are one giant black hole in people's awareness. 

 

The situation is not "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but with a BIOS, it is "it is really broke at a low level that you can't see and isn't documented anywhere and you think it ain't broke and don't want to fix it, but fix it, you must says Yoda"

 

But my saying isn't short and catchy....

 

Well, I've been going with that philosophy since college. When a professor told us that. That was back in ~2003. 15 years later, I'm still going strong.

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

Well, I've been going with that philosophy since college. When a professor told us that. That was back in ~2003. 15 years later, I'm still going strong.

Professor of BIOS?

 

And in any case not a professor of Engineering or he must have been about 120 years old, hanging on to tenure and his last breath at the same time!

 

Kaizen has dominated thinking for decades now!

 

Kaizen:

 

A: If it ain't broke, fix it and make it better.

B: Goto A:

 

That simple principle gave the Japanese auto industry the power to dominate and kill the U.S. Auto Industry until American engineers wised up and copied the Japanese system...

 

 

 

Grand Master

DevTech

Posted
Posted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

 

Kaizen (改善) is the Japanese word for "improvement". In business, kaizen refers to activities that continuously improve all functions and involve all employees from the CEO to the assembly line workers. It also applies to processes, such as purchasing and logistics, that cross organizational boundaries into the supply chain.[1] It has been applied in healthcare,[2] psychotherapy,[3] life-coaching, government, and banking.

 

By improving standardized programmes and processes, kaizen aims to eliminate waste (see lean manufacturing). Kaizen was first practiced in Japanese businesses after World War II, influenced in part by American business and quality-management teachers, and most notably as part of The Toyota Way. It has since spread throughout the world and has been applied to environments outside business and productivity.[4]

 

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted

Professor, teacher. Teach you stuff.

 

Yeah to the above, BUT updating the BIOS when it first comes out, is a bad idea...

Grand Master

Jim K Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted
28 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Professor, teacher. Teach you stuff.

 

Yeah to the above, BUT updating the BIOS when it first comes out, is a bad idea...

Why is it a "bad idea" ?  

 

While I used to be of the mindset that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" in the 90s and 00s ... now I'm a firm believer of keeping the BIOS up to date....for all the reasons DevTech has mentioned.

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Jim K said:

Why is it a "bad idea" ?  

 

While I used to be of the mindset that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" in the 90s and 00s ... in this day I'm a firm believer of keeping the BIOS up to date....for all the reasons DevTech has mentioned.

I had college in ~2003. (XP age) Back then, it was not the norm to update your BIOS.

 

Edit: I never had a need for a BIOS update...

Grand Master

spaceelf

Posted
Posted (edited)

Back in the nforce days it was pretty common for the release BIOS to have some issues, especially reporting the heat about ten degrees too high.

 

Ryzen UEFI updates do include microcode that improve the platform in general.

 

I can't really speak for Intel....only have one Intel box.

Grand Master

n_K

Posted
Posted (edited)

How funny, I had the same issue back when I first got a skylake system and got my replacement motherboard, I can't remember the exact BIOS option but one option just caused it to fail to display any graphics, I reset the BIOS configuration and narrowed it down to the configuration option and didn't change that one (I can't remember what it was because it was years ago), but like yours it is an ASUS. I think the manual had text for the option along the line of don't enable this option unless you absolutely must, but I can't remember.

Mentor

Tidosho

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, DevTech said:

The BIOS has a major effect on the hardware of the system and denying yourself the benefit of the latest fixes over some silly semantics is just plain mule headed stubborn lifting of language over reality to an absurd degree.

 

I agree, especially with modern systems and the Spectre/Meltdown exploits. The first thing I did with my servers when the BIOS fixes for Spectre were released? I booted into my IPMI and flashed all the new firmware. The system is now secure, and there were even other performance fixes for the IPMI and Intel ME among other things. There was no way in hell I was leaving them unpatched when they're web facing.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it doesn't always apply, it isn't a blanket statement, it depends on the context. The world of IT is risky. It doesn't matter whether I'm flashing a BIOS or working inside a UPS PSU with very high voltages, or a 4KW microwave oven (I'm a multi skilled engineer). There's risks to anything, you just have to assess both the situation, your skillset and confidence, and any backup plan if things don't go to plan. If you're not comfortable, or sure, find someone who is.

 

Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Modern systems have dual BIOS chips, or emergency USB force recovery, so it's easier than ever to put them right. And if the hardware's too old, scrap it and move on. If you're in IT you must have dosh :)

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Grand Master

nekrosoft13

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

Reminds me of my saying:

 

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

Unless there is a fix that you want, there is no reason to upgrade.

I will add this

 

if it ain't broke, companies would not be releasing bios/firmware updates....

 

they don't just sit around and think to themself, i'm so bored today, lets release 1.02 bios, just because.

Grand Master

Mindovermaster Global Moderator

Posted
  • Global Moderator
Posted
1 minute ago, nekrosoft13 said:

they don't just sit around and think to themself, i'm so bored today, lets release 1.02 bios, just because.

Really? :whistle:

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