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41 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

AFAIK no SATA controller supports multiple drives per controller...

There are ways you can connect multiple SATA ports to USB2/3, but you need a controller board for that.

 

Some controller cards can do that, but that's a different thing entirely.

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21 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

There are ways you can connect multiple SATA ports to USB2/3, but you need a controller board for that.

 

Some controller cards can do that, but that's a different thing entirely.

I meant same port/channel 😛 didn't have my coffee when I typed that, @DevTechknew what I meant.

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21 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

I meant same port/channel 😛 didn't have my coffee when I typed that, @DevTechknew what I meant.

Yeah.

 

I think early controller implementations copied some aspects of Master/Slave so that there was a small advantage to using every 2nd SATA port but no aspect of that was ever exposed to the user - always 1 port, 1 drive.

 

To the OP, if you somehow have more drives than ports then you can get SATA controller cards both PCI and PCIe bus to add SATA ports.

 

Alternatively, you can also buy PCIe cards to add M.2  NVMe drives, which come in 1 drive and 4 drive models. (But keep that one between us so we don't upset the Teddy Bear Police)

 

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15 minutes ago, DevTech said:

Alternatively, you can also buy PCIe cards to add M.2  NVMe drives, which come in 1 drive and 4 drive models. (But keep that one between us so we don't upset the Teddy Bear Police)

I've seen models with 2... But yeah...

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4 hours ago, Mindovermaster said:

I've seen models with 2... But yeah...

Actually responding to the other question jogged my memory a bit

 

The DUAL option is FAR more useful in retrofit of older mobos since their is usually a second PCIe x 16 slot but using the slot EITHER for GPU or NVMe makes both GPU slots switch to x8 due to shortage of PCIe lanes.

 

Running a PCIe 3.0 at x8 will NOT be a perf hit for GPU, so DUAL NVMe is a nice upgrade.

 

A more modern motherboard with a real x16 expansion slot would be needed for the 4 unit NVMe but of course a more modern mobo has 2 M.2 on the mobo already...

 

Some older server mobos have enough PCIe lanes but plugging a 4 unit NVMe into that would cause deep psychological scars for some people so we should keep that a secret just between us folks...

 

So in the end your suggestion of a DUAL NVMe is far more useful in a practical manner.

 

 

 

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Last few comments removed as this was going off topic.

 

With respect to the topic ... I'm not surely how adding a PCIe NMVe card would give the OP three additional SATA ports so he can "connect at least 3 drives." 

 

In my opinion this could have been answered easily.  One, it is one drive per SATA port.  Two, grab an internal 4x SATA PCIe card (which can be had for cheap).  Optionally the OP could get an external 4 bay drive and run it via USB (though this route would be more expensive).

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3 hours ago, Jim K said:

Last few comments removed as this was going off topic.

 

With respect to the topic ... I'm not surely how adding a PCIe NMVe card would give the OP three additional SATA ports so he can "connect at least 3 drives." 

 

In my opinion this could have been answered easily.  One, it is one drive per SATA port.  Two, grab an internal 4x SATA PCIe card (which can be had for cheap).  Optionally the OP could get an external 4 bay drive and run it via USB (though this route would be more expensive).

What on earth is confusing about a NVMe expansion card?

 

No different from plugging in a SATA controller card except a need to pay attention to PCIe lane counts.

 

A HUGE number of people in the hardware forums are having trouble understanding that in 2019, you can add a SATA SSD or a NVMe SSD and the costs are in the same ballpark, yet I repeatedly over and over and over in this forum get this negative attitude that somehow a NVMe drive is a complex solution that I should NOT be suggesting to anyone since SSD is "Good enough"

 

That is plain old Luddite ridiculous!

 

I was recently in a similar position to the OP where I had only a single M.2 slot on the mobo and I wanted to expand my SSD storage. So I ordered a NVMe card from Newegg for $8 and and a 512 gig NVMe drive, plugged the drive into the card and then the card into my unoccupied 2nd GPU slot and DONE!

 

Actually less work than internally mounting a SSD drive!

 

Super fast storage, about 5 TIMES FASTER, faster to get up and running and only $30 more expensive so why oh why do people have a mental block about this????

 

The OP was investigating complicated schemes of somehow multiplying SATA ports, and everyone doesn't blink an eyelash and his primary purpose is to upgrade to SSD so well in that case plugging int a SATA controller card is OK, but then when the logical next thing is up to be considered, it is portrayed as "complex", "not needed" etc etc.

 

Luddites, please go practice you horse and buggy skills and stop giving people crazy advice. It is 2019. Spend money on a SSD drive or spend money on a NVMe drive. Which one is going to do you better over the next few years? Unless you flat-out don't have PCIe lanes available, your money will get the best possible value by buying a NVMe drive.

 

And that is plain and simple just one easy answer. People in this forum can label it "complex" as many times as they want, but it is what it is and it's going to smell like a Rose no matter what you label it!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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52 minutes ago, DevTech said:

What on earth is confusing about a NVMe expansion card?

 

No different from plugging in a SATA controller card except a need to pay attention to PCIe lane counts.

 

A HUGE number of people in the hardware forums are having trouble understanding that in 2019, you can add a SATA SSD or a NVMe SSD and the costs are in the same ballpark, yet I repeatedly over and over and over in this forum get this negative attitude that somehow a NVMe drive is a complex solution that I should NOT be suggesting to anyone since SSD is "Good enough"

 

That is plain old Luddite ridiculous!

 

I was recently in a similar position to the OP where I had only a single M.2 slot on the mobo and I wanted to expand my SSD storage. So I ordered a NVMe card from Newegg for $8 and and a 512 gig NVMe drive, plugged the drive into the card and then the card into my unoccupied 2nd GPU slot and DONE!

 

Actually less work than internally mounting a SSD drive!

 

Super fast storage, about 5 TIMES FASTER, faster to get up and running and only $30 more expensive so why oh why do people have a mental block about this????

 

The OP was investigating complicated schemes of somehow multiplying SATA ports, and everyone doesn't blink an eyelash and his primary purpose is to upgrade to SSD so well in that case plugging int a SATA controller card is OK, but then when the logical next thing is up to be considered, it is portrayed as "complex", "not needed" etc etc.

 

Luddites, please go practice you horse and buggy skills and stop giving people crazy advice. It is 2019. Spend money on a SSD drive or spend money on a NVMe drive. Which one is going to do you better over the next few years? Unless you flat-out don't have PCIe lanes available, your money will get the best possible value by buying a NVMe drive.

 

And that is plain and simple just one easy answer. People in this forum can label it "complex" as many times as they want, but it is what it is and it's going to smell like a Rose no matter what you label it!

Nothing is confusing.  He asked about adding three drives to one SATA port.  You've convoluted the original question by interjecting nVME drives.

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3 hours ago, Jim K said:

Nothing is confusing.  He asked about adding three drives to one SATA port.  You've convoluted the original question by interjecting nVME drives.

That is strange reasoning indeed.

 

What he wants to do is add FAST FLASH based storage to his PC for GAMING. He simply did not know how to go about doing that.

 

There are TWO ways to accomplish that.

 

1. Add SATA Flash (SSD)

 

2. Add NVMe Flash (M.2)

 

I have pointed out literally the OBVIOUS 50% of the possible solution space.

 

To not do so,  is an abdication of any mandate to help people.

 

Three drives on a SATA port is complicated byzantine thinking and is convoluted. The opposite of convoluted is plugging in a NVMe drive that is FAST, MODERN, SIMPLE, CHEAP, FUTURE-PROOF and the most PRACTICAL solution that does NOT need any SATA ports.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@DevTechYour assuming he's adding NEW drives and not wanting to add EXISTING drives already in OP's possession, no where in the OP did he mention he's adding NEW drives.

 

ASSUMING he's adding new drives, yes, your solution would work with the NVMe add in card, ASSUMING it's existing drives in his/her possession a SATA III PCI/PCIe card would work best.

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4 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

@DevTechYour assuming he's adding NEW drives and not wanting to add EXISTING drives already in OP's possession, no where in the OP did he mention he's adding NEW drives.

 

ASSUMING he's adding new drives, yes, your solution would work with the NVMe add in card, ASSUMING it's existing drives in his/her possession a SATA III PCI/PCIe card would work best.

I agree completely with that with one tiny exception.

 

If I had a computer where I needed a performance boost and somebody pointed out a really nice tweak, I would certainly give it very strong consideration and if I liked it, I would re-purpose some of the existing equipment for other computers.

 

Many tech fans have multiple computers at home permitting a more flexible type of thinking. Many don't.

 

Making a suggestion that is logical and sensible is DUE DILIGENCE. If it is not used, the words are sitting there for somebody to GOOGLE and there has been ample evidence that this has happened and people have joined Neowin because they found useful stuff they didn't find ANYWHERE ELSE.

 

So this idea that YOUR preference for a solution (I don't mean you, specifically) is somehow insulted by alternate ideas seems both nuts and counter-productive to Neowin and the purpose of the forums in the long run.

 

And the "slapping yourself in the face thing" - really? It doesn't fit your otherwise excellent work here.

 

A wealth of ideas and concepts and suggestions can only benefit the entire community. Otherwise, any group always risks the trap of a Monoculture. And we all know even a bad idea sometimes sparks a good idea! Gosh, if you don't like an idea, just ignore the text and leave it for some future googler...

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Matthew S. said:

he mention he's adding NEW drives.

WHAT HE HAS SAID:

 

" I plan to convert to all SSD's"

 

"One will be for games so I will need the best speed out of it"

 

" I am adding 2 more for additional gaming as it's cheaper in the short run than upgrading my current ones"

 

It is my honest belief that my suggestion fits the needs of the OP PERFECTLY!

 

"I will need the best speed out of it" in my mind means NVMe. For other people it might mean other technologies, but my response is completely justified and the ANTI-NVMe crowd is weirdly well, just weird...

 

You might optimize on other criteria and that would also be a good suggestion, coming from you.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Matthew S. said:

Dev read the thread again.

Enough dude. You are just playing with words instead of helping anyone.

 

You are well aware that the OP has several threads going on at the same time and I quoted the pertinent info from the other thread as any responsible person would investigate.

 

As you know, he is now sensibly investigating adding a NVMe drive to his system which is EXACTLY what I would do and what I have actually DONE.

 

If you need help, I am always available. I don't take any of this personally. But I'm not going to respond to the silly posts being generated for whatever reason. What is needed and the steps to do it have been well documented.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, DevTech said:

Enough dude. You are just playing with words instead of helping anyone.

 

You are well aware that the OP has several threads going on at the same time and I quoted the pertinent info from the other thread as any responsible person would investigate.

 

As you know, he is now sensibly investigating adding a NVMe drive to his system which is EXACTLY what I would do and what I have actually DONE.

 

If you need help, I am always available. I don't take any of this personally. But I'm not going to respond to the silly posts being generated for whatever reason. What is needed and the steps to do it have been well documented.

 

 

 

There you go ASSUMING again, I in-fact DID NOT KNOW he had several threads regarding this very topic, it would be helpful information if your going to reference another thread to actually LINK IT.

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23 minutes ago, devnulllore said:

Sorry if they seemed to be multiple threads about the same thing but they were actually two different topics they just ended up being on the same topic. No matter close them both at this point.

Yeah, they were similar, but not the same... They were on two different subjects.

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The setup process is pretty straightforward, through a wizard, and in full below: TOS 7 Initialization As you can see, TOS 7 received a new coat of paint, and the initialization requires fewer interactions. Happily, TOS no longer decides to throw all disks into the same Storage Pool; 2.5-inch HDDs are allocated into Storage Pool 1. This is because two of the HDDs are allocated to hold system files. Previously (with TOS 5 and 6), if you pre-installed HDDs and SSDs, they were all placed into Storage Pool 1, even if you did not select the SSDs for inclusion during the onboarding. TOS 7 Setup On first boot, there is a tutorial and some steps to take to harden the TNAS (or not), which includes an immediate update from TOS 7.0.0616 to 7.0.0706, of which the changelog screenshot is also included in the above gallery. It must be noted that the Security Advisor still contains (in my opinion) a pretty major bug in that if you enable SPC and then do the required rebooting, the Security Advisor still says that SPC is disabled. TerraMaster provided the following statement about it: It is disappointing that TOS 7 has been in beta since December, and this OOBE issue is still there. Shutdown option has moved Instead of a Taskbar option to manage the NAS, all of these options have been moved to a "Start panel", initially I didn't see it and my contact had to show me how to power off the F4-425 Pro. To logout, reboot or power off you can find those controls at the top right of the Panel. It is also possible to power off through the TNAS mobile app beta. Storage setup Above, you can see the steps I took to create the Storage Pools and Volumes. I made a second Storage Pool using TRAID on two 4TB MP44Q SSDs (which, in this instance, is similar to RAID 5), and finally, I added the 250GB 970 Evo Plus drive as Hyper Cache on Storage Pool 1 in Balanced mode. Registering If you decide not to lock down the F4-425 Pro in Security Isolation Mode (blocking all external connections), then you could set up a TNAS device ID through the Remote Access setting in the Control Panel (which must be unique). This works in combination with an online TerraMaster account. TOS 7 TNAS Online Creating a TerraMaster account and linking the device online activates the warranty when you provide proof of purchase and the serial number, but it also gives you access through the TNAS mobile app, which allows you to complete certain operationsб including powering off and restarting the NAS remotely. A TNAS mobile update is required to gain access through TOS 7, and this is provided on the TerraMaster website, as it is not yet on Google Play. The app is evolving all the time and has made leaps and bounds since I first started reviewing TerraMaster devices almost three years ago. It is not quite there yet if you are comparing the likes of Synology, which, sadly, a lot of users online do all the time. OpenClaw setup One of the main selling points of the new F4-425 Pro is the inclusion of OpenClaw, with TerraMaster claiming that it is "powered by the world's first AI-native TOS 7 OS, supporting local-first smart workflows and independent data control." However, I immediately ran into problems trying to enable OpenClaw. After waiting 20 minutes at the "Enabling" message of the OpenClaw app following installation, I decided to do some searching online and discovered that it couldn't complete the installation process due to SPC being enabled, which is something TOS 7 immediately recommends to be enabled on first boot. SPC for NAS (TOS 7) is basically the same principle as UAC in Windows; it blocks executables from being launched by non-Super Users. After reaching out to my contact about these issues, I received the following response: Anyway, this only became clear when I closed the OpenClaw app screen and clicked on the OpenClaw icon in the taskbar; that is when I saw the message about disabling SPC. I think, due to the fact that this is a requirement, this should be a prompt during the installation process, not when closing the App Market and then trying to launch OpenClaw. There's also no 'Getting started' guide for people like me who have never used OpenClaw. I tried to add an LLM and discovered the tutorial led nowhere. That's when I started looking around the official TerraMaster forums, and I found a guide that helpfully explains that you won't get anywhere with OpenClaw unless you have a paid plan, which is disappointing because I imagined there would be an option to use a local LLM as I do in SubtitleEdit with Whisper-XXL. In addition, with the marketing imagery on the official site, it says that the OpenClaw feature is "all processed 100% locally for absolute privacy." which led me to believe that I could install a local LLM, not one that required paid tokens. In any case, TerraMaster does not provide guidance for this new feature, which was also a selling point of the F4-425 Pro! My contact also provided clarification about the above points I raised with TerraMaster Since it is not in the scope of the review to add paid services, I'll leave that to the people who are more qualified with OpenClaw. F4-425 Pro Surveillance App TOS also comes with a Surveillance app, which is not installed by default; it can be found in the App Market recommended section. In addition, after installing, it doesn't drop a shortcut on the Desktop or top taskbar, but you can "Send to Desktop" from the App Market listing for the app for a quick way to open it. Adding my Reolink POE doorbell camera was painless. TerraMaster doesn't appear to have a repository of preconfigured cameras; instead, the camera must be added using ONVIF or RTSP. No mobile Surveillance app TerraMaster still doesn't have a dedicated Surveillance app, although from searching online, Surveillance can be used and managed through the TNAS mobile app. I tried this with the updated TNAS mobile app beta in combination with TOS 7 and got a message that Surveillance was "Only accessible through web browser," so I reckon this must be limited to the stable versions of TOS 6 and the mobile app. More quirks In addition, whenever I minimized the Live View window in the browser Surveillance app, the feed appeared to switch to the Low-bandwidth stream, and there was no way to get the High-quality stream back. To get the High-quality stream back, I had to close Live View and then reopen it. Benchmarking A pretty cool feature of the TOS 7 is that it allows you to install directly to the NVMe M.2 SSD. In order to do that, you would have to leave out any HDDs during initialization, and even then, the system partitions are always written to two HDDs when they are eventually added. With three NVMe slots, this also gives an interesting scenario where you could build a TRAID storage Pool for installing all your apps and Docker on, and keep the third for SSD cache on the HDD pool. Limitless options! SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 A CrystalDiskMark test on a mapped network drive from within a Windows 11 25H2 PC (image above) connected over a 5 GbE hub was well within acceptable ranges. Although the read result on SATA was a little less than with the F4-425 Plus, for some reason, while writes were generally better. SATA PCIe 3.0 X1 I also ran the NAS Performance tester, which tests the link speed performance. As you can see, it pretty much maxes out the 5GbE connection. Of course, you can also opt to bond the two 5 GbE connections for a bit more umph, but I didn't do that. TOS 7, which, as of testing, is still in Beta, comes with an App Center that has a bunch of handy programs you can install right off the bat, such as Emby, Plex, Docker, as well as in-house Backup and Surveillance solutions. As you can imagine, any media streaming services you would want to host off the F4-425 Pro will work great, thanks to the Intel Core N350 CPU and its 16 GB of DDR5 memory. Accessing from mobile is only possible if Security Isolation Mode is disabled, which can put your NAS at risk from external sources, so there was no way to access it from the TNAS Mobile app. It's also quiet. I had this sat next to my computer on my work desk for the past week, and I did wonder if the noise I was accustomed to with NAS devices would annoy me, but all I could hear was a soft whirring of the rear fan (which was a little annoying) when the disks were not actively copying or reading data. Conclusion So what have I learned? Unfortunately, this release raises a few important questions and concerns that I feel haven't been adequately addressed. What I didn't like Our variant shipped with TOS 7 beta, and it's advised not to use it in a production environment. I feel that's a bit limiting on an $800 device. The mobile app is also still in beta and does not support some of the first-party apps, like Surveillance, and it still has quite a few bugs. I am a bit confused about the OpenClaw marketing along with the F4-425 Pro. I feel like that if it's going to be a main selling point, then offer official guidance on how to get started with it. TerraMaster recommends enabling SPC, but then markets the NAS for use with OpenClaw, which requires disabling SPC to be able to use it, opening up genuine security concerns for the NAS; and that's before you get into the security concerns of OpenClaw itself. Of course, the above issues won't be a problem if you decide to install something else on it, or even go back to the stable TOS 6. I wish TerraMaster had just given TOS 7 as opt-in rather than shipping with it. TOS 7 has been available as a preview since December 2025 (so well before my last TerraMaster review), and according to a thread on Reddit where a user shared a screenshot from the TerraMaster Facebook page, it is scheduled to launch today, June 23, but there's nothing about that in the TerraMaster news blog. My contact confirmed over email that TOS 7 exits beta today. The rubber feet also deserve a mention as they continue to be a problem, with them coming unstuck the moment you shift the F4-425 Pro anywhere on your desk. What I liked What it comes down to, though, aside from what I already mentioned, you are still getting a quality, affordable device here, so recommending it will depend on the individual's use case. If you're just looking for a relatively small NAS device to manage virtual machines on, backup your files, and take care of your home theater streaming, then it is a great device that will certainly futureproof you for some time. It provides good performance, takes up little space, and is, on the whole, very quiet. Four bays afford proper redundancy using TRAID or RAID 5, and you can even expand on storage capacity by adding the 2-bay D5, or 4-bay D8 Hybrid DAS over a USB 3.2 (10Gbps) link. Considering the 2024 releases were more about power, with the likes of an Intel Core i5-1235U high-end laptop CPU under the hood, I asked my contact last time if we could expect more of the same in higher-end models and was told: It makes a lot of sense to use Intel's N350 chip inside a NAS; it is more than capable of doing what the F4-425 Pro is intended for, media streaming and backup. The only downside is still the clear lack of community and even staff support on the official forums. In the past, I have had topics go unanswered for days, or there would be generic-type "we've noted this and passed it onto our developer team" type responses. Along with the other things I mentioned, it all ends up costing it a couple of points. If you are comfortable with the command line, Docker, and setting up TrueNAS or Unraid, you'll be fine. You can do great things with this hardware. In TOS, the apps are a bit lacking, and things don't always work as expected.\ AI NAS?! What has become clear to me this year is that we are going to start seeing all kinds of "AI NAS" come to market, and while that might be good for us consumers, be diligent and research these claims. Although the F4-425 Pro technically comes with AI, it is really using a cloud service that is externally sourced off-device through the third party OpenClaw app. My colleague did review a newcomer to the NAS space earlier this year, and it includes a local AI assistant inside the Zettlab D4 NAS, and they do not even use AI in the product name, check out Chris' review here. Where to buy and a discount coupon However, it does not change the fact that this is truly a great entry-level home media-class NAS that you can buy right now. TerraMaster is having a 20% off launch discount, plus you can also still apply our unique 10% off coupon on checkout, which only works on the official website. So here is a breakdown of the pricing that is only valid on the official TerraMaster website. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $575.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = $503.99 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £525.59 TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) + 20% discount + 10% coupon = £460.79 Use NEOWIN coupon code during checkout for 10% discount Over on Amazon US and UK, the F4-425 Pro also gets a 20% launch discount, but here, the above 10% coupon cannot be applied. TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for $639.99 at Amazon US (was $799.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for $559.99 at Amazon US (was $699.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N350) for £583.99 at Amazon UK (was £729.99) TerraMaster F4-425 Pro (N305) for £511.99 at Amazon UK (was £639.99) As an Amazon Associate, when you purchase through links on our site, we earn from qualifying purchases.
    • well you can add a GPU for around $500, that's still around the price of Steam Machine but overall significantly better in performance.
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