Microsoft should stop with this charade and make Windows 11 a paid upgrade

[Gotenks98]

Just now, adrynalyne said:

They aren’t forcing bitlocker on anyone. 

We don't know that yet.

[adrynalyne]

1 minute ago, Gotenks98 said:

We don't know that yet.

I’ll bet you 100 bucks via PayPal that they won’t. Wanna wager? 🙂

[Gotenks98]

11 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

I’ll bet you 100 bucks via PayPal that they won’t. Wanna wager? 🙂

Then why require TPM then if you not going to use bitlocker? If I had the money I would make that bet. I have kids and they take up all the money.

[George P Global Moderator]

TPM isn't used just for bitlocker.   I think people forget or don't know.   MS will post this in a blog at some point but other things like Windows Hello also use TPM.    There could be other security related features that take advantage of TPM.   Just wait and see what they say.  With all the noise being made about TPM they'll have to address it for sure.

[+Batfink Subscriber²]

My difficulty is that I have an old PC but it still works well and runs Windows 10 fine, I can still game in 1080p, I can still do everything I need to do on the internet and with MS Office.  I don't have a TPM module of any kind so Windows 11 is a no go for me.  

 

I would have preferred to stay on Windows 7 for another decade but it looks like I am left on Windows 10 and if they only support it for another year after Windows 11 comes around, I will either have to throw away a perfectly serviceable computer or put Linux on it.  

[Nick H. Supervisor]

Just now, Batfink said:

...I will either have to throw away a perfectly serviceable computer or put Linux on it.  

If it's serviceable couldn't you put a TPM chip on it? Although Linux is also a perfectly viable option in my mind.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Batfink said:

My difficulty is that I have an old PC but it still works well and runs Windows 10 fine, I can still game in 1080p, I can still do everything I need to do on the internet and with MS Office.  I don't have a TPM module of any kind so Windows 11 is a no go for me.  

 

I would have preferred to stay on Windows 7 for another decade but it looks like I am left on Windows 10 and if they only support it for another year after Windows 11 comes around, I will either have to throw away a perfectly serviceable computer or put Linux on it.  

Windows 10 will be supported til mid 2025

[+Batfink Subscriber²]

3 minutes ago, Nick H. said:

If it's serviceable couldn't you put a TPM chip on it? Although Linux is also a perfectly viable option in my mind.

It's an X58 motherboard without a TPM header unfortunately and no BIOS support.  Linux absolutely is... I just have some struggles gaming with it.

 

3 minutes ago, cacoe said:

Windows 10 will be supported til mid 2025

That is good news, thanks Cacoe!

[adrynalyne]

34 minutes ago, Gotenks98 said:

Then why require TPM then if you not going to use bitlocker? If I had the money I would make that bet. I have kids and they take up all the money.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/information-protection/tpm/tpm-fundamentals

 

Anything crypto related is sped up by offloading to hardware, vs software.

[George P Global Moderator]

 

They might allow 7th gen, as for me and my 6th gen and older CPUs, I doubt it.

[Mockingbird]

On 28/06/2021 at 04:54, Jim K said:

I'm holding off any real opinion until 11 is released with respect to system requirements as they can change between now and then.

 

However, I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other...are you implying that if it were a paid upgrade they would drop this TPM "requirement"?  

 

 

That is exactly what I am saying.

 

Microsoft already that with its permission, OEMs can ship Windows 11 PCs without TPM.

 

"Upon approval from Microsoft, OEM systems for special purpose commercial systems, custom order, and customer systems with a custom image are not required to ship with a TPM support enabled."

 

Furthermore, Microsoft also said that Windows 11 can run on virtual machines without meeting the hardware requirements.

 

"while Microsoft recommends that all virtualized instances of the Windows 11 follow the same minimum hardware requirements as described in Section 1.2, the Windows 11 does not apply the hardware-compliance check for virtualized instances either during setup or upgrade."

 

https://download.microsoft.com/download/7/8/8/788bf5ab-0751-4928-a22c-dffdc23c27f2/Minimum Hardware Requirements for Windows 11.pdf

[Nick H. Supervisor]

Quote

are you implying that if it were a paid upgrade they would drop this TPM "requirement"?  

 

4 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

That is exactly what I am saying.

I'm trying to think of how I can explain how wrong this idea is...I've literally sat here for at least 30 minutes trying several times to write up why this is wrong, but when the premise is this flimsy it makes any counter-argument difficult to put in to words. It's like trying to have a discussion with the argument being that the dinosaurs didn't exist. Where do you start?

 

I guess I'll start with a question. Could you please explain why you think that Microsoft would drop the TPM requirement if they charged money for the upgrade? I think you're going to say that by releasing the update for free they are losing out on money, and by forcing people to buy new hardware they will get money from the new licences. If that's the case, can you please provide me a breakdown of Microsoft's revenue at the moment, bearing in mind that Windows 11 isn't available yet and Windows 10 was offered as a free upgrade (i.e. used the same model being proposed for Windows 11)?

[Son_Of_Dad]

A large amount of public opinion revolves around Windows 11 'is this really an upgrade', 'what's the point' & 'I'm not going to pay them money to move the start menu'.

 

 

The majority only leapt for Windows 10 as they were lead to believe the start menu was essential to run a few applications. Windows 11 isn't giving them anything they require

[+Warwagon MVC]

Someone said something interesting to me last night. They said "Wouldn't it be funny if these people started switching to Apple products?" ... its a good question If you have all these people that don't have a supported computer and will have to go out and buy a new computer for for Windows 11 anyway. They may feel burned and switch to a Mac... but little do they know how Apple Burns,.

[adrynalyne]

8 minutes ago, warwagon said:

Someone said something interesting to me last night. They said "Wouldn't it be funny if these people started switching to Apple products?" ... its a good question If you have all these people that don't have a supported computer and will have to go out and buy a new computer for for Windows 11 anyway. They may feel burned and switch to a Mac... but little do they know how Apple Burns,.

Yeah. If they think the new changes are unreasonable, wait until they get a load of Apple. 

[+Warwagon MVC]

7 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Yeah. If they think the new changes are unreasonable, wait until they get a load of Apple. 

 

[+Warwagon MVC]

13 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Yeah. If they think the new changes are unreasonable, wait until they get a load of Apple. 

Had a customer back in 2011 buy a MacBook Pro and an iMac 2017 inch. By 2013 he was selling them to me at a VERY VERY VEY steep discount ($200 for a fully loaded 2011 27 inch i7 iMac) . ... he just said make an offer and I did...

 

Fast forward last month. They went to replace one of their 2 AIO windows machines, The new one came to my office but the fan sounded HORRIBLE .. so they returned it. 1 week later they informed me they got one of the new iMacs. I asked if it was the M1 he said "it was the newest they had"

 

So there may be a highly discounted M1 iMac in my future.

[cork1958]

On 28/06/2021 at 12:56, Batfink said:

My difficulty is that I have an old PC but it still works well and runs Windows 10 fine, I can still game in 1080p, I can still do everything I need to do on the internet and with MS Office.  I don't have a TPM module of any kind so Windows 11 is a no go for me.  

 

I would have preferred to stay on Windows 7 for another decade but it looks like I am left on Windows 10 and if they only support it for another year after Windows 11 comes around, I will either have to throw away a perfectly serviceable computer or put Linux on it.  

Same situation here with a couple old desktops. 1 has already been switched to Linux although it ran Windows 10 just fine and have been debating about doing the same with the other one. Linux is just so much easier to manage, update and maintain compared to Windows, IMO, that I have really begun to hate on Windows again. It took me a couple years to finally even begin to stomach Windows 10 and although I do some what like Windows 10, the whole Windows thing is just an irritation to me anymore.

 

On wife's computer right now and it's a relatively newer machine but haven't bothered to check if it can run Windows 11 yet. Have no real desire to even look either. Gotten frustrated enough on this thing that I've threatened to put Linux on it and she actually said ok a few days ago, but I haven't yet. 

 

As far as making people pay for the upgrade, I see that as ridiculous after last upgrade was free. People would surely complain about that.

[Mockingbird]

3 hours ago, Nick H. said:

 

I'm trying to think of how I can explain how wrong this idea is...I've literally sat here for at least 30 minutes trying several times to write up why this is wrong, but when the premise is this flimsy it makes any counter-argument difficult to put in to words. It's like trying to have a discussion with the argument being that the dinosaurs didn't exist. Where do you start?

 

I guess I'll start with a question. Could you please explain why you think that Microsoft would drop the TPM requirement if they charged money for the upgrade? I think you're going to say that by releasing the update for free they are losing out on money, and by forcing people to buy new hardware they will get money from the new licences. If that's the case, can you please provide me a breakdown of Microsoft's revenue at the moment, bearing in mind that Windows 11 isn't available yet and Windows 10 was offered as a free upgrade (i.e. used the same model being proposed for Windows 11)?

I am not an accountant.

[adrynalyne]

16 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

I am not an accountant.

That’s not an excuse to not do some homework before inventing a conspiracy theory you want others to buy into. 

[Mockingbird]

18 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

That’s not an excuse to not do some homework before inventing a conspiracy theory you want others to buy into. 

Do you want me to hire an accountant?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Mockingbird

[Nick H. Supervisor]

28 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

I am not an accountant.

I didn't say that you were. And neither am I, but the numbers are out there. From one site I have seen that Microsoft's revenue from operating systems is less than 10% of their total. It's not their money maker.

 

For people that use Windows, Windows 10 accounts for just under 80% of that usage. Windows 8/8.1 usage is just over 4.5%. A large reason for that migration is that the end user didn't need to do anything. The update was free, and in most cases if the computer ran Windows 8 it would run Windows 10. But for a moment let's assume that it hadn't been the case. Let's assume Microsoft had done what they are doing with Windows 11, and new hardware needed to be bought in order to run Windows 10. Do you think the marketshare would still be 80%?

The answer is that it wouldn't. And the reason is that for the average user, they don't care about being on the latest operating system. But there was a free update and they didn't need to do anything, so they updated. So now, when we take a look at Windows 11, let's think about what the average user is going to do. They are going to be offered an update for free, then they are going to be told that their computer doesn't support it. Are they going to go and buy a new computer? No, they are going to stick with their current computer because it is working perfectly fine on Windows 10 and it is still receiving security updates.

 

I'm willing to bet that Microsoft are well aware of this. They know that the adoption rate won't be as quick as it was with Windows 10 because of their TPM requirement, and they are going to be ok with that. Why are they going to be ok with that? Because they are looking ahead to when people choose to buy a new computer of their own free will, and that new computer will have Windows 11 installed, with the TPM installed and turned on. Why will they want that? For security, which if they are to be believed is their focus. It's a slow-burn tactic to improve overall security down the line.

 

Again, the TPM requirement being a tactic to get money from people is ludicrous.

[devHead]

On 26/06/2021 at 08:25, Mockingbird said:

I get it, Microsoft wants to make money.

 

This new system requirements to get people to buy new PCs is ridiculous.

 

Microsoft should drop this charade and make Windows 11 a paid upgrade.

I think you don't entirely understand the meaning of the word 'charade'.  In this context, it doesn't make sense.  Having higher system requirements isn't a charade, it's just more stringent requirements for security purposes. Plus, why would those requirements change if the OS was sold instead of being offered as a free upgrade? You have some real logic issues with your argument.

[adrynalyne]

33 minutes ago, Mockingbird said:

Do you want me to hire an accountant?

If a web search is too strenuous?  Sure, I guess?

[PGHammer]

On 26/06/2021 at 12:20, Mockingbird said:

1. Certified Windows 10 PCs are required to have TPM, but not necessary turned on be default.

 

2. Even if the processor has built in TPM, it doesn't mean that the motherboard supports the feature or that it can be turned on.

 

3. Even if TPM is present and can be turned on, it might be disabled by default, and the layman would have trouble turning it on.

 

 

To answer your comments, in order:

 

1.  TPM - in any form - originated in servers - not desktops.  (It is part of the same set of features that gave us EFI - and later, UEFI.)  Who brought it to desktops first?  It wasn't Microsoft - but Apple.

2.  TPM could be implemented in either hardware, or software.  (As I pointed out above, only servers, and Apple hardware, made it mandatory.)

3.  TPM was, in fact, heavily resisted and protested against - except for servers.  (Even Apple caught flack for insisting on TPM - and not just from the "Hackintosh" community.)  That is why it was not mandatory, and ALSO why it was disabled by default - which remains the case to today - outside of servers and Apple.

 

If you are handy with a screwdriver - and can read - you can swap in a motherboard/CPU combo that is Windows 11-ready - right now (once the parts arrive).  MicroCenter has several such bundles actually in stock at most locations; my own preference is based on a Core i7 and 32 GB of DDR4, and costs $920USD (including tax).  There are two MicroCenter locations near me (Washington, DC area) - both have the items in stock.