I'm converted! (windowblinds)

[#Michael]

It's always great when Timdorr comes into the fight and sets the record straight.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

That's not true. The windows classic 'theme' is the windows default with the theme engine turned off. So windows doesn't have to draw anything because it's not using the skinning engine. By using WB with the theme service turned off, you don't draw everything twice.

It's people like you who spew half truths and lies about WB that turns a simple thread like this into an all out mud fight.

First off i would like to say that im a programmer, when it comes to programs on windows and stuff like this i know what im on about

Even when you have windows classic on windows still has to draw stuff, other wise you would just get a black screen, Im not "spewing half-truch and lies" as you put it, everything i said is based on fact, i only called Windows Classic a theme because it's included in the Themes list, when you have Luna or what ever MSStyles you want on, windows does not draw the classic interface first, it draws the theme and only the theme, with WB it draws the classic interface first then the selected WB theme over it.

And im not saying anything bad about WB, i used to use it, from all i have read it is you who is bad-mouthing me. Now if you dont beleive me, talk to the programmers at ms who wrote MSStyles and talk to the peole who wrote WB, youll see that im right

Also, im not saying anything like WB sucks and MSStyles is better, i have seen some good WB themes and some bad ones, i have also seen some good MSStyles themes and some bad ones, like i said in my origional post, if you like WB use it, If you like MSStyles use it, but dont bad-mouth people who use other theming software

[#Michael]

And if you read my other posts....you'll see that I have never bad mouthed any other skiining program.

Each one has its pros and cons.....and my position has always been: to each their own.

And even though you are a programmer....I do know a lot on the windows theme engine and what it does and does not do.

I also know a lot of info on WB and what it does and does not do.

I am very well educated in computers and windows.

[smoke]

I've already talked to them and looked into this for a long time. And I've seen in the past when WB would crash (in earlier versions) there would be no border left. If it just drew over the normal border it would have simply came back. ANd also if you don't specify bitmaps windows doesn't draw anything other than a flat window with no borders.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Uh, how do you think MSStyles works? It's the *exact* same processes. That's why uxtheme.dll attaches itself to every process in the system.

In the ms documentation, it says how the the theming works, first it checks if it is safe to theme the program, if it is it redirects all drawing calls to uxtheme.dll, if it isnt it calls the normal drawing code, every program on the system has uxtheme.dll loaded because it has to draw the caption bars, even if it's not safe to theme the program.

Also if the program worked on the 400Mhz system, good for you, i must be wrong on the low end system bit

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

And if you read my other posts....you'll see that I have never bad mouthed any other skiining program.

Each one has its pros and cons.....and my position has always been: to each their own.

And even though you are a programmer....I do know a lot on the windows theme engine and what it does and does not do.

I also know a lot of info on WB and what it does and does not do.

I am very well educated in computers and windows.

Good for you, so i am, lets not argue on such a small thing then, but i would like to point out one small thing, i never said you were bad mouthing other theming software, i said you were bad-mouthing me, cause you said i was spewing lies and half-truths

[bryonhowley]

ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinons and all .. but if you use msstyles .. you have **** running in the background using a lot more mem than WB... it's called svchost.exe, you should check it out sometimes ..

First off I like Winblinds but it uses way more memmory that the default Windows XP Theme. Svchost.exe serves for a lot of services not just themes.

[#Michael]

Good for you, so i am, lets not argue on such a small thing then, but i would like to point out one small thing, i never said you were bad mouthing other theming software, i said you were bad-mouthing me, cause you said i was spewing lies and half-truths

Sorry about that.

Not because I am a stardock fan-boy (which I am) but because I have found this particular piece of software to be very useful and fun do I defend it so strongly.

And I can't stand when someone bashes that software that I like so much just because it didn't work as well for them as it does for me.

I also can't stand when someone (not you) spews lies about WB....when they actually have no idea what he/she is talking about. WB is an amazing program (just like msstyles are amazing evolution of theming XP)....you just have to know how to use it properly and understand that not every program (especially older ones) can be skinned.

[smoke]

I'd like for you to link to the documentation. What you have described basically is how pretty much both work. The theming system checks to see if the control or whatever can be skinned and if not it falls back to the custom control or classic.

And how do you think the uxtheme.dll that attaches to each process checks for this in the MS theming service? It hooks to the program.

BTW, on my system right now WB with a theme takes 1.3mb... that's about 3mb less than notepad.

Edited April 30, 2004 by smoke

[#Michael]

First off I like Winblinds but it uses way more memmory that the default Windows XP Theme. Svchost.exe serves for a lot of services not just themes.

You have just proved my point about saying lies about WB. WB does not use more memory then the uxtheme and svchost.

When using standard Luna theme instead of windows classic....you add approx 4-6 MB of resources by using the theme service (a combo of uxtheme and svchost)

When using WB with a standard theme (such as watercolor or os x or a varity of lunaish themes) and have the theme service turned off...then you add approx 1-3 MB of resources.

As you can see I am using WB with the OS X theme by Xero and the MS theme service turn off. My wbload mem useage is 2.4 MB

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

If the latest version of WB does use less memory than msstyles, i might start using it, i already know of some nice wb themes i would like to try out

[icecaveman]

If it does not use less memory then at least thanks to this hyper painting WB seems "faster" than UX

[memNOC]

When using standard Luna theme instead of windows classic....you add approx 4-6 MB of resources by using the theme service (a combo of uxtheme and svchost)

and you know this... how exactly?

point is, you can't correctly measure the resources MSStyles use because the svchost.exe isn't tied just to the Themes service..

only way i can measure which takes up more resources is the usage itself.. when using WB (UIS1 or UIS2 skins) my system lags more than with MSStyles.

it just baffles me how you can see how much resources the Theme service+uxtheme.dll use..

[#Michael]

If the latest version of WB does use less memory than msstyles, i might start using it, i already know of some nice wb themes i would like to try out

I suggest giving ver 4.3 a try again when it is released soon. It's got some great new features being added along with memory useage being trimmed again.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

And how do you think the uxtheme.dll that attaches to each process checks for this in the MS theming service? It hooks to the program.

user32 checks if the program can be skined if it links to the common controls, uxtheme only does the drawing, returning of theme info and checking if the theme is a signed ms theme, nothing else

[smoke]

Wow, my theme uses a lot less memory than Xer0's... :wacko: :whistle:

[smoke]

user32 checks if the program can be skined if it links to the common controls, uxtheme only does the drawing, returning of theme info and checking if the theme is a signed ms theme, nothing else

It checks to see which version of common controls is used which then tells it if the program is theme aware or not. This also affects WB as some features work better with theme aware applications than non (like animation), and some programs get more skinned if a manifest file or resource is added than when there is no manifest. WIndowblinds just uses wblind.dll instead of uxtheme.dll to do the work.

BTW, this is not to say that technically the ms theming service is crap. I don't think it's crap, there are just features in WB which I use that I like better.

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

I just checked my task manager, i have about five copies of svchost running, the max memory usage is 16MB and the mnimum is 1.6MB, and im using Watercolor 4.2 by Binary, a low color theme

[#Michael]

and you know this... how exactly?

point is, you can't correctly measure the resources MSStyles use because the svchost.exe isn't tied just to the Themes service..

only way i can measure which takes up more resources is the usage itself.. when using WB (UIS1 or UIS2 skins) my system lags more than with MSStyles.

it just baffles me how you can see how much resources the Theme service+uxtheme.dll use..

Here is what I have done....this may not be the best way of proving it but here it is anyways:

Task manager with no skins (windows classic) (WB unloaded)

Task manager with the Luna theme (WB unloaded)

Task manager with WB loaded using OS X by Xero (theme service disabled)

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

It sound like we are all starting to come to agreement here, so lets stop all this arguing, each man to his own theming software, ok?

[#Michael]

It sound like we are all starting to come to a greement here, so lets stop all this arguing, each man to his own theming software, ok?

sounds great to me

[icecaveman]

If I remember correctly then StarDock's 4.xx series actually make use of the built-in Windows Skinning engine in WindowsXP. Previous versions below 4 did use method where it would first draw "classic theme" and then on top of that it would draw the skin. 4.x series then kind of super-charge the UX theme engine.

Does UX theme support "Compress RLE" on .bmp files like WB does?

And btw someone who doubted the skin would have anything to do with the memory usage then I thought it was apperant to everyone that OFCOURSE IT HAS something to do with the memory, the skin must be loaded into memory first, then 2MB skin would ofcourse take less memory than 6MB one.

[cpu killer]

Just currently started using windowsBlinds, its great - love it :).

[Frogboy Administrators]

that's a myth.

Not a myth. A pretty easy to verify fact.

But common sense should tell you too. What do you think paints the msstyle? Magic? No.

Three things:

1) uxtheme.dll gets attached to every single process that gets skinned (you can verify this quite easily with a process monitor).

2) One of the svchost.exe processes on your machine is the theme service managing the msstyles.

3) MSStyles, because of the format, use more memory. They don't re-use image resources like WindowBlinds skins do. Anyone who has skinned both can tell you that. That's also why msstyles tend to be so much bigger than similar WindowBlinds skins.

[Frogboy Administrators]

yea i agree, perhaps i can't adjust, but just so you know, the exact pixel location thingie is not me "nit picking".. Fitt's law is an actual rulebook that every program designer should work with.. it's proven to reduce stress and improve production in GUIs..

that's why i'm still baffled at Apple's and Stardock's decision (apparently, i don't think they've never heard of this) to not abide this standard of design.. IMO, it should be present in every computer software.

[Moderator hat on]

Okay, this goes beyond just nit-picking into trolling. Now you're just hijacking the original discussion for your own rather odd purposes.

You have been warned previously about trolling.

[Moderator hat off]

Guys, can we try to stick to the subject here? Moving off to somehow blame Stardock for what kinds of skins people make is ridiculous.