I'm converted! (windowblinds)

[Frogboy Administrators]

Look, i dont want to start any arguments here but this is a fact, WindowBlinds is slower than MSStyles, it might not be by much but it is slower

WindowBlinds put's your system on Windows Classic then installs a global system hook to catch all the drawing commands, it doesnt stop windows from doing any drawing at all, so every button, titlebar etc. (you get the idea) is actually drawn twice, this means that window clasic is drawn first, than windowblinds re-draws every thing over top

MSStyles is only drawn once, nothing is drawn underneath, this allows a skin done in MSStyles to be finished drawing in half the time it takes for a WindowBlinds skin to draw. This means that every time a window is drawn, The currently selected theme is drawn, nothing else

The fact that WindowBlinds installs a system hook is what makes it good, as well as bad, Microsoft has acknoledged that installing system hooks slows any (yes, any) system down, you might not notice it but it does slow it down. But his hook also means that it will skin 16-Bit apps. MSStyles wont skin 16-bit apps because it is a part of the 32-Bit user interface bits, which 16-bit apps dont link to.

Im not saying that you shouldnt use it, if you like it, use it, if you dont, dont. If you got that latest 3.6Ghz AMD 64 FX-53 with a ATI Radeon x9800 with 64 bit every thing, you wont notice a speed difference between WindowBlinds or MSStyles, but if you have a 600Mhz Pentium 3 with 64MB, you will, but then you should be using theming software.

Edit: this is to jonkun, ill say sorry for everybody who turned this thread into a WB vs. MSStyles argument (i suppose i even did it as well), congrats on getting it and i hope it doesnt give you any problems.

This is the kind of (sorry) junk that makes me frustrated with MSStyles advocates. They talk of "facts" when they don't know at all what they're tlaking about.

First of all, yes, WindowBlinds uses a system hook. Guess what though? So does UXTheme. They are implemented in almost the exact same way. Both redirect the painting calls to a DLL (uxtheme or wblind) by creating a global system hook.

Therefore, in neither case is the title bar or whatever being drawn twice.

Secondly, WindowBlinds is not only faster at drawing than msstyles of similar complexity, it's a LOT faster. That's because WindowBlinds is a lot smarter about when to draw whereas uxtheme tends to be more brute force. And if you use hyperpaint, things get even faster because your video memory is used to cache your windows.

From a general implementation point of view, the biggest different between WindowBlinds and UXTheme is that windowblinds's dll is spelled wblind.dll and uxtheme's is spelled uxtheme.dll.

Please don't post as an authority on these issues if you're not familiar with them. There's enough disinformation out there as is.

UXTheme is best described as a WindowBlinds Lite that comes bundled with Windows XP. It's no more or less "native" than WindowBlinds and neither double paint anything.

Similarly, there is no inherent reason why WindowBlinds would use more (or less) memory. The difference in memory usage comes in the format of the themes which WindowBlinds has a significant advantage.

[mayamaniac]

I dont think it matter which you use now, WB or Msstyle. Most people's opinion of WB are from past experience where it did have a lot of problems. But seems they cleaned up a lot and PC's speed now can handle it better than before. I like to use msstyle because its just faster to patch and its free. Its true that you can do a lot more with WB, but I like a clean and simple interface, which is easliy handled with msstyle. But if you're not using windows XP, then I guess you are glad WB exists. The basic idea is choice, and that's what WB provides at a resonable price. Instead of wishing that you could do more with your VS, with WB you can. But if you are perfectly happy with your VS, then thats fine, why bitch about WB?

[Frogboy Administrators]

First off i would like to say that im a programmer, when it comes to programs on windows and stuff like this i know what im on about

You apparenlty don't know very much on system hooks or how Windows XP's themes are implemented however.

Even when you have windows classic on windows still has to draw stuff, other wise you would just get a black screen, Im not "spewing half-truch and lies" as you put it, everything i said is based on fact, i only called Windows Classic a theme because it's included in the Themes list, when you have Luna or what ever MSStyles you want on, windows does not draw the classic interface first, it draws the theme and only the theme, with WB it draws the classic interface first then the selected WB theme over it.

Classic is the native Windows XP interface.

And im not saying anything bad about WB, i used to use it, from all i have read it is you who is bad-mouthing me.

You said that things get painted twice which is totally untrue. WindowBlinds and uxtheme both prevent the classic controls and elements from painting at all.

Classic is "fast" because it's done at a much lower level than WB or uxtheme.

UXTheme could be best described as a lite version of WindowBlinds that's been bundled with the OS.

Now if you dont beleive me, talk to the programmers at ms who wrote MSStyles and talk to the peole who wrote WB, youll see that im right

I am one of the people involved with the programming of WindowBlinds and I am intimately familiar with how msstyles are implemented and the individuals at Microsoft on the shell team who implemented it. They would tell you what I am telling you.

[Frogboy Administrators]

In the ms documentation, it says how the the theming works, first it checks if it is safe to theme the program, if it is it redirects all drawing calls to uxtheme.dll, if it isnt it calls the normal drawing code, every program on the system has uxtheme.dll loaded because it has to draw the caption bars, even if it's not safe to theme the program.

How do you think it "redirects" calls to uxtheme.dll? A SYSTEM HOOK.

[Travesty]

You know the arguing is over once Frogboy steps in :)

[#Michael]

You know the arguing is over once Frogboy steps in :)

Only wish he had stepped in earlier...would have saved 5 pages of arguing over which is better..

[memNOC]

[Moderator hat on]

Okay, this goes beyond just nit-picking into trolling. Now you're just hijacking the original discussion for your own rather odd purposes.

You have been warned previously about trolling.

[Moderator hat off]

Guys, can we try to stick to the subject here? Moving off to somehow blame Stardock for what kinds of skins people make is ridiculous.

that's retarded..

it's not my problem you can't deal with criticism..

but giving me a warning because i gave an opinion and backed up my argument from earlier?

you are the worst moderator on Neowin.

[#Michael]

that's retarded..

it's not my problem you can't deal with criticism..

but giving me a warning because i gave an opinion and backed up my argument from earlier?

you are the worst moderator on Neowin.

You got warned because you were trolling and beating a dead argument.

Just like you would be warned in the customizing windowsxp forum if you stayed there and trolled about how bad msstyles are.

How about everyone matures around here a little and realize this is a windowblinds forum....not the bitch about what I don't like about a piece of software forum.

Once and for all.....IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.....DON'T USE IT

no one is forcing you to use it

[Veedems Veteran]

Guys, please back on topic. Someone finally saw through the propaganda and saw the truth. Heck, I don't use a WB theme right now (as stated multiple times) but I still know it's better and, once b0se releases his vector style, I will be right back to using WB.

[wase4711]

well, I have been using WB for years, and even though the themes usually are more interesting than what you can get with Style XP, the one thing I have noticed is how it does drag on my machine...

I mean, a basic task like right clicking to get your Display properties was taking almost 20 seconds with Window Blinds, and takes 2 seconds with Style XP...

Although now that I have learned about disabling the the Theme Service, I will probably try it again...

They are both nice proggies, and as always, some folks will like one more than the other..

Thanks to all for the wonderful education about both of these proggies!

[+Batfink Subscriber²]

Windowblinds does make a system look amazing, but I'm not really a fan... I like a nice stripped down system using low memory and with as few un-needed programs as possiable.

Leebobs :D

[Neil_Banfield]

user32 checks if the program can be skined if it links to the common controls, uxtheme only does the drawing, returning of theme info and checking if the theme is a signed ms theme, nothing else

This is incorrect.

Uxtheme does far more than just painting.

[greenreaper]

btw, you'd think after that many years of ground-breaking design Stardock would actually follow Fitts' law.. what's the deal with having to LOOK for the X button on the titlebars and watch where i click? years of computing taught me that launching my hand in the upper-right direction and clicking = closing windows.. this is really frustrating, and one of the main reasons, actually, i despise Apple's OS'.. but that's another issue.... :whistle:

This is up to the skinner. I would refer you to Making Great Skins, which has this, among other suggestions for skinners (WB and otherwise). It's up to the skinner to follow them, of course, and if they choose to make the top-right corner do nothing, or crash your computer, that's up to them too. That's what skinning is all about - choice, and where there is a choice between forced usability and flexibilty for the skinner, WB will tend to be on the side of the skinner. Of course, if you don't like that choices that the skinner makes, feel free to complain to the skinner, but I think blaming the software writer for giving them the choice is going a little far. ;-)

Edited May 1, 2004 by greenreaper

[Neil_Banfield]

First off i would like to say that im a programmer, when it comes to programs on windows and stuff like this i know what im on about

Even when you have windows classic on windows still has to draw stuff, other wise you would just get a black screen, Im not "spewing half-truch and lies" as you put it, everything i said is based on fact, i only called Windows Classic a theme because it's included in the Themes list, when you have Luna or what ever MSStyles you want on, windows does not draw the classic interface first, it draws the theme and only the theme, with WB it draws the classic interface first then the selected WB theme over it.

And im not saying anything bad about WB, i used to use it, from all i have read it is you who is bad-mouthing me. Now if you dont beleive me, talk to the programmers at ms who wrote MSStyles and talk to the peole who wrote WB, youll see that im right

Also, im not saying anything like WB sucks and MSStyles is better, i have seen some good WB themes and some bad ones, i have also seen some good MSStyles themes and some bad ones, like i said in my origional post, if you like WB use it, If you like MSStyles use it, but dont bad-mouth people who use other theming software

Firstly being a programmer doesn't make you always right.

It is true that what you have written is incorrect in almost every way.

Where you got the idea that WB lets classic paint first and then paints the skinned look is beyond me. That would result in terrible flickering when repainting things and would be a highly inefficient method of doing things.

It would also raise interesting questions given that progressbar skinning has been shown to outperform windows classic...

In terms of repainting an application thats themeaware (given that msstyles doesn't skin controls in non themeaware apps), WindowBlinds and msstyles work in almost exactly the same way. WB has more options and more advanced performance related features, but the basic concept is similar.

On a technical note, the only native look XP has is the classic look. The included msstyles engine intercepts various painting messages before the default OS code handles them so it can handle non client area painting.

[#Michael]

btw, you'd think after that many years of ground-breaking design Stardock would actually follow Fitts' law.. what's the deal with having to LOOK for the X button on the titlebars and watch where i click? years of computing taught me that launching my hand in the upper-right direction and clicking = closing windows.. this is really frustrating, and one of the main reasons, actually, i despise Apple's OS'.. but that's another issue....

Wouldn't kind of only work if you were right handed?

Wouldn't feel more comfortable for a lefty to be able to use a mouse to go right up to the left edge to close a screen?

[greenreaper]

Also if the program worked on the 400Mhz system, good for you, i must be wrong on the low end system bit

Well, since Neil was developing for years on a 350Mhz machine, I would be surprised if it didn't. :-)

[Frogboy Administrators]

I used to demo WindowBlinds on a Pentium 100 at trade shows on Windows 95. It certainly works fine on low end hardware.

[QuarterSwede]

Wouldn't kind of only work if you were right handed?

Wouldn't feel more comfortable for a lefty to be able to use a mouse to go right up to the left edge to close a screen?

That's what I was thinking. Actually I was on OSX yesterday and had no problem using the caption bars or even the OS for that matter. It just makes sense where they stick stuff. Now I'm not saying everyone won't have a problem "switch hitting" different OS's but I don't and I'm not really "ambidextris" (sp?).

[ciel]

okay a very noob question cuz i've never used wb, can we still use msstyle once we install WB?

cheers :D

[Veedems Veteran]

okay a very noob question cuz i've never used wb, can we still use msstyle once we install WB?

cheers :D

yes you can. Just hold down the control button when you click to open display properties.

[imtoomuch]

The worst thing about WindowBlinds is the lack of good skins for it. But that can be said about MSStyles too. WindowBlinds also is buggier than MSStyles in my experience. Some apps just hate WindowBlinds and you have to exclude the app from being skinned or else that app crashes all the time. These same apps don't have issues being themed with MSStyles, though.

[smoke]

That's because by default ms styles don't fully skin programs that are not theme aware. Windowblins does, however there is a setting to change that and other ways like using the exlusion list which you can exlude the program in different ways such as don't skin dialog area, or not skinning at all.

I guess I'm a lucky person though because I don't really have problems with WB and applications I use.

[ciel]

yes you can. Just hold down the control button when you click to open display properties.

ah thanx for the tip :D

[greenreaper]

Some apps just hate WindowBlinds and you have to exclude the app from being skinned or else that app crashes all the time. These same apps don't have issues being themed with MSStyles, though.

Try a UIS1 skin with them? You can tell them by the fact that the WB preview for them has no menu bar. They're intended to be more compatible than UIS2 skins that allow funky stuff like random window borders.

[#Michael]

The worst thing about WindowBlinds is the lack of good skins for it. But that can be said about MSStyles too. WindowBlinds also is buggier than MSStyles in my experience. Some apps just hate WindowBlinds and you have to exclude the app from being skinned or else that app crashes all the time. These same apps don't have issues being themed with MSStyles, though.

I'd have to agree about the lack of good themes....both for WB and msstyles.

A bunch of new Mac themes have come out recently (yes, I love the OS X interface) but non seem to be truly useable. All of them have these big fonts that don't fit on the buttons.

And yes...I do have some programs that don't like WB. Zone Alarm being one of them....so I just exclude them from being skinned.

Personally, I can't wait for the new release....got some great features coming.