iTunes 'not CD-quality'

[pogz]

I trust the industry's technological know-how much more than I trust some greasy-haired open-source-zealot 16-year-old who claims that "Sogg Hornbis" or whatever is better than the format they're using.

Haha. If you need evidence of open-source technology beating the tech behind corporations, look at apache web server. Also remember that OGG does not have DRM restrictions. I'm getting off-topic, though.

Microsoft spent a lot of money getting compaines to use their WMA format.

[imtoomuch]

The iPod has 70 percent of revenues of the MP3 player market and over 50 percent of the total market of players so I think it is safe to say that 70 of the high end market is reasonable.

Also, iTMS has 70 percent of the legal download market.

That's funny seeing as how everything I find says the iPod only has an 8%-25% share of the market.

[woem]

If you need evidence of open-source technology beating the tech behind corporations, look at apache web server. Also remember that OGG does not have DRM restrictions.

Uhm, not sure if you know this, but psychoacoustic audio compression actually requires scientific listening tests to properly tune the encoders. Unlike coding web browsers or http servers, there need to be public tests performed to show that the encoder is tuned properly. On top of that, they need to perform several rounds of testing to properly fine-tune the encoders. It's a little more than can hacked together in some basement somewhere.

As for DRM, who cares? The music is the property of the people who produce it and the corporations who publish it, and if they deign to include DRM, that's their prerogative. You are not entitled to free and/or DRM-free music in any way, shape or form.

[cal2002]

That's funny seeing as how everything I find says the iPod only has an 8%-25% share of the market.

It's 70% of the hard drive based players, right?

Microsoft spent a lot of money getting compaines to use their WMA format.

In my mind I would include support for WMA in any device i made. You have WMP on every Windows PC, you have Microsoft licensing the tech. for cheap. Apple doesn't license their at all.

[giga Veteran]

I trust the industry's technological know-how much more than I trust some greasy-haired open-source-zealot 16-year-old who claims that "Sogg Hornbis" or whatever is better than the format they're using.

http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html

[pogz]

Uhm, not sure if you know this, but psychoacoustic audio compression actually requires scientific listening tests to properly tune the encoders. Unlike coding web browsers or http servers, there need to be public tests performed to show that the encoder is tuned properly. On top of that, they need to perform several rounds of testing to properly fine-tune the encoders. It's a little more than can hacked together in some basement somewhere.

As for DRM, who cares? The music is the property of the people who produce it and the corporations who publish it, and if they deign to include DRM, that's their prerogative. You are not entitled to free and/or DRM-free music in any way, shape or form.

Uhm, from your last post I got the impression that you think technology developed by corporations is better than that of open-source. That's where the apache -example- came from.

*sigh* -- yes, listening tests are required. You think they weren't done for OGG? I don't know what problem you have with the format, but I guess it's your opinion. Realnetworks and Helix are even donating money to help OGG's development; tell me that doesn't show how well it's doing.

The advantages of using DRM to protect copyright are overshadowed by its disadvantages. It locks consumers into specific formats and cumbersome (if I want to convert my iTunes-purchased music to another format, why should I be stopped?) along with many more disadvantages. I'm all for artists getting paid, but not if it's a pain in my ass. That's a different discussion though.

[the evn show]

The iPod has 70% of the market?  Does it really?  You got proof to back this up?

This story on CNN gives the iPod 50% of the MP3 player market share. They're talking only portable players and not things like home DVD players with MP3-support or PC with Winamp installed, and I imagine only in countries where Apple does business because 50% is even higher than Apple claimed at their launch of the iPod mini.

You can also view the MWSF keynote where Apple claims 31% of the MP3-player market, 70% of the legal download market (they cite Nielson SoundScan as their source at 37:50), 31% of the MP3 player market (at 1:48:30) and gives a break down about high-end market share at 1:50.

I don't need to remind you that marketshare != installed user base.

EDIT: The final break down of the Total portable MP3 player market share was listed as:

iPod: 31%

other hard disk players: 7%

High-end flash: 31%

Low-end flash: 31%

Then they said "here is the iPod mini" and every one clapped.

[Azadre]

For those who claim to hear the difference in anything encoded above 192Kbs AAC, you are lying. Simply, our ears are only adapted hear certain range, and that is 20-20,000 Hz. It doesn't matter what we claim to hear, it simply isn't audible to our brains. Animals, yes, humans, no. AAC does a very great job of encoding a CD. It IS better than WMA also. However, the standard isn't popular with the music stores for 1. The codec does not come with a DRM 2. There are licensing fees 3. Microsoft gives discounts using its Monoply money. If Apple licensed Fair Play, the DRM it uses for its VERY popular iPod, the distribution would be a lot bigger. But Apple knows that their model is working so why help the competitors. And for those who complain about 128kbs AAC from the iTunes store not being clear enough, quit your attention whoring because Apple wouldn't have sold 100,000,000 songs if their product (DRMed M4Ps) were of bad quality.

[woem]

That test his horribly flawed.

First off, the bitrates of the files they were testing weren't standardized at all. It was whatever the encoder wanted for that sample. Note that most of the "winning" encoders were above average bitrate-wise.

Second, the sample size is too small to be really representational.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, there was too much allowance for people to submit falsified data sets. The open-source world has such a strong anti-Microsoft bias that I'm not surprised to see WMA do so poorly on this test.

@sadatkarim: Did you actually read and comprehend the text you quoted?

@pogz: RealAudio has had horrible audio quality from the outset. Of course they'd be backing some solution, and as they're a corporation competing with Microsoft, it would make sense for them to back a format other than WMA, as Apple is doing. Using that as an example is not proof of good audio quality, although it does indicate that Vorbis may be improving in the future.

Further proof you have no clue about what you're talking about: Ogg is the name of the container format, not the audio format within it. Vorbis is the name of the audio format within it. Vorbis can be encapsulated in Matroska as well, among other things. Ogg can also hold movies and muxed a/v.

[cal2002]

3. Microsoft gives discounts using its Monoply money.

I think MS keeps losing that money. 600 mil to EU, that must be the money you are talking about

[Azadre]

I think MS keeps losing that money. 600 mil to EU, that must be the money you are talking about

600 Mil to Microsoft is like the great lakes to the Atlantic Ocean.

[cal2002]

I think you can double the 600 mil, I don't remember the other amount that have gone, also we have no idea what kind of money they have to through around. $100 bucks says the statement was based off of Gates money.

[threetonesun]

It's worth mentioning that iTunes is by far the best quality you can get online. I've never gotten a file from P2P that could compare to iTunes, even from more reliable sources.

[imtoomuch]

This story on CNN gives the iPod 50% of the MP3 player market share. They're talking only portable players and not things like home DVD players with MP3-support or PC with Winamp installed, and I imagine only in countries where Apple does business because 50% is even higher than Apple claimed at their launch of the iPod mini.

You can also view the MWSF keynote where Apple claims 31% of the MP3-player market, 70% of the legal download market (they cite Nielson SoundScan as their source at 37:50), 31% of the MP3 player market (at 1:48:30) and gives a break down about high-end market share at 1:50.

I don't need to remind you that marketshare != installed user base.

EDIT: The final break down of the Total portable MP3 player market share was listed as:

iPod: 31%

other hard disk players: 7%

High-end flash: 31%

Low-end flash: 31%

Then they said "here is the iPod mini" and every one clapped.

Well just read this this.

[[moribundi]]

It's worth mentioning that iTunes is by far the best quality you can get online. I've never gotten a file from P2P that could compare to iTunes, even from more reliable sources.

I regularly download VBR files from usenet that are higher quality, but the size increase is quite substantial.

*edit*

Legally, yes, iTMS has the "best" quality downloads. Unfortunately, I no longer use my iPod.

[the evn show]

Well just read this this.

The article is admittedly vague.

"The companies that sell components that go in MP3 players are a good place to ask...they sold about 15,000,000 chips last year".

If we accept that at face value we still have to make a few more assumptions

1) That those chips went into portable MP3 players and not DVD-players, cell phones, etc.

2) All of those chips have all been delivered and put into MP3 players (as opposed to sitting on the shelves in an assembly plant).

3) That those MP3 players have been sold to consumers.

The article admits that they cannot confirm this at all.

Apple shipped about 800k iPods last quarter (their weakest one of the year traditionally) and that as a 900%+ increase year over year. Assuming about a million ipod sales per quarter (not unreasonable with the ipod mini and all) thats 4,000,000 units shipped this year.

4/15 * 10e6 is about 25% of the market - and this is the "best case" scenario based on "estimates" for countries world wide. Apple's claim of 31% is certainly not unreasonable (which is the number I chose to use in my original statement).

Furthermore, that article is talking about world-wide market share for MP3 players - for the purposes of this thread we're really only interested in the market share and installed base of MP3 players in countries that have legal online music stores doing business there.

[STV]

I think MS keeps losing that money. 600 mil to EU, that must be the money you are talking about

microsoft makes that much in 2 weeks, believe me, it is gonna take a lot more than that to take down microsoft.

STV

[pogz]

@pogz: RealAudio has had horrible audio quality from the outset. Of course they'd be backing some solution, and as they're a corporation competing with Microsoft, it would make sense for them to back a format other than WMA, as Apple is doing. Using that as an example is not proof of good audio quality, although it does indicate that Vorbis may be improving in the future.

Further proof you have no clue about what you're talking about: Ogg is the name of the container format, not the audio format within it. Vorbis is the name of the audio format within it. Vorbis can be encapsulated in Matroska as well, among other things. Ogg can also hold movies and muxed a/v.

Yeah, real does suck. On the other hand, businesses don't spend money "just because" -- if real didn't see potential in the format they would have been better off spending money on improving their own.

Second, "ogg" is just what it's commonly referred to, and you know exactly what I meant. Stop nitpicking and pull your head out. It's obvious that you don't like ogg, I do like it, nobody's going to change their opinion, so I'm done with this discussion. PM me with more of your flames if you want.

[threetonesun]

,Jul 6 2004, 00:40] I regularly download VBR files from usenet that are higher quality, but the size increase is quite substantial.

*edit*

Legally, yes, iTMS has the "best" quality downloads. Unfortunately, I no longer use my iPod.

Fair enough, I was talking about illegal sources as well, and often download uncompressed audio myself from archive.org, but any place you find things with higher quality have considerably smaller catalogs, to say the least.

[imtoomuch]

The article is admittedly vague.

"The companies that sell components that go in MP3 players are a good place to ask...they sold about 15,000,000 chips last year".

If we accept that at face value we still have to make a few more assumptions

1) That those chips went into portable MP3 players and not DVD-players, cell phones, etc.

2) All of those chips have all been delivered and put into MP3 players (as opposed to sitting on the shelves in an assembly plant).

3) That those MP3 players have been sold to consumers.

The article admits that they cannot confirm this at all.

Apple shipped about 800k iPods last quarter (their weakest one of the year traditionally) and that as a 900%+ increase year over year.  Assuming about a million ipod sales per quarter (not unreasonable) thats 4,000,000 units shipped this year.

15/4 * 10e6 is about 25% of the market - and this is the "best case" scenario based on "estimates" for countries world wide.  Apple's claim of 31% is certainly not unreasonable (which is the number I chose to use in my original statement).

Furthermore, that article is talking about world-wide market share for MP3 players - for the purposes of this thread we're really only interested in the market share and installed base of MP3 players in countries that have legal online music stores doing business there.

I can't believe what you are saying. You are just nitpicking now. The fact is that most analysts believe that Apple claims to have more of the market and unit share than they really do have. No real stats exist to determine exactly what proportion of the market Apple owns so right there your claim of 70% can be dismissed as meaningless. And the CNN article you referred to was also talking about the entire world and not just the "countries that have legal online music stores doing business there" so make up your mind about which market you are referring to. Get your facts straight. Anyway, I'm not going to even bother responding to somebody who is twisting things to fit his argument.

[[moribundi]]

Fair enough, I was talking about illegal sources as well, and often download uncompressed audio myself from archive.org, but any place you find things with higher quality have considerably smaller catalogs, to say the least.

True, and usenet is pretty much hit-or-miss. But on average, most of the more prevelent groups have quite nice bitrates. As a rule, I refuse to download anything below 192.

[tkyoshi]

DRM Wise, WMA is poor compared to Apple's DRM.

The Problem with WMA is that when you purchase music on one computer you can only play i ton that computer. If you do reformat you can only restore licenses so many times as it thinks you are restoring it to a different computer.

Of course you can burn to CD and rerip to get rid of the DRM but then there is some quality loss.

[BiGdUsTy]

As a rule, I refuse to download anything below 192.

Same here.

[woem]

I do like it, nobody's going to change their opinion, so I'm done with this discussion. PM me with more of your flames if you want.

Way to not attempt to refute a single thing I said. That's sure a good way to save face when you lose a debate.

I never said Vorbis lacked potential. I'm not a fan of it, no, but at least don't misquote me. I'm dubious of claims to its superiority without significant investment into tuning research. Ad hoc Internet-based polls aren't going to really change the tuning quality at all.

Calling Vorbis "OGG" is like calling AAC "MP4"; those are the two containers most associated with the two formats, but you're not gaining any ground with anyone by using incorrect terminology. You can put video and MPEG Layer-3 (aka. MP3) into an MP4 file as well.

Did you see that my posts use Vorbis instead of "OGG" but are no less readable? It's what, 3 characters more? You're just showing you're ignorant of the underlying technology by using "OGG", which is totally beneficial when debating the merits of technologies on the Internet. :rolleyes:

[aristotle-dude]

Do you understand what market share means? It does not matter how many Mp3 chipsets were produced (regardless of whether they are destined for portable mp3 player). What matters is how many players were sold to end user consumers. We have hard numbers for iPod sales. Where are the numbers for the competition for actual units sold to consumers? i have feeling some people are trying to inflate numbers with some cheap keychain mp3 player given away as promotional items and never used or units siting on a self in a factory somewhere unwanted and unused.