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Hey calling all programmers to give help if you wish

Asked by Winston,

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Grand Master

Winston

Posted
Posted

Hey i'm in year 11 now this year

doing Software design and development

starting on turbo pascal version 1.5

i know it's old

and it's BS to you guys

but gees i'm just soooo lost about this we jump so fast

we start talking about object orientated and then we start talking about flowcharts ans psuedocode

wat the hell am i learning

so can you guys give me some tips on what to do in programming

do u guys still remember when the first time u touched this stuff?..

55 answers to this question

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Rising Star

wog boy

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by grimman

take it from a VB-person... DON'T DO VB! :D

scripting might do fine (ASP), but ****... vb as a programming language is pure crap.

VB has its bad and good points. it is a very good language to learn if you are NEW to programming. thou i prefer C++ over visual basic...

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Neowinian

zoodboog

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Winston

Hey i'm in year 11 now this year

doing Software design and development

starting on turbo pascal version 1.5

i know it's old

and it's BS to you guys

but gees i'm just soooo lost about this we jump so fast

we start talking about object orientated and then we start talking about flowcharts ans psuedocode

wat the hell am i learning

so can you guys give me some tips on what to do in programming

do u guys still remember when the first time u touched this stuff?..

okay firstly whilst pascal is old, it certainly isn't bs. it powers Delphi, the main rival to visual basic. i say rival because, even though Delphi is infinitely better, most people are tought VB in schools because its more idiot-friendly and fisher-price like.

and returning to "old" again, BASIC and C / C++ are both incredibly old languages as well, so you shouldn't think that an "old" language is a bad one by default.

sure, turbo pascal is an old IDE ("integrated development environment", fancy word for programming-program :)), but even if you think turbo pascal is crap because its older than visual basic or whatever, you are SO lucky to be using it. visual basic is the worst program ever made by those microsoft motherbitches. it makes me want to cry just looking at it.

moving on

object oriented programming is basically when you start grouping things together using what are called "records" or "classes".

for example, instead of having seperate variables for the height of person a and for the weight of person a, you would have a record/class called "person", which contained two "fields" called height and weight. it may also contain methods (depending on the language), such as "MakeGiant" which could increase the height and weight by 10000 times

using this record / class you would declare a variable OF it, say, "personA", and then you could get the height and weight of him by using personA.height personA.weight, so you use one variable and two fields instead of two seperate variables. in essence, the person class/record is an "object" you have created that groups related / similar items.

this may sound really confusing so take another real life example. in real life, you can say that a box has a few "properties" or "fields" such as its height, its width, its length. when you're programming, it would get really confusing if you had seperate variables for these (boxheightA, boxwidthA etc) so you create one object to emcompass them all.

now, say you want people to be able to get the height of the box from the object, but not be able to set it. you would "hide" its height field, and create a method called "GetHeight" which would return the height. this would mean that you could use GetHeight to find out the height, but never be able to use Box.Height = X to change it.

object orientated programming also deals with heirachies. imagine one day you find a box that resembles the first box we created - it has a height, a width and a length - but it is made out of sticks. you could then declare a class called "StickBox" which "inherited" properties from "Box" (height/width/length) as well as adding its own properties, such as "StickLength" "StickType". this idea of inheritance is used soooo much in Delphi and Visual C++ and NOT AT ALL in visual basic (unless you are using .NET) because basic is a ****ty, ****ty language.

pseudocode is just a make believe language used to teach programming. what you write in pseudocode will NOT compile in a real language. it is primarily used so that people can write stuff like "get the users input" in pseudocode and be "correct" instead of having to write it properly using syntax rules used in real languages, for example "ReadLn(blah)" in Pascal or "cin >> blah" in C++

pseudocode is **** and i hope its inventor dies a horrible painful death.

flowcharts are just ways of showing the "flow" or order-of-execution of an algorithm to people not smart enough to understand it by looking at the code. not as annoying as pseudocode, but very annoying to create.

as an aside, the australian software course sucks donkeys balls and i will be dropping it next year (im in y11). apparently only like 1 person in NSW got band 6 last year.

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Grand Master

azcodemonkey

Posted
Posted

Not to get into a language-flame war, but any language is ****ty in the hands of the wrong person. VB is far safer for anyone that doesn't care to know sys internals than C/C++ is. The intent of the language wasn't to be the best friggin oop language you've ever seen. It was to be able to create apps in a timely manner. IMO, it acheived that. So what if you can't do implementation inheritance or polymorphism in it? You can componentize in it just as well as any other language with less blood and sweat. COM is a smart component design, albeit, complicated.

Before you go off on how much better Delphi is than VB, I'll just let you know that I happen to love the VCL. Borland's tools are the best. I've been using them since Turbo C, then Borland C++ 4.5, and now C++ Builder 5.

Every tool can be used efficiently if you know what you're doing in the first place. Every language has its drawbacks.

Psuedocode is a handy tool to use to sketch ideas without having to be at a terminal. It's just plain language, so why is it so horrible?

It's obvious that you've never worked on any piece of software of any significance. Flowcharts, or UML are invaluable design tools. For small projects, they are probably overkill, but for large scale apps, they rule. It has nothing to do with being smart or not. You've never inherited 150,000+ lines of code written by someone that doesn't comment, didn't bother to document, and has bugs that you have to track down on a deadline. It sucks.

If you want to be a good programmer, you're going to find that a good percentage of the process entails design and documentation without writing any code. If your design is solid, the code pretty much writes itself. Of course, programming is an interative process, so if it doesn't work, you go back to designing, etc.

If you're just in it to write apps for yourself, disregard.

Winston, don't worry about syntax, you'll get it eventually and there is always reference material. The most important thing is to understand the software development process and how to build solid code. You need to understand what problem it is you are trying to solve. Write down what inputs you'll be getting from the user, what outputs they want, what formulas you'll need, etc. Then use psuedocode to map out the logic in plain english. Software is really just manipulation of data, whether from a user, datafile, soundcard, etc., and presentation of the manipulated data. Input and output.

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Neowinian

zoodboog

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by weenur

Every tool can be used efficiently if you know what you're doing in the first place. Every language has its drawbacks.

Yes, but [Visual] Basic has far more drawbacks than most.

Originally posted by weenur

Psuedocode is a handy tool to use to sketch ideas without having to be at a terminal. It's just plain language, so why is it so horrible?

It's horrible because it isn't plain language. It would be nice if it was, but the "version" we are taught at school isn't just a "handy tool to sketch ideas" but attempts to be a structured language which has numerous syntax rules that contradict most "real" programming languages (such as = for both assigning and testing values). I have nothing against writing down rough algorithms or ideas on a piece of paper, I just hate this "glorified" version we are taught at school.

Originally posted by weenur It's obvious that you've never worked on any piece of software of any significance. Flowcharts, or UML are invaluable design tools. For small projects, they are probably overkill, but for large scale apps, they rule. It has nothing to do with being smart or not. You've never inherited 150,000+ lines of code written by someone that doesn't comment, didn't bother to document, and has bugs that you have to track down on a deadline. It sucks.

Well, I don't know exactly what you mean by "significance", but whilst I'm obviously not part of the Windows development team (hell, i'm only 16) I have worked on projects a lot more complicated than "Hello, World" :)

Recently finished this with a mate from school:

http://www.enfiladestudios.com/products/rifletarget

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Rookie

hornetfighter

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Winston

Hey i'm in year 11 now this year

doing Software design and development

starting on turbo pascal version 1.5

i know it's old

and it's BS to you guys

For a long time, most commercial software was written in either Pascal or C. The decline of Pascal is to do with the fact that Microsoft didn't make a Pascal compiler and Borland don't know how to market their stuff not the language itself. Still there are 1,000,000 Delphi developers.

TurboPascal had support for pointers and had more powerful arrays than C. Versions 6.0 and 7.0 had support for objects too...

Anyway, TP 1.0 doesn't have much of an IDE so it can be hard to program with. I'd recommend you go to http://community.borland.com, sign-up there and then go to http://community.borland.com/article/0,141...0,20803,00.html and download TurboPascal 5.5, even if you only use it at home. It's not too easy to install but it's more intuitive. Version 7.0 has online help, (but it's not Freeware - yet) so if you can find it you may have a better idea of what each line you type actually does.

but gees i'm just soooo lost about this we jump so fast

we start talking about object orientated and then we start talking about flowcharts ans psuedocode

wat the hell am i learning

The initial part of the course - ergonomics, planning solutions, the top-down method of Software Design etc. - don't apply to TP 1.5 (well you can do top-down programming, just not so simply as now) because those ideas weren't even thought of! You basically type your examples and then try to work out what each part does.

Which book are you using? The Heinemann one (by Allan Fowler) talks quite a bit about Pascal syntax.

When programming (for real), forget most that pseudocode rubbish that you've been through. The principles of programming are in pseudocode (i.e. pseudocode is based on Pascal) but their syntax are different. In a real program you cannot dictate to the computer, you have to follow the exact syntax rules of that programming language.

Think of it this way:

Pascal is real but you're not going to be examined on it much

Pseudocode is from the land of fearies (analysts and managers will like it) but you will examined on it heavily. There are better code documentation methods than pseudocode...

Either way, you're going to need to know both

so can you guys give me some tips on what to do in programming

do u guys still remember when the first time u touched this stuff?...

Pascal really isn't that hard. For example you might write in pseudocode:

<pre>

myInteger is a Integer

WHILE myInteger <> 23 

        Display "Guess the number, it's less than 50"

        myInteger = User Input

        IF myInteger = 23 THEN

                Display "Correct"

        ELSE

                Display "Incorrect"

        ENDIF

END WHILE

</pre>

You'd write in Pascal:

<pre>

[b]var[/b]

  myInteger: Integer;

[b]begin[/b]

    [b]while[/b] myInteger <> 23 [b]do[/b]

    [b]begin[/b]

        write('Guess the number, it''s less than 50');

        readln(myInteger);

        [b]if[/b] myInteger = 23 [b]then[/b]

            writeln('Correct')

        [b]else[/b]

            writeln('Incorrect');

    [b]end;[/b]

[b]end.[/b]

</pre>

I do actually remember how I started programming, a bit over two years ago I was learning HTML, it had a section on JavaScript, that got me interested and so I got a book on JavaScript.

Started programming in Pascal in Year 9, got bored with it by half-way through the year. Got Delphi from school, wrote a Towers of Hanoi game - http://www.geocities.com/towersofhanoi. Towers of Hanoi is an interesting project actually, 'cause I have about 5 builds there so you (and me) can see how I learnt more programming techniques over 6 months.

Once you know how to program in one (or two) languages, the rest seem comparatively easy - C++, Object Pascal, VB, they're all similar in design. So now it's not to difficult for me to program in

  • Turbo Pascal
  • Delphi/Object Pascal
  • Some C++ (don't much like C, C++ is OK)
  • Visual Basic (to a point, like it less still)
  • JavaScript/JScript (which lends itself to JScript ASP...)
  • PHP (much better than CGI Perl, yuck!)

need to learn C# - no time :(, black-listed Java ages ago.

Once you know the ins and outs of a language you actually get pull code of of your mouth :D, without much trouble. Sure the Windows API is BIG, but that's what the Internet is for - finding code...

Anyway, about.com used to have a TP site but it's gone now, still Borland have a site http://www.borland.com/pascal/pascalnet.html that might help you in your quest to deceipher Pascal :p

Incidentally, your program to sum two numbers looks like this

<pre>

[b]program[/b] SumInts;



[b]var[/b]

    Int1, Int2, Total: Integer;



[b]begin[/b]

    Write('Enter the first integer: ');

    Readln(Int1);

    Write('Enter the second integer: ');

    Readln(Int2);

    Total := Int1 + Int 2;

    Writeln('The total of the two numbers is: ', Total);

[b]end.[/b]

</pre>

there we have it!

Just wondering, what school are you going to? We have to do VB, haven't even started yet. How I feel for the non-programmers...

/rant :o

P.S. Newest project is at http://www.enfiladestudios.com (well, with Zoodboog ;) )

edit - code mistake

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Grand Master

azcodemonkey

Posted
Posted

C++ has a pretty significant drawback... keeping C compatibility! ;)

The D programming language looks promising. www.digitalmars.com

It's horrible because it isn't plain language. It would be nice if it was, but the "version" we are taught at school isn't just a "handy tool to sketch ideas" but attempts to be a structured language which has numerous syntax rules that contradict most "real" programming languages (such as = for both assigning and testing values). I have nothing against writing down rough algorithms or ideas on a piece of paper, I just hate this "glorified" version we are taught at school.

I see. I guess that could be a real beotch. The pseudocode I was taught was just used to rough out basic logic and it was plain english. Bummer.

I meant significant in size, enterprise stuff, or something like a manufacturing process control software. You know, big and complex. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I understand that for smaller apps where you or even a few people are writing everything, flowcharting isn't really necessary. I know I don't use them for personal projects. For academic purposes, and if you plan on pursuing programming for a living, it is a good practice to keep. Projects you may have worked on may not be always kept up by you, and there are many times that you'll inherit code that you didn't write, but have to maintain.

16, eh... damn! I didn't even like computers when I was 16.

Your project looks interesting. I have a friend that might find that useful. What kind of database does it use? Can it scale?

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Grand Master

Winston

Posted
  • Author
Posted

man i love u guys

i go to all saints senior casula

near liverpool

hmm well theres alot of jargon talk

and whats syntax

i get soo deluded in jargon

talk

if u guys wanna post sumthing if its ok

can u put in brackets what the terms mean

i mean i gave never touched this stuff b4

ok this is what we did as a class and then u would see how slow we are

and like where do u find the commands like 'else'

how can u just pull that out of ur ass and noe what that means?..

program Convert decimal to binary;

uses;

wincrt

var

decinumber,remainder,whole:intergers;

begin

decinumber: = 0;

remainder: = 0;

whole: = 0;

write('Please enter a number');

readln(decinumber);

repeat

begin

remainder: =decinumber mod2;

whole=decinumber div2;

writeln(remainder);

decinumber=whole

end;

until whole=0;

end.

i mean where it says repeat and upwards

i dont get why

and in the beginning my teacher said we must set the intergers to zero

but why?

isnt it already sett?..

and in the bit where its begin

reamainder collen

whats the collen mean?

and mod 2

and div 2?

wtf

they said mod means modules =remainder

and div is divide

but whats with the '2'?..

and yeah gees im soo getting lost

and i dont wanna screw my hsc up because of software

but i wanan do good

becoz im very tenacious in computers

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Grand Master

azcodemonkey

Posted
Posted

Do you have a textbook for this class? All these things are defined in the language which you should be able to reference in your textbook, or the helpfile.

The word else is what is known as a keyword and is used in if... else control flow. It is a word that the compiler recognizes. It is how you control logical determinations. For instance, you determine if your favorite tv show is on by using a logical control.

Ex.

if the time is 6:00P.M. turn on channel 3 and watch Eastenders, otherwise (else) go have a beer.

When you declare a variable, it is unitialized. In other words, the compiler sees the declaration, allocates memory for the variable based on the data type( in remainders case, an integer ), and uses the name you assign it as the reference to the memory. That memory is unitialized. It can contain anything. Basically, you don't know what is there until you initialize the variable by assigning it a value. Try declaring a variable and print it out on the command line without initializing it. You'll get something, but not zero.

mod means modulus or modulo.

mod 2 means return the remainder of x/2. That technique is used a lot to determine if a number is even or odd. Does that make sense?

div is for integer division.

div 2, just means divide x by 2 and it won't return an remainder.

The colon after remainder is actually := which is an assignment operator. It assigns a value to the variable remainder. In programming, the value on the left side of the := ( known as an LValue )is what takes the value of the statement on the right side ( known as an RValue ).

If you see just the = by itself, it is evaluting. Is x = y? Does that make sense?

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Grand Master

Krome

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Winston

man i love u guys

i go to all saints senior casula

near liverpool

hmm well theres alot of jargon talk

and whats syntax

i get soo deluded in jargon

talk

if u guys wanna post sumthing if its ok

can u put in brackets what the terms mean

i mean i gave never touched this stuff b4

ok this is what we did as a class and then u would see how slow we are

and like where do u find the commands like 'else'

how can u just pull that out of ur ass and noe what that means?..

program Convert decimal to binary;

uses;

wincrt

var

decinumber,remainder,whole:intergers;

begin

decinumber: = 0;

remainder: = 0;

whole: = 0;

write('Please enter a number');

readln(decinumber);

repeat

begin

remainder: =decinumber mod2;

whole=decinumber div2;

writeln(remainder);

decinumber=whole

end;

until whole=0;

end.

i mean where it says repeat and upwards

i dont get why

and in the beginning my teacher said we must set the intergers to zero

but why?

isnt it already sett?..

and in the bit where its begin

reamainder collen

whats the collen mean?

and mod 2

and div 2?

wtf

they said mod means modules =remainder

and div is divide

but whats with the '2'?..

and yeah gees im soo getting lost

and i dont wanna screw my hsc up because of software

but i wanan do good

becoz im very tenacious in computers

First of all Winston, your coding is very bad... sorry to be honest... I am surprise it even compile properly... Any ways... Let me rewrite your code in a proper way so it's very easy to understand. If you write it jibberish, then it's hard to understand... ok here it is...

<pre>

01 |   PROGRAM Convert decimal to binary;

02 |   uses;

03 |   wincrt

04 |   VAR

05 |   

06 |   decinumber, remainder, whole:INTEGERS;

07 |   

08 |   BEGIN

09 |     decinumber := 0;

10 |     remainder := 0;

11 |     whole := 0;

12 |     WRITE ('Please enter a number: ');

13 |     READLN (decinumber);

14 |   

15 |     REPEAT

16 |       BEGIN

17 |         remainder := decinumber MOD 2;

18 |         whole = decinumber DIV 2;

19 |         WRITELN (remainder);

20 |         decinumber = whole

21 |       END;

22 |     UNTIL whole = 0;

23 |   END.

</pre>

The reason I put those numbers there is because it's easier to point out which line I am talking about... Pascal ofcourse cannot have those numbers but you do have to have proper tabulation tho... for reading purpose...

You asked why line 9-11 has to be initialized. Well the reason being is that in Pascal, it can grab garbage values and set it for the null constant integers. You don't want this to happen. So you have to initialize it. One more thing, if the constant is inside a loop, it can reset it's value back to zero when it jumps back to the initialization. Now if you did not include those three lines inside or outside of the loop, and not initialize it, you might encounter some problem. You can have some values that you know the computer is pulling it out of the hat. :) hehehe

MODulus is how many times it can be divided for a whole (integer) number. MOD is an inverse of DIV and vice-versa.

Hope this answer some question... :) Do proper code so you can learn faster and easier... if you teacher does not stress on how important that is, then they are not doing it right. :)

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Rookie

hornetfighter

Posted
Posted

weenur:

Originally posted by weenur

C++ has a pretty significant drawback... keeping C compatibility! ;)

The D programming language looks promising. www.digitalmars.com

Considering how soon C followed B, D is very, very late :o

Once a langauge is standarised, it becomes difficult to extend it to support new features that are devised. C++ certainly saw this, hence C#. Hopefully C# is able to hold its own for as long as C++ or longer (a non .NET compiler is a start...)

I see. I guess that could be a real beotch. The pseudocode I was taught was just used to rough out basic logic and it was plain english. Bummer.

Yes, our course is to write Pseudocode algorithms as Pascall programs, not very much looser than that - we have some flexibility with arrays, parameters and user input (as well as having mythical conditions like "MachineIsTurnedOn" - oh the pain!)

I meant significant in size, enterprise stuff, or something like a manufacturing process control software. You know, big and complex. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I understand that for smaller apps where you or even a few people are writing everything, flowcharting isn't really necessary.

It took 9 months to develop our program with several rewrites of key sections (for performance, scalability, userbility and to make it look nicer :) ). I think, looking back, more planning may have saved us time.

I can see uses for UML and flowcharts, even Pseudocode in some cases but never to write the program twice :o

Your project looks interesting. I have a friend that might find that useful. What kind of database does it use? Can it scale? [/b]

Each shooter is one .ini file with a section for each record. It works fine for a few hundred records. We did it that way 'cause of file size, ease of installation, and it's damn hard to test applications on NT4 (school testing, feedback from the project "coordinator" - teacher and Shooting Master) when your account is so restricted (now I have a VB program just to execute files). We accounted for this with the Archive tool that bundles up ancient records into a self-extracting .exe for later...

As I said, few hundred records is fine. A few hundred shooters is fine provided you don't want to see the "All" category (not prety, method is practicle given the nature of Shooting clubs in Australia)

You can add your own targets so it can even be adapted to Pistol shooting or Archery...

Winston:

(Krome and Weenur have beaten me, but you can read my explanation anyway)

First let's get your program looking better (I'm not doing your work btw).

<pre>

[b]program[/b] ConvertDecimalToBinary; 



[b]uses[/b]

    wincrt;



[b]var[/b]

    DeciNumber, Remainder, Whole : Integer; 



[b]begin[/b]

    DeciNumber := 0; 

    Remainder := 0; 

    Whole := 0; 

    write('Please enter a number '); 

    readln(DeciNumber); 

    [b]repeat[/b]

        Remainder := DeciNumber [b]mod[/b] 2; 

        Whole := DeciNumber [b]div[/b] 2; 

        writeln(Remainder); 

        DeciNumber := Whole;

    [b]until[/b] whole = 0; 

[b]end.[/b]

</pre>

OK, now I can read it :)

Now, it prints the binary read from bottom to top.

  • You're correct, there is no need to set the DeciNumber, Remainder or Whole to 0, they will be set during the course of the program. It's just good practise 'cause you will get strange errors if you try to do something to a variable that doesn't have its value set (the complex explanation is that it will have the value currently in memory of its address...)
  • div is Integer Division. That means that the result will be an Integer so that you can assign it to an Integer. If you use / the result could be a Real number so Pascal (being the nice and careful thing it is) won't compile.
  • mod does indeed stand for Modulus which is the same as Remainder. You probably did Mod Maths in Year 8 and have forgotten all about it. It will return the Remainder when dividing the two numbers. Therefore when you divide a number by "2", there can only be 2 results, "0" or "1". Hence you find the binary version of the number.

Programming algorithms is just maths. It helps if you did Advanced Maths in Years 8, 9 and 10. Helps even more if you're a Maths genious :D . I'm not, btw so when all else fails I start drawing on paper or leaving it 'til tomorrow.

Weenur #2:

I doubt he'd have a Pascal text book. And they're damn hard to find nowadays. The teacher might photocopy some sheets for them. Not very good situation.

Krome:

That wouldn't compile. I'd say he's just copied it out. I compiled it to make sure it was remotely correct.

btw, you don't need a begin..end pair around repeat..until

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Grand Master

Krome

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by hornetfighter

Krome:

That wouldn't compile. I'd say he's just copied it out. I compiled it to make sure it was remotely correct.

btw, you don't need a begin..end pair around repeat..until [/b]

If that last statement was for me, then let me say that the coding was all his.. hehehehee I was just trying to put it so it's easier to read... but I guess yours was an excellent way too...

  • 0
Rookie

hornetfighter

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Krome

If that last statement was for me, then let me say that the coding was all his.. hehehehee I was just trying to put it so it's easier to read... but I guess yours was an excellent way too...

The first line was for you referring to the fact that Winston's code was wrong. You fixed it OK too.

My biggest annoyance with Pascal is the need for begin..end everywhere. Using it where it isn't need it will always get a response :D

  • 0
Grand Master

Winston

Posted
  • Author
Posted

nahh teacher made the code i didnt

lol

i dont even noe where did he put that out his ass man..

fark...

all this maths BS

ok say i wanna make an app for adding numbers

how the hell would i noe what the command is

just like mod and div

  • 0
Grand Master

Krome

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by hornetfighter

The first line was for you referring to the fact that Winston's code was wrong. You fixed it OK too.

My biggest annoyance with Pascal is the need for begin..end everywhere. Using it where it isn't need it will always get a response :D

Oh ok... hehehe :) I was a bit clueless when I saw the original posted codes... but after I saw your revised coding, dang it bring back a lot of memory... I started remembering a lot more of Pascal... Thanks for bringing me back to the memory lane.. ehhehe :)

  • 0
Grand Master

Krome

Posted
Posted
Originally posted by Winston

nahh teacher made the code i didnt

lol

i dont even noe where did he put that out his ass man..

fark...

all this maths BS

ok say i wanna make an app for adding numbers

how the hell would i noe what the command is

just like mod and div

Try to find Pascal textbook and they will introdude you to the "reserved words" (meaning Pascal internal command syntax).

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hornetfighter

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Originally posted by Krome

Try to find Pascal textbook and they will introdude you to the "reserved words" (meaning Pascal internal command syntax).

Sorry to pre-empt you again but you raised an interesting point...

If you use the Heinemann (Allan Fowler) text book, there's "railroad" syntax-structure diagrams for Pascal at the back.

(Railroad diagrams are another useless part of our SDD course)

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