Thoughts on Linux

[snowlan]

My first 6 days of Linux:

PROS:

1.There seems to be at least one program for every windows program I have used in my life. Media players, chat programs and more are available offering good if not better options that their windows equivalents.

2.I can easily synchronize bookmarks and iCal Calendars so that switching between my Linux box and windows PC goes in a sec without losing anything. Sure this is mostly thanks to Mozilla, but it proves very valuable to me.

3.Learning Linux is fairly simple.

CONS:

I have only encountered two major problems when using Linux, both are ones that will keep me from converting my main PC to Linux.

1.I cannot use my favorite imaging programs, especially missed is Adobe Photoshop. The Gimp seems to be an excellent piece of software and I have yet to see if it can replace a professional tool such as Photoshop.

2.Few games work on Linux.

For reference I am using Ubuntu 4.10 with some additions. Feel free to discuss this or give me heads up on things I have missed, I am eager to hear what others think. :D

[markwolfe Veteran]

If you have already got a purchased version of Photoshop, it may work under emulation (wine or CodeWeavers CrossOver Office): http://www.codeweavers.com/site/compatibil...p;app_curPos=49

Plus, I have heard that many games do work in Linux. Some support native Linux versions (UT2004 and Doom3), and many more work with Cedega: http://www.transgaming.com/dogamesearch.ph...rking&showall=1

I am not a gamer, so I cannot personally vouch for these.

Also, many Linux users who game will keep XP around just for games (kind of like keeping a PS2 or XBox around) ;)

[kairon]

My opinion is that anyone who says Linux is ready for mainstream now is wrong. I just had a hell of a time installing my ATI drivers. No average joe is gonna go for that. And driver support for some devices and NTFS Write support in general is lacking. But it does have promise I think. They really need to fix the problems with dependencies when your trying to install an application all too often you have to kludge your way through those dependencies problems.

Oh, and it would be nice if they didn't just assume everyone is a programmer and knows about those kinds of things.

[markwolfe Veteran]

Enabling the hardware support on ATI drivers can be unfamiliar to someone with Windows. nVidia, however, has excellent support, but still requires a command line to perform. If this were pre-setup for you (or you could get a friend to help), then it is a non-issue. At this point, the world still codes for Windows, but that is slowly starting to shift to Linux's benefit.

For NTFS support, what do you expect? Micrsoft keeps that a 'secret', so only they really know what is going on deep inside there (and they change it for different releases of NT/XP). To be fair, Windows can't really deal with Linux-formatted partitions, either. On a 100% Linux machine, this is a non-issue, as it only affects dual-booters.

Dependencies are fixed, and have been for a while. apt-get, portage, yum and others are nice managers that resolve these things for you. What were you trying to do that you ran into problems?

By the way, I am not a programmer, and I don't have a tough time with Linux. Nor do my wife, nor any of my four children (ages 10, 7, 4 and 3) have problems using my PC when they need/want to use it.

I think setup can be tricky, depending on hardware. But use is not an issue at all, from the experience of my family.

[MR_Candyman]

  kairon said:

My opinion is that anyone who says Linux is ready for mainstream now is wrong. I just had a hell of a time installing my ATI drivers. No average joe is gonna go for that. And driver support for some devices and NTFS Write support in general is lacking. But it does have promise I think. They really need to fix the problems with dependencies when your trying to install an application all too often you have to kludge your way through those dependencies problems.

Oh, and it would be nice if they didn't just assume everyone is a programmer and knows about those kinds of things.

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I agree it's not read for most people WHO ARE CONVERTING yet. However, Those problems except for ati being driver cows are not really problems at all. NTFS writing would be meaningless to somebody who dosn't use windows. NTFS is a very ugly format and should be shot. MS doesn't release source for it, so it's very hard to adopt good write support. Dependancies aren't USUALLY a problem anymore, as most distros can have a package managment system (even the "hard" slackware and gentoo). They solve dependancies for you. You should always read the readme before you install to make sure you have the dependancies anyways. Don't have to be a programmer, just need to not be ignorant.

[markwolfe Veteran]

  MR_Candyman said:

Don't have to be a programmer, just need to not be ignorant.

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Perhaps "ignorant" is too strong a word. :unsure: While it may be accurate, per the dictionary defintion, I think a word like "experienced" would be better. (Y)

Many people just lack the experience with the Linux way of doing things (and possible options to make life easier) that just aren't second nature to WIndows uers.

[snowlan]

Interesting about the games and photoshop support Mark, I'll do some research and testing to see if this works once I have grown more accustomed to ubuntu linux.

Before Linux takes off I think issues such as program compatibility and program packages has to be made even easier than it currently is. But all signs seem to be pointing the evolution of Linux in the right way. I also think large companies or for example NGO's could be making a good deal by adapting and starting to use Linux instead, they would only need one experienced Linux user to set it all up.

[MR_Candyman]

  markjensen said:

Perhaps "ignorant" is too strong a word.  :unsure:  While it may be accurate, per the dictionary defintion, I think a word like "experienced" would be better. (Y)

Many people just lack the experience with the Linux way of doing things (and possible options to make life easier) that just aren't second nature to WIndows uers.

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exprienced unfotunately changes my meaning for it completely. Ignorant was a little harsh soundng, yes, but failing to read readme files (which are 99.99999% of the time provided) is ignorance...

[KiwiNZ]

Its interesting that many say that ATI drivers are a b----h to add. My current Distro of choice is ubuntu . to add ATI support was simply this .

1. Open Synaptic , and add two new repositories , this took two clicks of the mouse.

2. Refresh

3. Go to the graphics restricted catagory in synaptic ,or list alphabetically .

4. Find and click on ATI and mark to install

5. Click apply

Synaptic now downloads and adds the drivers .

Once completed , open a terminal , type sudo <editor> I use gedit , find and open the x18 config file and change the driver from "ATI" to "fglrx"

Reboot . Done . ATI drivers are applied with acceleration . The whole operation takes about 2 minutes .

Not really that more difficult than applying the drivers to windows which goes like this .

1. Open browser and find the ATI site

2. Locate the drivers you require , usually about 5 clicks in the site .

3. download said drivers .

4. Open Control panel - add remove programs and uninstall current drivers .

5. Reboot .

6. Disable anti virus software .

7. install ATI drivers

8. Reboot.

9. Adjust settings etc .

The only "tricky" bit in ubuntu is the editing of the x file . And that is not a biggie.

Just my thoughts .

Is Linux ready for everyone . A new person who has never used Windows will learn Linux just as easily .

A windows users needs to unlearn a bit and if you dont try to make Linux windows then the learning curve is no harder than say the transition from Windows 95/98 to Windows XP.

[El_Cu_Guy]

  Quote

A windows users needs to unlearn a bit and if you dont try to make Linux windows then the learning curve is no harder than say the transition from Windows 95/98 to Windows XP.

And what a learning curve it is. I thought my head was going to explode when my grandmother (who's not that bright to begin with) couldn't find the START button in WindowsXP after her old Win95 system went belly-up).

I'm not really going to get into how easy one Os is to learn over the other. The simple fact is that Windows is easier to learn because you've probably used it before. Making changes to a Win box is almost like second nature and thus seems to not take very long. Those that switch are often lost and confused and stress out even though the process may only require half as many steps.

Yes Windows lusers do need to unlearn something before switching to any alternative platform. This is why I am a firm believer that not everyone should take a leap of faith and dive right into GNU/Linux. That's not the way to learn how to swim and certainly not the best advice for some people.

Personally I believe that not everyone that wants to switch should or even needs to. What they really need is an alternative collection of software. It doesn't necessarily have to be open source. However, finding a good multiplatform solution is a good start. If you know how to use say Firefox on Windows you're not likely to have too many problems using it on GNU/Linux or OSX.

[Barney T. Administrators]

I am a big Linux advocate and appreciate the learning involved in switching to it. It does require some learning............ just think.

"Once completed , open a terminal , type sudo <editor> I use gedit , find and open the x18 config file and change the driver from "ATI" to "fglrx"

That may sound easy, but most Windows users can not even get to the Terminal command line, nor even perform some simple tasks (to us) like "CD"....... so opening the x18 config file and editiing it is near impossible to the uninitiated.

I think that Linux users need to accept the fact that there is a fairly large learning curve in understanding how Linux works and manipulating settings and configurations. Is this bad? No. On the contrary, if someone wants to delve into Linux, he / she needs to understand there must be a committment to spending time learning it and that there will be some "bumps in the road".

Linux is NOT Windows, and that is what makes it so excellent! I, for one, accepted the challenge and feel so much richer for it!

Barney

[cork1958]

I am trying to learn Linux slowly this time. Unfortunatley, I tried before but dove in head first to quickly. Wasn't even on my computer a week on that atempt. I've had it about a month now, but to me the command lines and stuff like that are just plain stupid. Feels like I should refire my old dos box back up!! I do like the point, click, and do it to it approach of windows.

I WILL keep trying though!

[Barney T. Administrators]

Hi Cork,

Do not give up hope......... there are lots of Linux "flavors" that are similar to the "Windows" experience and use "point and click" option better than other Linux types.

Mandrake, SuSE, and Redhat (Fedora) as well as the newer Ubuntu is really graphically pleasing. Even the installation is quite painless. There are some excellent things, as well as not so excellent things with each disto. So, you have to try one and see if it works for you. If not, try another. Soon, you'll find what is right for you. :yes:

Barney

[kairon]

  barneyt said:

That may sound easy, but most Windows users can not even get to the Terminal command line, nor even perform some simple tasks (to us) like "CD"....... so opening the x18 config file and editiing it is near impossible to the uninitiated.

Quite a bit of the commands resemble DOS commands, like "CD" for example.

[markwolfe Veteran]

  kairon said:

Quite a bit of the commands resemble DOS commands, like "CD" for example.

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True, but you generally need to find people over 30 that have used computers since the "old days" of steam-powered computers to find people with experience in this.

Windows 3.11 would typically start up automatically for casual users (by an entry in the autoexec.bat file), so many users never saw the command line, really.

For many people a command line seems strange and archaic.

[Barney T. Administrators]

Mark is right. I remember learning some DOS years ago..... when I was using DOS 5.0. That was light years ago, computer time. Today's generation has little use for DOS since it has been phased out of most new Windows OSs (NT 5 and above)....... and there is little learning of it.

Barney

[Knight']

  kairon said:

My opinion is that anyone who says Linux is ready for mainstream now is wrong. I just had a hell of a time installing my ATI drivers. No average joe is gonna go for that. And driver support for some devices and NTFS Write support in general is lacking. But it does have promise I think. They really need to fix the problems with dependencies when your trying to install an application all too often you have to kludge your way through those dependencies problems.

Oh, and it would be nice if they didn't just assume everyone is a programmer and knows about those kinds of things.

585040762[/snapback]

Well, it's simple enough with X.Org 6.7, though - as of yet - I haven't seen anyone get them to work stable with 6.8 :pinch: Perhaps you should try a different X server...Thank-God I have an nVidia card :laugh:

Problems with dependencies' are really a thing of the past, as least if you're using a modern distro'. Portage (for Gentoo) is my favorite, or indeed the original Ports system in *BSD's, does all the hard work for me! Apt for Debian based distros' is also pretty good... if you swing the debian way that is ... :shifty:

NTFS write support? I believe this is possible now, check it out! Or you could install Windows on FAT32 to make sure it's accessable.

Edited December 5, 2004 by Knight'

[Mathiasdm]

  markjensen said:

True, but you generally need to find people over 30 that have used computers since the "old days" of steam-powered computers to find people with experience in this.

Windows 3.11 would typically start up automatically for casual users (by an entry in the autoexec.bat file), so many users never saw the command line, really.

For many people a command line seems strange and archaic.

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Well, there are actually young people that used the DOS command line!

We have this really old laptop (82 Mb harddrive, 1 Mb RAM) with Windows 3.10. I (17 years old) tried to create .bat files in command line :p (Never really got that far)

A girl from my class (imagine the shock when she said this) once started to talk about how she missed DOS. She said it was much more stable than Windows XP.

I was like: "Wha? You used DOS?"

[Knight']

  barneyt said:

I am a big Linux advocate and appreciate the learning involved in switching to it. It does require some learning............ just think.

"Once completed , open a terminal , type sudo <editor> I use gedit , find and open the x18 config file and change the driver from "ATI" to "fglrx"

That may sound easy, but most Windows users can not even get to the Terminal command line, nor even perform some simple tasks (to us) like "CD"....... so opening the x18 config file and editiing it is near impossible to the uninitiated.

I think that Linux users need to accept the fact that there is a fairly large learning curve in understanding how Linux works and manipulating settings and configurations. Is this bad? No. On the contrary, if someone wants to delve into Linux, he / she needs to understand there must be a committment to spending time learning it and that there will be some "bumps in the road".

Linux is NOT Windows, and that is what makes it so excellent! I, for one, accepted the challenge and feel so much richer for it!

Barney

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Hey mate, why do you use Gedit from a terminal? Why not use a simple editor like nano or perhaps even vi-m which work in terminal and won't depend on you being in a Desktop Environment!

[El_Cu_Guy]

  Quote

Quite a bit of the commands resemble DOS commands, like "CD" for example.

Quite a bit of DOS commands resemble Unix commands, with a few from CP/M.

  Quote

True, but you generally need to find people over 30 that have used computers since the "old days" of steam-powered computers to find people with experience in this.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

  Quote

Today's generation has little use for DOS since it has been phased out of most new Windows OSs (NT 5 and above)....... and there is little learning of it.

DOS, yes. The command line, no. You'll still find, in many reference books, requirements that you drop into the command prompt. That's command prompt not DOS.

  Quote

Well, there are actually young people that used the DOS command line!

Yeah I ain't no old fogey!

[markwolfe Veteran]

  El_Cu_Guy said:

  me earlier... said:

True, but you generally need to find people over 30 that have used computers since the "old days" of steam-powered computers to find people with experience in this.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

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:p

It wasn't anything derogatory or personal!

I, myself, cut my computing teeth on an old acoustic modem (where you had to carefully place the phone handset in foam cups on the modem) on a simple terminal with paper-only output. Then used a Commodore PET CP/M machine to teach myself BASIC back around 1980.

I am no stranger to the command prompt, nor do I harbor ill will to those present (and using computers) back in the day before computers came with hard drives - for I am one of those people. :rofl:

It was just a generalized observation on the way computing is today.

[nocture]

all I need to go linux only, is MS Office running without any problems on linux...

Please dont say OpenOffice is the best, because it suck. It cannot match any of my needs especially not its spreadsheet which is nearly useless! :ninja:

Other than that, Linux is great.. and for the complaints about lack of NTFS writing support - I dont miss it :) ReiserFS or Ext3 works just fine for me :whistle:

[markwolfe Veteran]

Firstly, OpenOffice.org does not "suck". It is very good, and supplies more features than typical users will need. You may have specific needs that it does not meet, but that just means it lacks the feature(s) you require.

Secondly, Microsoft Office can run in Linux. You have options to do this, including CrossOver Office or one of various Virtual Machines, such as Win4Lin or VMware.

[snowlan]

Recently I read an article in the Economist about software, and somewhere it was stated that in reality most of the options/functions that are supplied with Microsoft Office are never used by the normal customer. And as you put it Mark, OpenOffice supplies more than normally needed. I wouldn't go as far as saying OpenOffice sucks because in fact it matches the common users' needs, but maybe it just doesn't have all the functionality of Microsoft Office.

It's a pity CrossOver Office is not free. :(

[nocture]

  markjensen said:

Firstly, OpenOffice.org does not "suck".  It is very good, and supplies more features than typical users will need.  You may have specific needs that it does not meet, but that just means it lacks the feature(s) you require.

Secondly, Microsoft Office can run in Linux.  You have options to do this, including CrossOver Office or one of various Virtual Machines, such as Win4Lin or VMware.

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I tried emulate it, but objects won't work, and thats a bit of a problem here, since I need Equation in Math and Physics class.. which leads me to my second problem. OO's spreadsheet. For an example - I tried to do a logarithmic graph which I needed for a physics report. It couldnt even handle that, and its just simple things as that which I need.