.msstyle releases illegal?

[KoL Veteran]

to take a copywrited  file  edit it to your chooseing then uploading as your own or even selling it ..thats a different than simply installing an antivirus software......

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We are not saying that the msstyle is our, we are saying that the graphics are our graphics.

Its the same with WwindowBlinds. .wba is stardock the graphics are our graphics.

[Kane]

Installing any software changes the way the OS looks as well as the way it works.

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the way it looks. you mean like an icon in the system tray? :laugh:

[PhenomTT]

the point being that theres a few claiming foul because of stardocks auto msstyles porter..all the while infringeing on MS copywrites...talk about taking hipocracy to new levels .. yesh....

[Kane]

the point being that theres a few claiming foul because of stardocks auto msstyles porter..all the while infringeing on MS copywrites...talk about taking hipocracy to new levels .. yesh....

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IMO i dont see whats the big deal on either subject to be honest

[Yazoo]

the point being that theres a few claiming foul because of stardocks auto msstyles porter..all the while infringeing on MS copywrites...talk about taking hipocracy to new levels .. yesh....

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well those people are just fanboys, live and let live, last I heard we still could make our own choices.

[PhenomTT]

i respect the work you put out for your graphics .im not debateing the graphics just the file format.... but i know that stardock wasent intending to steal ms styles .. but to offer you all a tool to add to your user base ...

but ive seen many who arent even authors attacking each other over this crap...its sad .....

[PhenomTT]

i didnt start this thread but i was attempting to answer the question at hand .... ;)

[matt0]

the point being that theres a few claiming foul because of stardocks auto msstyles porter..all the while infringeing on MS copywrites...talk about taking hipocracy to new levels .. yesh....

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You're the one who keeps bringing that up in this thread, I didnt mention anything about it in the topic.

[Lexcyn]

This is pontless.

Why we care if its illegal or not?? Microsoft doesnt care.

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It is pointless. Weather it is illegal or not, I doub't Microsoft is going to do anything about it. They haven't in the past, and I doubt they will in the future.

[PhenomTT]

You're the one who keeps bringing that up in this thread, I didnt mention anything about it in the topic.

you are correct....while trying to answer the posts here about the legalitys i have unintentionaly changed the focus of the threads intent...for that i appologize...

i mistook this thread to be an extension of the autoporter debate..

[KayMan2K]

Dig Freedom.......hmmm you better explain that to the music industry then....

music has been pirated since pc's were built ..but since it took them a year or so to actually start acting on it .. they must have forfited all their rights....

i mean if your asertation of the law is correct .... :woot:

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Your comparison is flawed. I fail to see, whatsoever, how using an existing file (MSStyles) as a template for a new file (new skin) -OR- how modifying a DLL file to not check for a digital signature has anything to do with copying unaltered songs just to avoid purchasing them. Nor is it comparable to creating a crack to bypass registration routines of a program because the OS has already been purchased (well.. that's another issue) and there is no MS product that will unlock the feature... so just make a few changes yourself.

Performing either of the two actions mentioned earlier are not pirating. They might be unethical and illegal.. but not pirating. Pirating is the act of obtaining something for free (breaking copyright law) when you can purchase it. Microsoft is not offering a patched version of UXTheme.dll or an SDK for the MsStyles format. There is no pirating going on here.

Microsoft has lost their ability to sue for people making themes (editing the MSStyles file) because they have not enforced the copyright of the file format. The RIAA is enforcing their copyright and always has taken a harsh legal tone with bootleg copies (where possible).

The point is though... Microsoft just doesn't care. It isn't harming their corporate image (if anything helping them) and doesn't alter any very important file in Windows. It is one thing to be editing and reverse engineering shell32.dll and other key system files, to figure out how the OS is working,... but its just the skinning engine woo hoo. The end user can slighly alter Windows to make it look different.. ok, whatever. It really isn't harming anyone.

Pirating music is harming someone, the recording labels and RIAA. However profitable they may already be...

[#Michael]

Alrighty people....where shall we start? First off, take some time and study the US DMCA and you will see why modifying a .msstyle and releasing is illegal. Microsoft owns copyrights on the codes to windows xp. Not on parts of it that they or you deem important but all it. That includes the uxtheme and luna.msstyle. When you take either file, modify them, release them on the internet, claim them as your own, you have violated MS copyright as their intellictual property rights under the US DMCA.

wasn't microsoft a part of the GUI oplympics w/Stardock...i think they were...so that would put that to rest.

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No, MS was never a sponosor of the GUI olympics. The olympics also never included any msstyles as a section. http://www.guiolympics.com/

When TGTSoft first released the patch it was borderline illegal, but Microsoft turned a blind eye. Later TGTSoft had a meeting with Microsoft, and made a presentation if I remember correctly, and Microsoft was okay with it.

Aparently, Microsoft doesn't care as long as they don't have to take support calls for 3rd party themes. Themeing the .msstyles files is something microsoft has wanted since they started working on XP, the only reason they didn't go through with it is because they didn't want to open up a line of tech support for that.

Also, editing a msstyle theme is not illegal. Microsoft is not losing money over this, so they really don't care.

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I'd love to see some proof that tgtsoft ever had a meeting with Microsoft and made a deal with them to continue to patch the uxtheme engine and circumvent the WFP.

I just want to add, that its LAW that if someone does not go after a copyright, they forfit all rights to that copyright, so to end all this fightting.. BECAUSE MICROSOFT CHOICE NOT TO BRING LEGAL ACTION AGINIST TGT SOFT, *.MSSTYLE THEMERS, UXTHEME.DLL HACKERS, MICROSOFT HAS FORFITED ALL RIGHTS THAT IT MIGHT OF HAD TO THE FORMAT, so don't worry about it guys its 100% legal, and calm down. BIG MS isn't going to go after you, its too late, ms had something like 1 year to begin legal actions before the US law forfitted its rights, and XP's been released for what 3 years now? Even if MS wanted to, its too late and they would'nt even get past the filing lady. either way, TGT Soft had a meeting with microsft a LONGGGGG time ago, and showed ms how there doing it, and MS gave them the green light to keep doing it, MS WANTED THEMEING in XP, just they didn't want to waste more money on a themeing support line, so they made sure the NORMAL NON-GEEKY USER couldn't install themes, think of it this way.... Has MS made it harder to make mstyles? No, they could of, but they didn't.

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Take some time and actually read what the DMCA actually says about intellictuall property rights before you speak. Copyright laws in the US exist anywhere from 5-8 years from time of application (I know for I own 3 copyrights on works I have had done for me) so there is plenty of time left.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Edit: If it was breaking copyright, would ms have worked with TGT Soft on StyleXP?

Microsoft has never worked with TGT Soft (to my knowledge anyway).

MSStyles aren't illegal IMO.

However, they ARE derivatives of Luna.msstyles which is a copyrighted file.

So if I took, for instance, the Windows XP kernal, changed some bits and re-distributed it, is that legal? I'm not sure. That's how a lot of boot screens ARE distributed btw.

But the whole premise of this topic I think is problematic - is it illegal? Who's to say. Microsoft has had 3 years to weigh in. We do know they don't approve of msstyles being used by third parties but that's a far cry from them going after third parties who use them or create software that use them.

My personal opinion is that what you do on your own computer is your business.

[PhenomTT]

well said ...

[#Michael]

My personal opinion is that what you do on your own computer is your business.

What should have been said 5 pages ago......but I enjoy these kinds of arguments. It's not about which format is better or worse but what is right and wrong. I personally chose to what is right.

And with that, we have 10" of snow on the ground I am going to go clear off the driveway so my roomates can get in.

[Trunten]

It's also been said that .msstyles wont work on the longhorn version, and everyone will have to use windowblinds.

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Whether it's by using a hacked file again and/or with another program again, there will still be ways to continue themeing in Longhorn.

And correct me if I am wrong, but I think Longhorn still uses the msstyle format. Or at least it was if it's not. I remember when Slate first came out. It was an msstyle. What can't be done is using Longhorn msstyles in XP and XP msstyles in Longhorn.

Edited January 6, 2005 by Trunten

[OmART]

There are many programs that OVERWRITE system32 dll files incase you dont have them, according to some people thoughts thats illegal also cause it MODIFIED windows files (I didnt say code)... And I dont see them getting sued.

Frogboy... ,you shouldn't try to take an underground comunity like this as professional as you wanted, if everything was right, and about legal stuff like some foreigners see the US when a kid sues for a mosquito that was copyrighted and bit an apple in his backyard, maybe you wouldnt even have born.

When stuff like this happens on Capitalism Societies, it makes me wonder why doesnt the "Benefit for yourself without hurting" and the "Bigger Animal Dominates" societies persisted

And it so lame how even FROGBOY ported a inspirat skin that was an "illegal file" at first to windowblinds, and submitted by himself to a monopolized website full of old people ;[

And I dont hate frogboy itself, I hate the way he thinks about stuff sometimes to "conquer" the world

[Trunten]

Regardless of being illegal or not, if the whole creating and using msstyles was such a big deal, I am sure Microsoft would've gone after as many sites as it could that distibutes them. Neowin has good close relations with them. If they didn't want us to have them, than we wouldn't have ever had these theme related sections. But there's not much that can ever be done to stop someone from using something if they really want to.

[Malisk]

If it was illegal then so would installing software that changes the way the default OS worked.  In other words any software.  Well we know that ain't true. 

If mssstyles was illegal then MS would have made a move already.

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No, the difference is that you're circumventing encryptions by patching a file, which isn't allowed according to DMCA.

Well, at least us who aren't using TGTSoft's thing. If you are, I'm not sure.

I agree that Microsoft won't care though, but that's not what this thread is about.

[ChrisArr]

I will chime in with the "who cares?" people. Even if they pursued people with C&Ds I'd still ResHack as much as I wanted to.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Uh, Koopey, did you even read what I wrote?

Let me repost it:

MSStyles aren't illegal IMO.

However, they ARE derivatives of Luna.msstyles which is a copyrighted file.

So if I took, for instance, the Windows XP kernal, changed some bits and re-distributed it, is that legal? I'm not sure. That's how a lot of boot screens ARE distributed btw.

But the whole premise of this topic I think is problematic - is it illegal? Who's to say. Microsoft has had 3 years to weigh in. We do know they don't approve of msstyles being used by third parties but that's a far cry from them going after third parties who use them or create software that use them.

My personal opinion is that what you do on your own computer is your business.

Which part of this was unclear and could somehow be turned into me sayiing that msstyles are illegal?

Also, I have seen NO ONE claim that you won't be able to skin Longhorn using some free mechanism. What has been said is that the XP msstyles won't work under Longhorn unless they get converted to some new Longhorn msstyles type format. Kol and others have also pointed this out.

Sometimes I feel like people will read what I write, then pretend I didn't write that and insert some Evil capitalistic 2 dimensional character fantasy text in its place.

[Eli]

Uh, Koopey, did you even read what I wrote?

Let me repost it:

Which part of this was unclear and could somehow be turned into me sayiing that msstyles are illegal?

Also, I have seen NO ONE claim that you won't be able to skin Longhorn using some free mechanism.  What has been said is that the XP msstyles won't work under Longhorn unless they get converted to some new Longhorn msstyles type format. Kol and others have also pointed this out.

Sometimes I feel like people will read what I write, then pretend I didn't write that and insert some Evil capitalistic 2 dimensional character fantasy text in its place.

I hate you Cryptic_Night and I hope you fail at school! SANTA ISN'T REAL!

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Now Now Frogboy.....don't need to be mean. :whistle: :whistle: :p

[Frogboy Administrators]

LOL.

Similarly, when I say "You have a nice dog."

What I really must mean is:

"Give me your dog! I'll harvest its organs and sell them because I need money for my private jet you loser!"

The key is being able to read the REAL meaning between the lines. That's how "Msstyles are not illegal IMO" becomes "MSStyles are illegal and even as I type this the police are on their way to arrest you!"

[Eli]

In my own opinion. MSStyles are illegal yet no one really cares. I'm sure big Ol' M probably even applauds our efforts on creating our own skins and is probably taking notes on what we like in our skins and what we don't like. There is probably represtenatives right now looking on how they can make their interface enjoyable to the human eye, simple yet unique. Why not eh? If a person can mod a system file to make Windows look graphically appealing to them so that they will enjoy working on Windows, why not let them do it?

Example: A user likes the Mac interface. Microsoft is in compition with Mac. Why would Microsoft go and SUE the creator of a Mac based theme for Windows XP if they will still buy the copy of Windows XP in the first place? Who cares if the user mods it to look like a macintosh. It's still Microsoft's product they purchased.

[Trunten]

uhm. technically... music has been pirated ever since the cassette was invented. :sleep:

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Another good point. And supposedly recording stuff off of TV with a VCR is illegal too, but people keep doing it.

The key is being able to read the REAL meaning between the lines.

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I saw a cactus on the way to work today, I told my toilet to get a job, called my xbox a ######, I'm out of wolfnipplechips, my neopwi was stolen by shifty ninjas, and I can't find my lahrd. Am I a bad person?