Brief Essay on Fanboyism

[Veedems Veteran]

I wrote this to get some feelings out, that I have held, about the Firefox community, especially the branch of it that lurks around Neowin. I'm hoping that the small foot I have into the community will help to start spread this message of tolerance and respect:

Common sense, in the computing world, tells you to use whatever program you feel best accomplishes the goal you are trying to obtain. No one tool is perfect for everyone on any single goal, but they all manage to come together and cover a vast majority of users out there. Those who still feel jilted, usually program their own stuff, as I am still slowly doing with NexPad. It's a nice idea, but it's being trampled on by the immature, unable minds of extremist Firefox fan boys who do nothing but fly that icon in your face over and over until you feel bad for using anything else.

It's no secret that I use Firefox. I have a decently popular optimized build that I, myself, release daily. In general, I really like Firefox. It does what I need and that's all I ask. Sure, I have even recommended it to other people and have downloaded it to their machines for use in some pretty severe cases of corruption of their browser of choice. I let them know what I am using, tell them I use it and like it, and that's it. I let them make the choice because, after all, I want them to be able to accomplish the goals they want. I haven't converted many people, but my mom and dad now use the Fox and they like it. It works, simple as that.

My sisters use another browser and I don't seem to mind, even if it is slightly outdated (MSN 7). It does what they need and I respect that. However, ask yourself something: If they were to go to a "tech forum" and ask a question about their browser of choice, how likely do you think it is that someone will tell them to use Firefox? The problem is, it is WAY too likely to happen. At the site I work for, Neowin.net, it became a large enough problem that a thread had to be created, in our dedicated Web Browser Support Forum, just to warn users of the complete lack of tolerance we have for such behavior. In extreme circumstances, an account could be completely disabled for such offenses.

Some readers, right now, may not understand what the big deal is. However, imagine it in a different light. Imagine you owned a 1998 Ford and you needed to bring it to the mechanic. Upon bringing the car in to the shop, the mechanic ignores you as you speak and simply yells out, in your face, to ?get a Dodge?. He may even call you a ?n00b? or, in more actual wording, an ?idiot? for driving a Ford and not the Dodge. So, now, instead of walking out with a problem corrected and a, once again, peaceful experience with your Ford, you now go home, after being insulted, with the problem still in existence. The world just doesn?t work that way.

What can we do? Education is the answer. I can?t possibly sit here and expect anyone?s attitude to completely change because of my words. It is simply an improbable and silly thought. However, with that said, we need to start spreading the concept of mature product selection and respect. Firefox is a great product, without a doubt, but it doesn?t suit everyone?s needs and that?s perfectly okay. Internet Explorer, Opera, Safari, K-Meleon, etc, are all perfectly fine choices for a user if they feel their browsing needs will be met. So please, fellow Firefox users and lovers, try to keep these thoughts in mind. We need to be here to show how powerful this community can be, though; we need to be gentle with that power. We all need to show respect towards the choices people make, from their hair color to their Web Browser. You may not like it, but it?s their web experience and not yours. Please remember this. Let?s prove, together, that we are all better than this.

[amitsaraf32]

I couldn't agree with you more. It takes a certain level of maturity to understand and respect another person's opinion, though.

Not too many people have learnt that patience and tolerance are virtues. What the article says is restricted to the Firefox community, but I think largely I have observed this kind of immature behaviour in other fan clubs on the net too.

[Veedems Veteran]

I couldn't agree with you more.  It takes a certain level of maturity to understand and respect another person's opinion, though. 

Not too many people have learnt that patience and tolerance are virtues.  What the article says is restricted to the Firefox community, but I think largely I have observed this kind of immature behaviour in other fan clubs on the net too.

585371913[/snapback]

Yes, I could have gone a lot broader, but this is something personal to me, so I thought I would just vent a little. I love using Firefox, but as I have said, when the fanboyism makes me want to stop using and building it, there is an issue.

[arrrgh]

Good points and should give lots of people something to think about.

However, I don't understand why anyone would stop using a product they like because some of the users act like immature spammers. Like you said, it's not a Firefox problem. Pretty much all successful products have similar sects, Microsoft, Lunix, Apple, IE, Opera, ATI, NVIDIA, etc. etc. With that ideology the only solution I see is becoming a hermit and living off berries, though I know couple very pesty vegans too...

[David Scaife]

I agree with you on that... however, one point I'd like to raise is this: how can one tell the difference between when another is using a browser because they choose to, and when they are using a browser because they feel that they have to? This question is mainly directed at IE users, of course, but it can apply to other browsers too if someone forced them to use a different browser. It is good to at least have the suggestion to switch browsers in case they are in the latter category; if they are using their browser because they choose to, then there's no harm done.

That said, the overly zealous attitude that many Firefox users have assumed is going too far. Suggesting that a user tries Firefox, and telling a user to use Firefox are two very different things.

--

Edited for formatting.

[Dassa]

I agree with you on that... however, one point I'd like to raise is this: how can one tell the difference between when another is using a browser because they choose to, and when they are using a browser because they feel that they have to?

585372172[/snapback]

If they come to you with a problem, point them in the direction of the solution. As a side note, tell them that similar problems could be avoided by a relatively painless application change, and that [insert product here] is your recomendation. Ask if your fix worked, and then ask them to contact you if they're interested in switching applications.

It respects peoples' right to choice, informs them of your solution, and at the same time it provides them with the solution they were looking for.

This sends a clear message: You haven't called them ignorant by telling them they've made a mistake by using the application they do, instead you've informed them that there's a better way. You'll be respected for it, especially if they go through with the application swap and enjoy an improvement.

My two (Canadian) cents.

[Veedems Veteran]

If they come to you with a problem, point them in the direction of the solution.  As a side note, tell them that similar problems could be avoided by a relatively painless application change, and that [insert product here] is your recomendation.  Ask if your fix worked, and then ask them to contact you if they're interested in switching applications.

It respects peoples' right to choice, informs them of your solution, and at the same time it provides them with the solution they were looking for.

This sends a clear message:  You haven't called them ignorant by telling them they've made a mistake by using the application they do, instead you've informed them that there's a better way.  You'll be respected for it, especially if they go through with the application swap and enjoy an improvement.

My two (Canadian) cents.

585376134[/snapback]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

[David Scaife]

...which is basically what I meant by the last two lines of my post (which, funnily enough, wasn't quoted).

[Dassa]

...which is basically what I meant by the last two lines of my post (which, funnily enough, wasn't quoted).

585376150[/snapback]

I apologize -- I wasn't directing my post at you, only responding quickly to a sentence that I (accidently) took out of context. :blush:

[mojomonkee]

well said. fanboyism in any form is obnoxious, though. you could do a find/replace for "firefox" and replace it with any of the following:

Apple

Microsoft

*nix

NVidia

ATI

Intel

AMD

monkeys

[lav-chan]

Fanaticism is fine as long as it's respectful. As long as Opera fans respect that Firefox has its strengths and Firefox fans respect that Opera has its strengths and everybody respects that everybody else has different needs, everything is great. Put up as many advertisements for Firetruck as you can possibly fit in your sig and avatar and title and posts, but don't be a big jerk about it.

What i think is more annoying than fanaticism is people whining about other people arguing, though. Some of us like to debate the merits of our favourite software, you know. It usually gets us no-where, but then again so does everything else we do on the Internet. So... let the Firetruck vs Opera people have their fun, as long as they aren't being jerks about it. Let them argue for months on end. You don't help anybody by coming in every three posts and going 'GOD JESE LETS ALL JUST AGREE TO DISGAREE', because nobody wants to do that and nobody's listening to you anyway.... <_<

[digen]

If they come to you with a problem, point them in the direction of the solution.  As a side note, tell them that similar problems could be avoided by a relatively painless application change, and that [insert product here] is your recomendation.  Ask if your fix worked, and then ask them to contact you if they're interested in switching applications.

It respects peoples' right to choice, informs them of your solution, and at the same time it provides them with the solution they were looking for.

This sends a clear message:  You haven't called them ignorant by telling them they've made a mistake by using the application they do, instead you've informed them that there's a better way.  You'll be respected for it, especially if they go through with the application swap and enjoy an improvement.

My two (Canadian) cents.

585376134[/snapback]

Well said dude,I've learnt quite a lot over the last 2 days. :)

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

I agree 100%

also:

[+M2Ys4U Subscriber¹]

edit: doublepost

[ZZOOzzoo]

I agree 100%

also:

585378851[/snapback]

That picture really needs to be removed from Neowin before fanboyism is gone.

[IceDogg]

Nice post Bangbang. I have maybe done a little of this myself, not calling names or anything to that degree, but being over zealous at times. I think it's just because you like the product (ie. Firefox) so much and want others to enjoy it as much as you have. I think most don't mean to be jerks about it, I know I didn't. So, I'm sure your post will have results. The problem will not go away but it will have results. Thanks for the prospective.

I also agree with you Lav. A good debate can be educational to the readers.. as the sides talk about what one product can do that the other can't. I have found some of these threads useful, because I can see what the pros and cons are of a product before I try it. Although not always accurate they are helpful. And give you a place to start.

[revvo]

Why are you surprised that in a tech forum, you'd have replies saying "go for firefox?"

Seriously. Tech people in a tech forum will look at tech specs, compare them (not necessarly showing it) and tell you which will do the job you want to do at its best.

For the average joe, the risks of screwing up anything is lower with Firefox or Opera than with IE and don't try to bs me with the "shut up FF fanboy" because it's not because of fanboys that Firefox is an increasingly popular browser, admit that. It does a good job at doing what IE also does.

There's a difference between "good" and "better". You want to avoid problems/headaches? They will reccomend you firefox and there's a reason why.

A lot of tech guys are fedup of cleaning the computers of their friends and family members because of the crap that installed via IE's activex and its default settings. At the risk of going through that, they'll avoid the problems by reccomending and/or installing a browser that does a better job at doing what they want to do.

I agree the zealots will say one line "get firefox" without any ****ing helpful information. Those kind of posts shouldn't even get tolerated if you ask me.

But, can you blame them for blindly reccomending something they know its better?

Maybe if the average user tried to be less lazy and know how to navigate, maybe then we'd (yes, we) be more willing to put effort into explaining.

my sqrt(2*2) cents

[Alex Suraci]

Why are you surprised that in a tech forum, you'd have replies saying "go for firefox?"

Seriously. Tech people in a tech forum will look at tech specs, compare them (not necessarly showing it) and tell you which will do the job you want to do at its best.

For the average joe, the risks of screwing up anything is lower with Firefox or Opera than with IE and don't try to bs me with the "shut up FF fanboy" because it's not because of fanboys that Firefox is an increasingly popular browser, admit that. It does a good job at doing what IE also does.

There's a difference between "good" and "better". You want to avoid problems/headaches? They will reccomend you firefox and there's a reason why.

A lot of tech guys are fedup of cleaning the computers of their friends and family members because of the crap that installed via IE's activex and its default settings. At the risk of going through that, they'll avoid the problems by reccomending and/or installing a browser that does a better job at doing what they want to do.

I agree the zealots will say one line "get firefox" without any ****ing helpful information. Those kind of posts shouldn't even get tolerated if you ask me.

But, can you blame them for blindly reccomending something they know its better?

Maybe if the average user tried to be less lazy and know how to navigate, maybe then we'd (yes, we) be more willing to put effort into explaining.

my sqrt(2*2) cents

586130736[/snapback]

I think that's what he meant by that essay. :) Bravo, bangbang! That's exactly what I've been thinking. I think I'll switch to Firefox again tonight.. :p

[Crimson Behelit]

Great post. Over in the Linux forums here on Neowin people like to do the very same thing with distros. If someone has a problem with Mandrake, the 'solution' is to switch to Ubuntu... not very helpful :|

[sachleen]

I agree with what you said. That gave me something to think about. Now that I think about it, I might have said something like "Get firefox, its a lot better" in a few posts myself. :( Damn, You really put me thinkin.

[struct]

[...]

586130736[/snapback]

you have to remember that not everyone that browses the web has the same set of requirements for a browser. my mother for instance would get confused as hell if tabbed browsing was shoved in her face. she gets worried when she doesn't see the big blue 'e,' because that's all she knows. I'm not going to argue that firefox would probably result in fewer security problems vs IE, both being at default security settings because at the present time it's probably true.

however, setting her up with antivirus, several antispyware applications, higher security settings, and automatic updates will result in just as rich a experience in IE as she would get with anything else. actually probably better, since she doesn't have to worry about patching.

so just don't forget there is probably more of my mom's out there then there is me's. IE is all that the mom's of the world need at the moment.

[Septimius]

Fanaticism is fine as long as it's respectful. As long as Opera fans respect that Firefox has its strengths and Firefox fans respect that Opera has its strengths and everybody respects that everybody else has different needs, everything is great.

585376264[/snapback]

Very true, and if things were as they should be, that would happen. But since it isn't and they aren't, the more pressing question seems to be, how to remedy the situation, taking for granted that certain people are always going to be rude about it?

Education through example? I don't know.

As for the main issue, good article. I'm a Firefox user, but not to any fanatical extent. Most of my friends use IE, and unless I hear something along the lines of, "wow, I wish I could open all my pages in one window" (wherein a suggestion/recommendation might be appropriate), my philosophy is to live and let live on the matter. ;)

[BajiRav]

I think Firefox fanatism has seen its peak in Nov04 to 1st.Qtr.05 People are getting rational now and starting to realize that its just another browser. You like it you use it, and let others do what they want. Its what Apple-MS, Win-Lin debaters realized (hoping they did :D) sometime back.

This will happen with every new product coming to market, people get emotionally attached :blink: to "products" which are no more than simple tools to achieve means.

Just wait for IE7 beta to come out and there will be another round of this. :whistle:

[IceDogg]

Just wait for IE7 beta to come out and there will be another round of this.  :whistle:

586131256[/snapback]

Oh geez, please no! LOL but I'm sure your right. I for one am going to give it a try. I like Firefox, but I learned my lesson, with being to loyal, a long time ago. Netscape taught me that one. I was very loyal so they rewarded me by selling out to AOL.. that's when I dropped them and started using IE. Granted they might not have had a choice, but to sell.

Looking forward to what IE7 has to offer, and maybe push others to do more too. Like Firefox and Opera. I have said it before, the more browsers the more chance to have one the way you want it. I think it's a good thing to have Opera and IE and whoever else. GOOD!