The downfall of Volkswagen

By San Diego
in The Neobahn

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Grand Master

Argote

Posted
Posted (edited)
The Bora and the Jetta are the same vehicle.  It is called the Bora in Europe, and the Jetta in North America.

Nevermind the new Jetta/Bora... the new GLI is where it's at.

2050109.003.Mini1L.jpg

Audi's 2.0T FSI engine @ 200HP, 207 ft. lbs @ 1800RPM.

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Edit: NM my brother just explained.... The Jetta has been renamed Bora here in Mexico for this next Gen

http://www.vw.com.mx/CWE/home/HOM001Inicio/

Edited by ArtOf_War
Mentor

macstorm

Posted
Posted
It pains me to show this as I am a loyal VW owner myself. However, after viewing the all new Jetta V in person inside and out, I have to say that these photos are right on with what I think of the car. Not only was it overpriced, $27,000 which gets you the lousy 2.5l engine, leather, sunroof and a couple other notables, but it had more Japanese styling than VW has ever produced before. To prove my point of Jap styling, enjoy:

CorrollaVsJettaFront.jpg

CorrollaVsJettaRear.jpg

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I think you're wrong, the "japanese styling" is derived from german cars...

Germans are always one step ahead about tech ;)

Mentor

San Diego

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I think you're wrong, the "japanese styling" is derived from german cars...

Germans are always one step ahead about tech ;)

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Obviously you can't see that picture. The Corolla came out a couple years before the MKV Jetta. Hmm...who's copying who?

Enthusiast

Roofy

Posted
Posted
im not so sure bout that statement

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The Germans are not at all ahead of technological innovation. Germans, along with their BMW's and Mercedes Benz introduce technology which is unproven and untested in the automobile market. This was clearly obvious with the BMW 7 series navigation 'joystick'. It's considered a nuisance by most automotive experts. It was never fully developed and tested. New unproven technology which may or may not work out as predicted. Most of the 'innovations' introduced are never street and market tested.

The Japanese 'innovations' on the other hand are environment tested. Take for example the Acura RL real-time navigation system. This technology was postponed more than once, however once unveiled acclaimed as a automotive brekthrough. The Japanese take more time and consideration before unveiling the so called 'new technology'

Mentor

macstorm

Posted
Posted

I meant "the styling" or design itself ;)

Talking about similarities, only 'circle eyes' from headlights n tail ones are similar. Look at the shape of Jetta tail lights, its square design.

Jetta's rear view shows, by far, a well finished 'square' style.

Grand Master

linsook

Posted
Posted
I meant "the styling" or design itself?;))

Talking about similarities, only 'circle eyes' from headlights n tail ones are similar. Look at the shape of Jetta tail lights, its square design.

Jetta's rear view shows, by far, a well finished 'square' style.

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riiiiiiiiiiiiiight... well if you put it that way... yea they had serveral years to tweak the corolla design. hey, maybe you can find an older european design that the corolla was modeled after.

Grand Master

Boz

Posted
Posted
Don't speak before you do your research. The latest out of the Nissan/Infiniti stable, the M. 4.5 liter V8 with 4 doors. The latest from Lexus, the GS. Yet another V8 in a 4-door sedan. I'll stop there...

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But don't forget that only in 2005/2006 models. Nothing before that was on the market from Jap cars. Another thing to keep in mind is that german cars have also V10, V12 engines. Did you see a V10 on a Jap car? I don't think so. On the other hand, classic example of V10 application is the VW Touraeg.

So, back to your claim, they did just get V8 engines in their top end models, but while they are doing V8 engines, VW/Audi is coming out with the new V10 engines for the top of the line versions of A6 (RS6) and later S8.

Grand Master

linsook

Posted
Posted (edited)
But don't forget that only in 2005/2006 models. Nothing before that was on the market from Jap cars. Another thing to keep in mind is that german cars have also V10, V12 engines. Did you see a V10 on a Jap car? I don't think so. On the other hand, classic example of V10 application is the VW Touraeg.

So, back to your claim, they did just get V8 engines in their top end models, but while they are doing V8 engines, VW/Audi is coming out with the new V10 engines for the top of the line versions of A6 (RS6) and later S8.

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nothing on the market before that... like sand diego check ur sources? lexus LS 400 v8. the v8 was introduced in the early 90's.

but whats your point anyways? bigger engines yarrrrr... better cars? shows you know nothing of the automotive market, especially the japanese philospohy behind their vehicles. they like smaller engines and smaller cars. thats what they've been doing since their break out into the american market in the late 60's early 70's. its worked for them for over 30 years. thats why they have over 40% of the market in NA.

but you are correct. if you want and can afford to buy and feed huge v10' v12'. yes, goto the europeans.

edit: dont get me wrong. i like european cars. and if i had money to burn like alot of it, i would get myself a v12 aswell.

Edited by linsook
Mentor

San Diego

Posted
  • Author
Posted
But don't forget that only in 2005/2006 models. Nothing before that was on the market from Jap cars. Another thing to keep in mind is that german cars have also V10, V12 engines. Did you see a V10 on a Jap car? I don't think so. On the other hand, classic example of V10 application is the VW Touraeg.

So, back to your claim, they did just get V8 engines in their top end models, but while they are doing V8 engines, VW/Audi is coming out with the new V10 engines for the top of the line versions of A6 (RS6) and later S8.

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Comparing apples to oranges are we? The V10 you speak of is a diesel, not gasoline like the ones I pointed out. Plus, why would the Japanese need more cylinders when they can squeeze more out of V6 than most German's or American's can squeeze from a V8?

Grand Master

Brandon Live Veteran

Posted
  • Veteran
Posted
Comparing apples to oranges are we? The V10 you speak of is a diesel, not gasoline like the ones I pointed out. Plus, why would the Japanese need more cylinders when they can squeeze more out of V6 than most German's or American's can squeeze from a V8?

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That's a ridiculous statement.

The American car companies can't get squat out of an engine, that's true. But the Germans clearly lead the way in efficient engine design.

The Japanese make good, reliable engines, but the only way they get big HP numbers is by making engines like the Honda/Acura VTECs with a big bark (very high revving) but no bite (torque).

The classic example is obviously the BMW I6 engine. How many Japanese 6 cyls do 340HP?

One of my best friends has an Acura RSX-S. It's a fine car and I'd be happy to drive one. But I'd much rather drive an A4 2.0T which has the same HP, waaaaay more torque (~210ft lbs vs ~127), and a vastly superior interior.

Regarding V8s... show me a Japanese V8 as impressive as Audi's 420HP 4.2L (from this year's RS4). Or a V10 as impressive as their 5.0L that powers the Gallardo. Or one that rivals the turbo W12 in the Continental GT. Or the Audi turbo W16 in the upcoming Bugatti Veyron with over 1000HP.

Mentor

vraa

Posted
Posted
That's a ridiculous statement.

The American car companies can't get squat out of an engine, that's true.  But the Germans clearly lead the way in efficient engine design.

The Japanese make good, reliable engines, but the only way they get big HP numbers is by making engines like the Honda/Acura VTECs with a big bark (very high revving) but no bite (torque).

The classic example is obviously the BMW I6 engine.  How many Japanese 6 cyls do 340HP?

One of my best friends has an Acura RSX-S.  It's a fine car and I'd be happy to drive one.  But I'd much rather drive an A4 2.0T which has the same HP, waaaaay more torque (~210ft lbs vs ~127), and a vastly superior interior.

Regarding V8s... show me a Japanese V8 as impressive as Audi's 420HP 4.2L (from this year's RS4).  Or a V10 as impressive as their 5.0L that powers the Gallardo.  Or one that rivals the turbo W12 in the Continental GT.  Or the Audi turbo W16 in the upcoming Bugatti Veyron with over 1000HP.

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2JZ? 1UZ? Both blocks being ranked IMO as the top three in their respective 6cyl classes and 8cyl classes. However, once you pass up V8, I hand it off to the Germans. V12-Bi Turbo making more power then the tranny can handle (x65 Mercedes)!? Jesus.

The reason I think the Japanese build better engines is because of reliability, however, once you are dealing with the 180k$ range, reliability is no longer a top ten issue, and power moves up. I'm in now way saying the Germans don't make reliable smaller engines however, I just think the Japanese are better at it. And on the flip side, I'm not saying the Japanese don't make powerful V8+ engines, the Century is a beautiful car, it's just the Germans seem as if they are better at it.

Veteran

VGVL

Posted
Posted

Oddly enough, the design grew on me when I saw one in person in a very nice shade of white.

When I first saw the pictures I immediately thought "Japanese Styling", but after actually seeing the new Jetta (Bora in Mexico) in person I couldn't find such styling I had criticized earlier. It actually seemed like a very nice car.

The interior seems nice and doesn't look "broken" like it usually does in American and some Japanese cars around that price range.

I asked my local VW dealer and its one of the few cars that are available in MT around town, which is nice.

Grand Master

threetonesun

Posted
Posted
Don't speak before you do your research. The latest out of the Nissan/Infiniti stable, the M. 4.5 liter V8 with 4 doors. The latest from Lexus, the GS. Yet another V8 in a 4-door sedan. I'll stop there...

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:huh:

I know what cars Infinit/Lexus make, my point was people still don't take them as seriously as a BMW/Merc/Audi. Maybe on the West Coast, but certainly not around here. I see maybe 1 Lexus/Infiniti for every 10 BMWs/Mercs.

The American car companies can't get squat out of an engine, that's true.  But the Germans clearly lead the way in efficient engine design.

The Japanese make good, reliable engines, but the only way they get big HP numbers is by making engines like the Honda/Acura VTECs with a big bark (very high revving) but no bite (torque).

The classic example is obviously the BMW I6 engine.  How many Japanese 6 cyls do 340HP?

Regarding V8s... show me a Japanese V8 as impressive as Audi's 420HP 4.2L (from this year's RS4).  Or a V10 as impressive as their 5.0L that powers the Gallardo.  Or one that rivals the turbo W12 in the Continental GT.  Or the Audi turbo W16 in the upcoming Bugatti Veyron with over 1000HP.

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Every Japanese inline 6 I can think of (the Nissan and Toyota ones) would put the BMW inline 6s to shame. They're just not as well known because Nissan went to a V6, and Toyota doesn't make that many sport 6s.

Also, the Subaru WRX STi/Mitsubishi EVOs put most other cars to shame in terms of horsepower/torque output. Mitsu has a 400hp 2.0 liter engine with well over 300ftlbs of torque.

If you want to compare engines of different makes/sizes, compare them along equal lines. The general standard is 100hp/liter. From there you can judge qualities such as forced induction, useable torque (what kills many American's opinions of Toyota/Honda/Nissan engines), and peak torque/hp RPMs, and durability of the engine, and cost. For the money, nothing beats the Japanese low displacement high RPM engines. Nothing. They will last forever, they provide useable output, and most of them have a top end system that actually makes them fast.

Proficient

epple

Posted
Posted
Well, eventually u guyz are right.

The VW Fox looks like a Seat Altea from behind :pinch:

Sarga_piros_big.jpg

in_Seat_Altea_52.jpg

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Well, the VW Fox (Lupo in EU), is basically the same as the Seat Altea.

talk about chevy aveo..

ChevyAveo.jpg

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The Chevy Aveo is the same as Daewoo Kalos, only with an american badge.

Grand Master

MulletRobZ

Posted
Posted

About the trend towards increasing ugliness by VW, I can agree with you guys there, especially when they released that New Beetle in 1998! Definitely among the ugliest cars I've seen! Also, I don't think their VW Phaeton will do well, for that's overpriced as heck (minimum $135 000 CDN)! Finally, I noted how VW got bad publicity when the Car Bomb VW Polo Ad was circulated! That car reminds me too much of a four-door version of the Mini Cooper!

Proficient

epple

Posted
Posted
Well thats because, much like the example in the comment after yours, Daewoo is now owned by GM.

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Yeah, precisely... I don't know if it's a bad thing or not, but hopefully the customer will be the winner in the end.

I've driven the Kalos, and I must say for the price, it's a nice car. And I think it'll be even better now when GM can put some more resources into the line:):)

San Diego: yeah you are correct as well...I see both cars on the road here (in Sweden), so I dunno how they think about what market the other one should have, but the VW is so far the most seen one. Seat is probably more recognized in the southern parts of europe, but that I'm just gessing:p:p

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