Playstation 3 Fans Rejoice!

[lexor]

No it's not... go read some technical papers, cell is not ideal for games it's ideal for streaming floating point insturcitions if i remember correctly which are suited for Media decompression and something to do with databases

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media maybe, but not databases. IBM guys said that whoever said that Cell is any good for DBs is high and IBM would never put Cell in server market.

[udontneed2know]

Never put Cell in the server market? They already have Dual Cell Blade servers out there.

Not sure whos high, because IBM has never said anything like that.

http://www.mc.com/products/view/index.cfm?id=64&type=boards

Cell will be used in many server applications. The Cell processor with a little tweaking would actually be a very impressive network processor to be perfectly honest. Hell the actual name for the Clel processor is the Cell Broadband Engine processor. Cell is built for networking as much as its built for gaming and parallel processing and multi-threaded MIMD processing.

[Matrix XII]

Just shows you can never trust Sony till you see it in front of your face.

[udontneed2know]

Don't believe Sony on what?

What exactly has Sony lied about recently? lol. You guys are killing me here with how clueless you all are.

Get a clue before you have an opinion, thats what my girlfriend likes to say and hell it rings true on these forums.

[fock neow1n]

who cares about all that, if the darn thing still has that silly loading screen, I wont even bother flaming the thing.

[Bhav]

interesting post udontneed2know. are you programming just for the fun of it, or are you working towards something?

[mattmatik]

I don't need to go check out technical papers lol.  I program for the processor and know all its ins and outs.  Been programming on it since early October when IBM released its virtual system emulator on the architecture and now I have all the newly released GCC tools and the like for the Cell architecture.

Cell was built from the ground on for real-time applications.  Its specifically why IBM implented 128 128-bit registers onto each SPE instead of just slapping 8 more SPE's into the mix with no registers and 128kb of LS SRAM.

I've probably wrote more technical papers on Cell then you've read so I don't think you want to continue a debate about Cell with me.  Cell is best utilized when your using a 2*2*2*1 component for processing. Streaming different threads of code ( AI for 2, graphics for 2 or 3, physics for 2 ) and filtering it through the registers before sending them on their way.  But utilizing assembly language is probably the best route considering Cell was built from the ground up to give programmers, FINALLY give programmers absolute complete control over the entire system.  And assembly is just a natural language to talk to a system with.  Considering PS2 developers are now assembly language pros, this shouldnt be a tough decision on their part.

Cell is generations ahead of the incredibly simple Xenon CPU.  Xenon is just a pretty bad mock-up of the PS2 architecture.  But instead of 1 EE they have 3 PPE's and instead of 3 attached Vector Units on the EE they have 1 VU attached to each PPE.  Fairly simple design that is hell to program for thanks to the brilliant move to only bring 1MB of L2 Cache to the table.  lol.  That move is as bad, maybe worse, then Sony's move with the PS2 to only bring 4MB of V-Ram to the table.

But anyway, there never has been a CPU that was as good for gaming as the Cell processor.  It is generations, many generations beyond anything AMD and Intel will have commercially avaliable for the coming years and god, theres no contest between it and any previous or current console CPU.  The Emotion Engine was pretty incredible for its time, but it just didn't have the resources needed to actually bring it to its full fruitation.  Looking at it, I could call the Cell processor what the Emotion Engine could of been, but of course 5 years and 3billion dollars more advanced and far easier to program for and far more efficient with FAR more bandwidth and a programmable GPU to go along with it.

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Ok, get this right: I am not challenging your knowledge of the Cell or anything more.

But what I want to know is why have name developers (see: Carmack) come out already and said the 360 is easy to program for and capable of so much?

And if the Cell is so much more advanced than anything Intel or AMD could come up with for gaming, we might as well declare the PC dead in the water for future gaming, right?

I'm sorry, as a layman, I really don't see how it's possible for you to make a comment like that. You cannot develop something in the technology market nowdays that is future proof. Essentially you are implying the PS3, in 5-6 years, will STILL be far ahead than any PC? That doesn't make sense.

[jerry]

I've probably wrote more technical papers on Cell then you've read so I don't think you want to continue a debate about Cell with me.?

586853190[/snapback]

Care to link us to them?

I doubt it since there are too many "lol" in your post to take it for what its worth. :whistle::

[udontneed2know]

John Carmack is a PC developer used to PC tools, which is exactly what Microsoft provides and only what Microsoft provides. I could link you to various comments from Bandai, Namco, Konami, Insomniac, Rockstar, and Epic talking about how easy the Playstation 3 is to program for. Since October Sony has been sending out their massive load of middleware to all the development companies, and this month especially was the big one. This month Sony sent out the SPE Optimizers from IBM, the SN Systems debuggers and compilers, and many documents on how to multi-thread program for the SPE's from IBM. Next month with the finalization of the RSX Nvidia will be sending out many dozens of various shader op programs to the companies and all these things will be loaded onto the final Cell Reference Kit come December. December is the biggest month for the PS3 developers, for they will finally have their hands on the finalized hardware and all the middleware they could ever need to make their programming lives easier.

interesting post udontneed2know. are you programming just for the fun of it, or are you working towards something?

Right now just for the fun of it. Putting Cell through its paces. Even at 1/100th the architectures actual strength the processor can handle everything my PC can and then some. PC processors are rather pathetic these days to be perfectly honest. And PC developers in general are getting more and more pathetic as the months pass. PC developers simply are not used to multi-core processing, assembly language optimization and various other things console developers have been pros on since the launch of the Playstation 2. Its rather funny to see just how far behind PC developers are.

But what I want to know is why have name developers (see: Carmack) come out already and said the 360 is easy to program for and capable of so much?

Ease of programming is not what is needed these days. The Playstation 2 was a bitch to program for, I know because I own one of the many Linux Kits out there and have done many years worth of programming for the system. But one thing all the difficulty brought ( note the difficulty came from assembly language programming in a multi-core environment ) was extremely high programmer control of the system. I doubt a PC developer has actually talked directly to a PC in decades, since the Vector Computers were replaced by " easier to manage " Intel 4004 processors. Cell though is a reiteration of computing back in the early to late 60's when programmers had full control over every single bit of memory being used but of course with about 100,000x the power that they utilized back then.

What I'm talking about though is the extreme mistake by Microsoft to only allow 1MB of L2 Cache as the entire unit of storage within the CPU of the Xbox360. With that move they basically eliminated anything a multi-core processor could of done in the first place. With multi-core, you have 3 processors all pushing through various levels of code that require various levels of space. And all 3 are going to be clogged because that bulk physics matrix that PPE2 pushed into the Cache used almost all of it. Thats what current 360 developers are doing. Using massive bulk code instead of streamlining the process mainly because there is almost no reason to streamline the coding process because doing that you basically have to allocate Cache for each PPE which in the end gives the developers about 300kb of L2 cache per heavy thread pushing PPE. Which anyone can tell you, is not even close to what you'll need for multi-core processing. So, you'll probably see alot of 360 developers not even using 3 Cores because really, whats the point if all its going to do is slow down the process rather then smooth it out?

The Cell however, you have your PPE sitting back distributing tasks to the SPE's that are given to it by the programmer and it has its own 512MB of L2 * 56k of L1. Then each SPE while being given its tasks has a sizable stack of 256kb of LS SRAM to spit code into when needed ( this task is controlled by the programmer and the compiler ), and then you have 128 128-bit registers sitting right next to the DMA Controller and can talk directly with the PPE as well. So there is a trully massive amount of storage avaliable for the programmers of the PS3. Which is why you'll find many quotes around the place from people like Bandai stating simply, " MAN CELL IS FAST! BLAZING FAST! ". Because it is. Probably the fastest, most stable and latency free programming environment I've witnessed in 30 years. Latency and cycle loss in the Cell will stay under the 40 mark throughout its process. Whereas the utilization of only Cache and the inherent plague of latency with Cache these days can push the cycle loss of the 360 well beyond the 10,000 mark.

Sure its easy to program for. But C# is easier to program then Assembly but with Assembly I'll program the same program from C# and it'll run 75% more efficiently.

[Cole]

Sony are full of BS.  As far as the PS3 goes, I will believe what I see on the shelves, nothing more.  And then when I see it on the shelves, I'll keep on walking and see the X360 shelves still selling out!

586843047[/snapback]

Fanboyism, don't tell me you're not *Points at signature and avatar*.

Well, Go 360! Every console MS sells is a loss of profit (I read somewhere that the console sells for more than it costs to make.)

Let's just wait and get an official statement from sony, I hate when these 'rumor threads' come up.

[Nand]

John Carmack is a PC developer used to PC tools, which is exactly what Microsoft provides and only what Microsoft provides.  I could link you to various comments from Bandai, Namco, Konami, Insomniac, Rockstar, and Epic talking about how easy the Playstation 3 is to program for.  Since October Sony has been sending out their massive load of middleware to all the development companies, and this month especially was the big one.  This month Sony sent out the SPE Optimizers from IBM, the SN Systems debuggers and compilers, and many documents on how to multi-thread program for the SPE's from IBM.  Next month with the finalization of the RSX Nvidia will be sending out many dozens of various shader op programs to the companies and all these things will be loaded onto the final Cell Reference Kit come December.  December is the biggest month for the PS3 developers, for they will finally have their hands on the finalized hardware and all the middleware they could ever need to make their programming lives easier.

Right now just for the fun of it.  Putting Cell through its paces.  Even at 1/100th the architectures actual strength the processor can handle everything my PC can and then some. PC processors are rather pathetic these days to be perfectly honest.  And PC developers in general are getting more and more pathetic as the months pass.  PC developers simply are not used to multi-core processing, assembly language optimization and various other things console developers have been pros on since the launch of the Playstation 2.  Its rather funny to see just how far behind PC developers are.

Ease of programming is not what is needed these days.  The Playstation 2 was a bitch to program for, I know because I own one of the many Linux Kits out there and have done many years worth of programming for the system.  But one thing all the difficulty brought ( note the difficulty came from assembly language programming in a multi-core environment ) was extremely high programmer control of the system.  I doubt a PC developer has actually talked directly to a PC in decades, since the Vector Computers were replaced by " easier to manage " Intel 4004 processors.  Cell though is a reiteration of computing back in the early to late 60's when programmers had full control over every single bit of memory being used but of course with about 100,000x the power that they utilized back then.

What I'm talking about though is the extreme mistake by Microsoft to only allow 1MB of L2 Cache as the entire unit of storage within the CPU of the Xbox360.  With that move they basically eliminated anything a multi-core processor could of done in the first place.  With multi-core, you have 3 processors all pushing through various levels of code that require various levels of space.  And all 3 are going to be clogged because that bulk physics matrix that PPE2 pushed into the Cache used almost all of it.  Thats what current 360 developers are doing.  Using massive bulk code instead of streamlining the process mainly because there is almost no reason to streamline the coding process because doing that you basically have to allocate Cache for each PPE which in the end gives the developers about 300kb of L2 cache per heavy thread pushing PPE.  Which anyone can tell you, is not even close to what you'll need for multi-core processing.  So, you'll probably see alot of 360 developers not even using 3 Cores because really, whats the point if all its going to do is slow down the process rather then smooth it out?

The Cell however, you have your PPE sitting back distributing tasks to the SPE's that are given to it by the programmer and it has its own 512MB of L2 * 56k of L1.  Then each SPE while being given its tasks has a sizable stack of 256kb of LS SRAM to spit code into when needed ( this task is controlled by the programmer and the compiler ), and then you have 128 128-bit registers sitting right next to the DMA Controller and can talk directly with the PPE as well.  So there is a trully massive amount of storage avaliable for the programmers of the PS3.  Which is why you'll find many quotes around the place from people like Bandai stating simply, " MAN CELL IS FAST! BLAZING FAST! ".  Because it is. Probably the fastest, most stable and latency free programming environment I've witnessed in 30 years.  Latency and cycle loss in the Cell will stay under the 40 mark throughout its process.  Whereas the utilization of only Cache and the inherent plague of latency with Cache these days can push the cycle loss of the 360 well beyond the 10,000 mark.

Sure its easy to program for.  But C# is easier to program then Assembly but with Assembly I'll program the same program from C# and it'll run 75% more efficiently.

586853435[/snapback]

finally someone who knows there stuff

you explain something then someone else asks another question that was already answered or that could easily be found by a simple search, it's a never ending cycle.

My advice is wait for the systems to come out. Next, find out about how processors and programming work. And lastly is find the information for yourself and make sure you have the right information. I fyou look at one two three sites and they say the same thing, that still may not be enough, especially the context.

The question I have is will the cell processor kick butt 3 years from now? I dunno, anyone?

[BajiRav]

<<snipped>>

586853435[/snapback]

wow feels like PCs as I know them, will be dead soon. RIP Intel/AMD. :D

[udontneed2know]

The question I have is will the cell processor kick butt 3 years from now? I dunno, anyone?

Yes. Only 2,000$ freak processors from Intel and AMD will even come close to matching Cell within 3 years. Hell in 3 years I doubt we'll still have any general purpose, multi-core PC processor reaching 216Gflop SP FP precision. Considering how scalable Cell is, by the time Intel and AMD catch-up to Cell, Cell will already be triple the power.

Hell IBM is already preparing for a 1PETAFlop Cell blade server by 2008 ( can see that in the mercury link PDF ). IBM is also changing the Cell to use specialized Double Precision SPE's instead of the SP SPE's for the current Cell. IBM went with SP mainly because Double precision simply will never be needed for a gaming environment. Not for another 10 years or so atleast. Physics will never become complex enough in a real-time environment for double precision programmign to be required.

wow feels like PCs as I know them, will be dead soon. RIP Intel/AMD

If Sony's recent 3 billion dollar reinvestment into the Cell architecure is any indication, then they are planning many variations and big things for the processor. If IBM and Sony get together and go back with Cell to make it more generalized and out-of-order processor then yeah, you can kiss Intel and AMD goodbye. Or atleast say hello to a new processor revolution because Intel and AMD will be forced to actually do something. They've been sleepwalking for decades now, knowing they are the only real makers so anythign they make will sell. Hopefully Cell enters the PC market simply to force Intel and AMD to show what they are made of. But as it is right now, if Cell actually does enter the market with Cell Vaio laptops and Cell Sony PC's it will be big trouble for Intel and AMD. Cells power is trully extraordinary. I personally was expecting back in 2002 for Cell to maybe hit about 100Gflops Rmax, but when I heard 256Gflops at 4.2Ghz I was floored. No processor in history has ever had that sort of power from only 9 processors. Not even close. Current PC processors may hit around 10-15Gflops of computing performance.

[trance]

100% agree with your last statement udontneed2know, but remember, what a person programs in c# will take 10000% less time for them to code, than for you to code in ASM. And yes, I know, I code and debug in ASM as my daily job.

Same thing goes with the Xbox360 VS PS3. While eeking out every last bit of power out of the cell may well surpass the 360 in terms of perf and visuals, it will take significantly longer to program that on the PS3, while devs will be able to crank out the games far easier and in less time on the 360. Usually what that means for the PS3 devs is that they will cut corners to push out the games faster, and will not do all the ever important optimizations to make the games so much better. I think that is the big difference b/w the 360 and PS3. Yes as time goes by, the games for PS3 will get better and the devs get better, but the same can be said for the 360. In the end PS3 may surpass the 360, I don't know. only time will tell. Currently however, for ease of use and dev tools, the 360 is in the lead.

[iconboy]

PCs arent go anywhere anytime soon, considering the future is multi core CPUs and AMD and intel have already released their falvours of dual core. I think the tech in the PS3 is very exciting- not only the cell processor which will also be used in all sorts of consumer gadgets- but also the blur ray disc capabilities, 50 gigs minimum on each disc! a whole new way to back up data! :) the 360 is upping the numbers a whole lot, but thats all there doing, sony is bring it to a whole new field.

[mattmatik]

Wow :shock:

So Sony is going to release a console containing the fastest processing chip known to man, and will be for years to come, for ~$500? That's a bargain if I ever saw one!

I guess I'll get a PS3 on that fact alone: You can get your $2000 extreme PC, I'll spend $500 and still be ahead.

:)

(note: I don't believe anything until the product is out but it's fun to assume)

[udontneed2know]

Same thing goes with the Xbox360 VS PS3. While eeking out every last bit of power out of the cell may well surpass the 360 in terms of perf and visuals, it will take significantly longer to program that on the PS3, while devs will be able to crank out the games far easier and in less time on the 360. Usually what that means for the PS3 devs is that they will cut corners to push out the games faster, and will not do all the ever important optimizations to make the games so much better. I think that is the big difference b/w the 360 and PS3. Yes as time goes by, the games for PS3 will get better and the devs get better, but the same can be said for the 360. In the end PS3 may surpass the 360, I don't know. only time will tell. Currently however, for ease of use and dev tools, the 360 is in the lead.

The interesting thing is the instruction set for the SPE's is actually a superset of the instruction set for the PS2's Emotion Engine. So any PS2 developer who begins programming will be automatically familiar with the programming environment of the PS3. And thankfully Sony is fully backing developers this time around and including such quality middleware within the SDK that in reality they are really matching Microsoft stride for stride to help developers out this generation. Developers right now have Test UE3.0, Havok 2.3 and AGAEI, the SN Systems compilers and debuggers ( the thing most programmers probably wept in joy over lol ), the SPE optimizers and all that jazz. The optimizers especially will come in handy, will make getting the SPE's to work right will require only a 10th of the time now thanks to that.

Your right though, assembly is of course far longer but really considering so much assembly can be copied and pasted, its debatable in the end if a pro Assembly programmer will have a longer cycle then a pro c# developer ( C# is blah for me though, ill just start saying C++ lol ). And thankfully for any PS3 developers its not required to program in Assembly, they can still program in Fortran, C/C++ and various other languages if they want to.

Currently though yeah, 360 is in the lead. But with how much Sony is backing middleware and developers in general this time around, by the end of this generation Sony could very well pass up Microsoft. Its possible, if Sony stays the course.

[Tech Star]

Man.....This is really good for Sony. They make a big comotion about the price then BOOM! The real price will be $300-$500. That is what is going to make Sony a Winner!

[Nand]

Blu ray is not really a selling point for me since, PS3 will have DVD- RW, DVD +RW, and DVD-R along with CDRW etc. What sells the PS3 for me? Cell processor, Dual HDMI out (imagine 7 players [wish it were 8] playing on two separate screens on one system.) and the fact I can use my (yes it's proprietary but I have one) memory stick, and even my sd card (not proprietary) for saving. If Sony cut everything but these few things PS3 is still gonna sell. And for how much

PS 1 $299, PS 2 $299 (if I remember correctly), PS 3 $299-399 ????

[Radium]

If Playstation 3 is as effective as people say it is, then I'll buy one just to own one!

I hope that there will be keyboards and mice ? la PC for it, so that I can buy any keyboard and/or mouse and just plug it in (Plug and Play:DD).

[udontneed2know]

Yeah until I get an HDTV Blu-Ray isn't that big of a deal, except for the simple fact that developers will have all the space they need for real next-generation gaming. EA had to cut back on alot of the features in its madden title simply because the disk was all used up mainly due to the High Res graphic engine.

PS1 and PS2 both launched in Japan at 369$ and then moved down to 300$ for the US launch. I expect something similar this time around.

Probably 469$ in Japan and 400$ in America though. Even though Sony is real good at somehow getting the price down its hard to see them doing it this time around with all the tech in the box. Probably 4000$ of technology, or more, inside a 400$ package, cant really beat that.

Alot of people I know are going toget a PS3 just to have a cheap development platform for the Cell / Linux. Hell in college theres a club being built to program Cell / Linux programs on the PS3 lol.

I hope that there will be keyboards and mice ? la PC for it, so that I can buy any keyboard and/or mouse and just plug it in (Plug and Play biggrin.gif).

Yeah there will be. And unlike the 360 you can actually is it for gaming. Could very well open the doors to a massive flood of PC ports to the PS3. Genres that usually dont make it over like flight sims, RTS's, and that sort of thing that are generally PC only.

[icecaveman]

Oh my you really trust Sony THIS much after the last time? Do you really believe it will be far superior for the next 3 years and PC processors will be doomed?

If you don't remember it Sony claimed the EXACTLY same thing the last generation. PS2 was supposed to boat a CPU on a level with Super Computers and it was supposed to eventually replace desktop processors... Well we'll see. We'll see :rofl:

[udontneed2know]

Sony never said anything like that about the EE/GS. Please lol.

And this isn't Sony saying all this, its IBM mostly.

[Spartan_X]

it seems to me like Sony has been doing some homework around community forums and sending in some "damage control" ppl to put the force back into balance... well more black than light force but is still well balanced... :blush: :happy: :laugh: :rofl: :p

aways, wellcome to the playground kids! I'm sure there's enough room for all us here and the main idea is to have fun because everything is about the games!!! :wub: :yes:

long live to Nintendo!!! :laugh: :rofl: :p ;) :whistle:

[BajiRav]

@udontneed2know

I respect your knowledge of processor architecture, at least of cell. But it seems some of your claims are outrageous. I am saying this because my work is related to a major part of processor design. I will let you guess what I do for now. But what you are saying is impossible to pack in PS3 as shown at E3. Cell may be a bit too powerful to fit PS3 at capabilities you are claiming.

Again I am not challenging cell programming which you said you are doing but a different aspect of the so called cell revolution.

Also lets not forget Windows. Cell can promise you moon but it is not going anywhere unless Windows works on it; at least for next 10 years or so. That gives a lot of time for intel/AMD to catch up. If at all that is.