My 'Microsoft Never Invents' rant

[tapo]

For context, this was supposed to be part of the IE 7 public preview released thread. It seems this is too big for that section, so I'll post it here.

And for the record, Xbox Live was a good idea. I'm not a blind troll or anything.

Apple did not invent Desktop Search. In fact I remember I read about desktop search first time in Longhorn features back in 2003.

Yeah, Microsoft intended to make search faster by overhauling the filesystem by adding another layer. "WinFS", which ran on top of NTFS (Which is an actual filesystem) was intended to make searches easier.

Of course, it was never implemented, so it doesn't really count. If you think unimplemented things count, it used used Apple's concept of 'stacks', saved searches that behave as folders. They patented it in the mid 90's. WinFS was designed to use stacks all around the filesystem, not just for quick search.

When it comes to desktop search, I honestly don't know (probably a Windows shareware vendor), but Google's attempt at Google Desktop Search, was to create an index beforehand, so searches didn't take so long. It also searched inside files so you didn't need to know the file's name. MSN Desktop Search, aside from copying the name "Desktop Search", was a direct ripoff. Apple's "Spotlight" search, was jumping into the game. Bringing back stacks, and adding the same type of quick searches GDS was well known for.

Windows media works, real media certainly doesn't

Back in its heyday, RealAudio/RealPlayer was actually pretty good. Quicktime had been out for a number of years, for Mac OS as well as Windows. What is now known as Windows Media Player used to be "Video for Windows", and used the avi container. Video for Windows was essentially a copy of Quicktime. When streaming video became more popular than local video, Microsoft rebranded it.

And Windows media only 'works' if you're running a Windows-based PC. Whereas Real has good software for the Mac and Linux, Microsoft did a horrible job on the Mac player, eventually contracting an outside company to turn it into a quicktime plugin. They don't support Linux at all.

Vista's GUI has nothing to do with OSX GUI.

What? Are you kidding me? Microsoft has always copied Apple when it comes to user interfaces, and it became really blatant when they were working on Windows 3.0, when they even hired Susan Kare (designer of the Mac OS icons) to do the Windows 3.0 icons as well. Windows 95 is also a copy (move the start menu to the top of the screen, make the cursor black, and the icons to the right hand side rather then the left).

They also only started codenaming their user interfaces starting with Windows XP, which is the only time they changed it in years (and was right after OS X came out). OS X's UI, codenamed Aqua, was suddenly met by OS XP's UI, codenamed Luna.

And hell, if you still don't believe me, there's even a video showing how much of a ripoff the Vista UI is.

IE works, netscape doesn't

Actually, they were both pretty terrible (Anyone remember Netscape's <blink> tag?) but Microsoft had, and continues to have, a fear that if something is used worldwide and open, then Microsoft's dominance will begin to slip. Remember, they only made a clone of CP/M, and got to where they are today though no-good business tactics (as well as illegal) and being in the right place at the right time.

Netscape, being very popular and available for Mac, Windows, and Unix systems, is seen as a threat. So, after licensing the original Mosaic code from Spyglass, they build IE. Of course, they never paid Spyglass a dime, but that's another story.

So they take IE, mold it into Windows as much as possible, then force it on their users in Windows 98, saying it cannot be removed (though it could, and Microsoft got burned for that).

The hope is, if everyone's running IE and viewing ActiveX websites, instead of Netscape and Java, then nobody could use another OS if they wanted to use the web.

ActiveX didn't catch on as well as they hoped, since Java was popular for the language, as well as applets. So they make their own JVM (Java Virtual Machine) which is shipped with Windows. The Microsoft JVM is incompatible and does not follow the specifications that Sun licensed them the technology under, meaning MSJVM applets wouldn't run on other JVMs for other platforms. When that failed (Sun sued and won), Microsoft makes a clone. C# and .Net CLR to replace Java and the JVM.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I do not like Microsoft.

Edited January 31, 2006 by tapo

[pepo]

Bottom line, Windows better than OS X.

Me = happy, whatever the case.

You = ignorance, for taking so much of your time to talk about a topic discussed over a million times... :|

[Commodore Max]

I agree with most of your points.

I know that Microsoft has been copying a few of Apple's features for their UI, but Vista's UI is most certainly not the same as Apple's. And yes, I have seen the video. It has a few good points, but they are not that conclusive. I think Apple has just been quick enough to implement some features before Microsoft, but I do blame them for leaving their UI at the same level from 95 - 2000.

But how are the two major operating systems used in the entire world supposed to compete without actually copying each other at a certain point ? Apple, and I'm very sure, has copied stuff from Windows as well. A video like that one only demonstrates how much Windows and OSX resemble each other.

OSX is good, has its goods and bads, and so does Windows.

What's left ? Linux. Is it the messiah of Operating Systems ? No. But it's free, and in constant evolution. That's why I dual-boot XP with Linux.

[tapo]

I am not an Apple fanboy, and though I do have a Mac as my primary system, I also have two Linux machines (One Debian and one Ubuntu/Win98 Dual boot), and two Windows XP machines, one of which, I posted this rant from.

Then intent is not to claim "OMG M$ COPPPED APPLE LOLZ", but just to prove to the thread that Microsoft has a history of this. And personally, I don't care if IE 7 is like Firefox. I am worried that the only reason that they continued IE development was because of alternatives taking off, and I didn't have a good impression of it, but if the version shipped with Vista provides a better experience for users, all the better.

I do, however, have strong feelings surrounding what Microsoft has done to Netscape and Java.

[Septimus]

About the streaming video bit. You do realise that MS practically did invent the way of streaming used in MMS and Real RTSP streams? The guy who started Real developed all the technologies for it while in the Microsoft Media Services team (MMS). Also you are extremely naive if you think MS are the only ones to do this the amount they do, they are just more blatent about it.

[Deciever]

I think this thread needs to be locked and or deleted before some huge flame war breaks out in here because sir you are doing nothing more than setting yourself up to one.

however before it does get locked I will say this, no company or person ever has an original thought or idea it is always based on something when you get down to it. Apple's GUI idea came from Xerox, Xerox's idea came from paper, paper came from egyptians using papyrus, using papyrus idea came from wall or cave paintings, etc.

OMG we ripped off our GUI's from cave men! But who did they rip off?

What is important isn't the idea but it comes from having the ability and insight on figuring out the best way to put all these different ideas together in a very coherent, useful and efficient way and marketing it effectively whether people really need it or not, as long as they believe they need or want they'll get it.

Sadly no matter who has the best idea or first to put a major peice of the puzzle together for the idea, the statement above holds true.

That is why microsoft is currently the dominating company, not because of the ideas but because they have the ability of being able to put it all together and the marketing power to do it. So you Apple boys can cry all you want and say but Apple did it first.... but so what? Because that really doesn't matter, if they can't get all of their ideas together and use their marketing power effectively to over take their competitors whatever they do we'll always have to take the 2nd seat and will never be in shot gun.

And when it comes to the browser, I've used IE7 and I have to appluad them for finally fixing the PNG24 bug, but I will not use IE7 instead I will use Maxthon and Maxthon does work the IE7 render engine and Firefox's Gecko render engine but it is more functional than both so why use IE7 or FireFox? If IE7 had useful features or FireFox had useful features or plugins that Maxthon didn't have then yea I would use one or the other.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Deciever

[Orange Battery]

Microsoft does seem to copy a lot of things poorly. Their web services have always seemed bad, they only seem to work on whats hot at that particular moment with other companies. Im sure if Google suddenly started pushing their groups then MSN groups would suddenly become a very important thing to Microsoft but whilst nobody else is interested in it MSN groups is kept as a buggy and limited service.

[tapo]

however before it does get locked I will say this, no company or person ever has an original thought or idea it is always based on something when you get down to it.

I am a believer that all invention is based off of the work of others, and this is the best way to progress science and technology. This is why I'm strongly for the restriction of copyright to a reasonable term, and against software patents. However, building off of the work of others is not what Microsoft has been doing. They take someone's idea, they clone it, and they use their power to kill off, or take profit from the company that actually created something. For once, I'd like to seem something in a Microsoft product that hasn't been done before, and is not a simple "me too!" catchup attempt at a competitor's product.

Also, please read above. I'm not an Apple fanboy. I was just countering arguements made in the forum. Apple has done some pretty stupid things too, a lot of stupid things. But I find it very disappointing that Microsoft, being the largest retail software company I can think of, cannot seem to innovate at all. And those things it does take the chance, they usually turn out to be failures. I mean, did anyone think the SPOT Watch was a good idea?

You do realise that MS practically did invent the way of streaming used in MMS and Real RTSP streams? The guy who started Real developed all the technologies for it while in the Microsoft Media Services team (MMS).

So you're trying to tell me that while the Real CEO was working at Microsoft, he picked up the entire idea that Microsoft had been working on for streaming, quits, then suddenly launches a company with a product and it takes Microsoft three whole years to come up with something less functional?

Also, RTP and RTCP, which RealAudio originally used, were not by Real or Microsoft at all. They were open, RFC specs that neither company (Real or Microsoft) contributed to. RTSP, which came out two years after RealAudio was launched, is also an RFC and was contributed to by Real. It's hard to imagine Real stole credit on something that was "practically invented" by Microsoft when they didn't claim to have invented it in the first place.

Edited February 1, 2006 by tapo

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Yeah, Microsoft intended to make search faster by overhauling the filesystem by adding another layer. "WinFS", which ran on top of NTFS (Which is an actual filesystem) was intended to make searches easier.

WinFS has nothing to do with making searches faster. WinFS is an object store that has nothing to with files, except that it replaces the entire concept of files. It's not fair to say that it "runs on top of NTFS". If it "runs" on anything, it's SQL Server.

Of course, it was never implemented, so it doesn't really count. If you think unimplemented things count, it used used Apple's concept of 'stacks', saved searches that behave as folders. They patented it in the mid 90's. WinFS was designed to use stacks all around the filesystem, not just for quick search.

Huh? Apple didn't invent Stacking. Stacks are not saved searches, either. Stacks are a visual representation of a grouped result set. You must be thinking of Virtual Folders, which are essentially saved queries designed to mimic traditional folder behaviors.

When it comes to desktop search, I honestly don't know (probably a Windows shareware vendor), but Google's attempt at Google Desktop Search, was to create an index beforehand, so searches didn't take so long. It also searched inside files so you didn't need to know the file's name.

The Windows Indexing Service (or "Content Indexing Service") shipped with Windows 2000 and I believe before that as an add-on to NT4. It indexes the content of files on your system and lets you do a fast, full-text search. However it had two major problems which led to it not being used commonly:

1) It was not a good desktop citizen and could bog down your machine.

2) It had no discoverable or user-friendly UI. Cute little dogs aside.

MSN Desktop Search, aside from copying the name "Desktop Search", was a direct ripoff. Apple's "Spotlight" search, was jumping into the game. Bringing back stacks, and adding the same type of quick searches GDS was well known for.

Google shipped their beta about 1 week before we shipped ours. Do you really think that Microsoft saw Google's release and coded the Desktop Search beta in one week? Give me a break. Microsoft didn't even know Google was releasing a Desktop Search product. In fact, the "MSN Desktop Search" details and screenshots leaked on Neowin before Google shipped their product - which I think led to Google stepping up their release schedule just to be ahead of us.

The group that designed "MSN Desktop Search" (which was before my time here) had been working on Desktop Search technology in an incubation project for a long time. All of this was planned for Vista all along, regardless of WinFS which is largely unrelated. When Vista was reset and pushed back, the team didn't want to wait any longer to ship, so they decided to ship it on XP and used MSN as a ship vehicle. It had absolutely nothing to do with Google or Apple or anybody else... despite how it may have seemed.

[Slimy]

I don't know about you guys, but I think the latest innovation from microsoft is as follows:

- the ie7 ui

- wlm8 and it's many features

Now, whether you don't like ie7's ui, think wlm8 is bloated and think vista is just another skin, then that's your opinion. You can't say however, that ie7's ui was ripped off firefox, wlm8 was ripped off yahoo messenger etc.

[IbSta]

I don't know why you guys rant on Microsoft? It's not your fight...as a consumer you should be thrilled, plus I would rather let Microsoft make everything then run a 3rd party tool.

[insurektion]

Bottom line, Windows better than OS X.

Me = happy, whatever the case.

You = ignorance, for taking so much of your time to talk about a topic discussed over a million times... :|

So have you ever used OS X? Especially 10.4.

Ignorance for discussing a topic? That a new one. I thought the min age for neowin was 13, grow up.

I don't know about you guys, but I think the latest innovation from microsoft is as follows:

- the ie7 ui

- wlm8 and it's many features

Now, whether you don't like ie7's ui, think wlm8 is bloated and think vista is just another skin, then that's your opinion. You can't say however, that ie7's ui was ripped off firefox, wlm8 was ripped off yahoo messenger etc.

Yeah it is my opinion and they are far too bloated both ie7's poor tab implementation and wlm. Hell I switched back to 7.5 it was so bad.

I had a pwerbook for 6 months before I sold it in anticipation of the new intel core Macs. Now Im temp on PC and find myself wanting to press f12 all the time to write a note or check the weather/stocks/score.

Windows feels unorganized and ackward. OS X has a little something called finesse. Sure the gaming is nice on PC but thats where I draw the line.

About the streaming video bit. You do realise that MS practically did invent the way of streaming used in MMS and Real RTSP streams? The guy who started Real developed all the technologies for it while in the Microsoft Media Services team (MMS). Also you are extremely naive if you think MS are the only ones to do this the amount they do, they are just more blatent about it.

They didnt invent anything they stole it from a company who sued/is suing them.

[Kestrel]

Tapo - There's an incredible amount of ignorance in your original post tainted by more than a little fanboy-ism. If you don't like Microsoft, then at least know why you dislike them; your post simply looksl ike sour grapes based largely on supposition and incomplete or incorrect information (as others have pointed out).

[thagame]

wow this post is so original. what a clown

[BajiRav]

Windows feels unorganized and ackward. OS X has a little something called finesse. Sure the gaming is nice on PC but thats where I draw the line.

They didnt invent anything they stole it from a company who sued/is suing them.

that finesse is immediately flushed down the gutter when you actually start using the system with incredibly backward Finder.... :pinch:

[((Ecko))]

They don't invent much but sure do patent every single thing they can.

[mayamaniac]

If you want to rant about MS not inventing, then rant about the OS itself, rather than small components of the OS.

Vista is not an invention nor any of its major components, from sidebar, gadgets, winfs, gui, etc.. non of the stuffs are original. And there's nothing wrong with that. MS is just trying to make an OS more polished to replace XP.

My beef with MS is they have the money and power to make a completely original and kick-ass OS, yet we haven't seen it. They have money to hire really smart and creative people to get the job done, and Vista is not it. This is their one chance to innovate in the OS market. I read little about Blackcomb or Vienna or whatever its called that is succeeding Vista, I hope that is the OS that is truly innovative. But for a company that is so powerful, they work slow. Its 2006, and we are still stuck with the same OS design from decades ago. Leave it to MS, who knows how long it'll take till we something original. I guess thats why we are hoping something good from Google.

[Brandon Live Veteran]

If you want to rant about MS not inventing, then rant about the OS itself, rather than small components of the OS.

Vista is not an invention nor any of its major components, from sidebar, gadgets, winfs, gui, etc.. non of the stuffs are original. And there's nothing wrong with that. MS is just trying to make an OS more polished to replace XP.

Actually, WinFS is extremely original and forward-looking. The Sidebar is quite original, in that in builds on design themes that began with Microsoft's "Dashboard" project back in the 90s.

"Glass" is also innovative and original in concept and implementation.

My beef with MS is they have the money and power to make a completely original and kick-ass OS, yet we haven't seen it. They have money to hire really smart and creative people to get the job done, and Vista is not it. This is their one chance to innovate in the OS market. I read little about Blackcomb or Vienna or whatever its called that is succeeding Vista, I hope that is the OS that is truly innovative. But for a company that is so powerful, they work slow. Its 2006, and we are still stuck with the same OS design from decades ago. Leave it to MS, who knows how long it'll take till we something original. I guess thats why we are hoping something good from Google.

How so? What kind of changes are you looking for? It's easy to say "make it better" - but what did you have in mind?

[pepo]

So have you ever used OS X? Especially 10.4.

Ignorance for discussing a topic? That a new one. I thought the min age for neowin was 13, grow up.

Yeah it is my opinion and they are far too bloated both ie7's poor tab implementation and wlm. Hell I switched back to 7.5 it was so bad.

I had a pwerbook for 6 months before I sold it in anticipation of the new intel core Macs. Now Im temp on PC and find myself wanting to press f12 all the time to write a note or check the weather/stocks/score.

Windows feels unorganized and ackward. OS X has a little something called finesse. Sure the gaming is nice on PC but thats where I draw the line.

They didnt invent anything they stole it from a company who sued/is suing them.

Yes I have, and it feels odd to me, yes a better interface, a few other features, and a security which no one bothers to break, that sounds good to me, but when I get to the user interface and file managing system it fails for me...it looks all neat and organized overall, but from my point of view Windows triumphs. Another thing is I don't really give a damn who copied who aslong as I get the polished software, to me it makes no diffrence if Apple made the freaking OS themselves and MS broke in during the night and stole it...

And I don't understand why do so many people think MS stole Apples ideas that are currently implemented in their update. Longhorn was announced a along time ago so were most of these feautures, but Apple managed to(I'm not gonna say they stole anything) release an update with these features not too long ago, while MS has been talking about these things for a long time...

And when I said "ignorance" you clearly didn't understad what part of the following sentence it supported. I didn't mean ignorance for discussing something, I also didn't mean stupidity as it infers to a different meaning, but I meant the time taken to talk about a topic that has more than enough threads all over the net already. Why do we keep discussing an overrated topic like this?! Just to show our ability of adding yet another among millions of similar comments...it gets old, so give it up, the ones who care are a minority.

I in no way mean to offend anyone or start a flame war here, because I know there will be someone that will get offended by this.

[Jexel]

What most people don't realise is that Apple DID NOT invent gui. Xerox did. Xerox also invented the concept of the mouse which Apple COPIED. I mean sure Xerox did not really want their new invention and did not have the forsight to realise that the concept of the GUI will revolutionise modern day computing. Apple took the idea off Xerox and simply made it their own. Microsoft at the time was helping Apple design new applications and working on Windows behind their backs. So if anybody should be complaining should be the people from Xerox as they are the creators of GUI.

Statements regarding MS copying Apple's UI is as redundant as the masses of iPod look-a-likes out there. I don't see as many people having a beef with Sony, Creative, iRive or Olympus over the similarity in design of their mp3 players compared to the iPod. The fact is once an good idea comes out everybody wants a piece of it.

[osirisX]

Wow, Microsoft copies some stuff and tries to make it different. This is called business. It happens all the time. Get over it.

[insurektion]

that finesse is immediately flushed down the gutter when you actually start using the system with incredibly backward Finder.... :pinch:

Speaking as someone who had a powerbook for 6 months (sold it in anticipation of intel based macs) I have to disagree.

Mount the dock on the right side and its way more productive.

Windows hasnt changed signifigantly since win 95. Seriously the added a most frequently used programs bar in xp and vista is just eye candy.

there is nothing new and innovative about vista at all they just hyped up this glass theme.

Actually, WinFS is extremely original and forward-looking. The Sidebar is quite original, in that in builds on design themes that began with Microsoft's "Dashboard" project back in the 90s.

"Glass" is also innovative and original in concept and implementation.

How so? What kind of changes are you looking for? It's easy to say "make it better" - but what did you have in mind?

WinFS? :rolleyes: Too bad you wont be seeing it anytime soon. OS X has incredible indexing ability that is FAST and USEFUL. Desktop search is a joke. A lame ripoff.

Glass is unique if you mean it looks sharp but thats where it stops.

I had a theme for shapeshifter (theme program for mac) that did glass nicely too. After the novelty wore off (a week) I was back to different themes.

Use a mac for a month and you will grow to love the logical design (and stability) of the OS.

Albeit Apple is writing for select hardware their OS is still more logical than Windows any day of the week and if you disagree you have never given it a fair chance (or are a dev for .Net)

[Ricky Smith Old]

Well I would hope the vista design wasnt inspired by OS X as the Vista Design is utter junk. It's just a horrible interface as far as i see.

[Stunna]

People say Microsoft copied Apples OSX gui design then a minute later they say vista is ugly.

Does that mean they think OSX is ugly?

[Jexel]

Those who use OSX thinks they're too good for windows but not good enough for linux.

Don't blame Microsoft for dominating the desktop, blame IBM for hiring MS and using off-the-shelf hardware rather than making their own. If IBM had failed to compete with Apple, then Apple would have become a monopoly and I wonder what people will then say about apple.

[neufuse Veteran]

if you think micrsoft never invents... you obviously never saw microsoft's research department then... they are doing things no one ever thought of..