Why Linux is so far behind...

[Barney T. Administrators]

this

Cheers

Thanks for sharing this article. It is one of the best I've read... :yes:

Barney

[Miuku.]

Oh no, not another thread of "Why doesn't it work like I want it to".

Having used Unices since 80s, I can offer quite a varied and different opinion from 'how things should work' , but to be honest - I can't be arsed to write a long article on the matter because it won't change anything.

People will argue, troll and nothing will change. Why? Because (almost) none of you are developing or contributing to the system itself but feel that whining will eventually achieve something.

Put your money where your mouth is and start programming, designing new GUI, accessibility, help newbies or be quiet.

Have a nice day.

[guru369]

Oh no, not another thread of "Why doesn't it work like I want it to".

Having used Unices since 80s, I can offer quite a varied and different opinion from 'how things should work' , but to be honest - I can't be arsed to write a long article on the matter because it won't change anything.

People will argue, troll and nothing will change. Why? Because (almost) none of you are developing or contributing to the system itself but feel that whining will eventually achieve something.

Put your money where your mouth is and start programming, designing new GUI, accessibility, help newbies or be quiet.

Have a nice day.

Touchy a little are'nt we?

I think this is also a contribution to the comunity.

Where do you think ideas to better application comes from??

Guru

[XerXis]

i use both linux and windows, my server is a debian distro. To be honest, i really can't see linux as the OS for everyday use. Here on neowin most people know their computer inside out. But 99% of the people hardly know what an OS is. And i regret to say that in my opinion for those people linux just doesn't suffice. Try installing a program on windows (mostly this means executing the installer) and install the same program (or an equivalent one) on linux. With a bit of luck apt-get does the work. But on most occasions you have to manually install some dependencies, or even build stuff from source. this is just to much for your everyday computer user.

[Simon Veteran]

I agree with much of what you say, but things are constantly getting better. User interfaces are improving, ease of use is improving, the community is growing, and there is more money. I don't think Linux is ready for my grandma yet, but it is getting pretty close, and in 5 years, I say Linux will be a great competitor for Mac and Windows.

[markwolfe Veteran]

...

Try installing a program on windows (mostly this means executing the installer) and install the same program (or an equivalent one) on linux. With a bit of luck apt-get does the work. But on most occasions you have to manually install some dependencies, or even build stuff from source. this is just to much for your everyday computer user.

My experience is quite different.

Linux distros generally come with all the set of apps that a typical user would need, so little or no "installing" is necessary. And, could you provide an example of what app you tried to apt-get and ran into unresolved deps? Must have been something rather odd and experimental. Certainly not a mainstream app for an 'everyday' computer user.

[Miuku.]

I think this is also a contribution to the comunity.

No, it's stating the same issue over and over and over again, things that have been said a million times before. It's like running a circle and never realizing you've been going around your whole life.

The GUI/software developers like KDE/GNOME are well aware of the usability issues of their respected environments because it's been a hot issue for years and every possible angle has been discussed a million times already. KDE has a special team set for designing a better, more useable interface for their system while the programmers take care of stability and adding features as time permits.

The biggest issue is that hardware vendors actively refuse any support, not the OS itself. That has been discussed to death as well and nothing is changing by simply moaning about the issue. Whining never helps anything.

[XerXis]

My experience is quite different.

Linux distros generally come with all the set of apps that a typical user would need, so little or no "installing" is necessary. And, could you provide an example of what app you tried to apt-get and ran into unresolved deps? Must have been something rather odd and experimental. Certainly not a mainstream app for an 'everyday' computer user.

well yesterday it was mono, as there are more and more programs using it, mono and thus .net is slowly coming to live on linux (regret it or not)

[matt74441]

The biggest issue is that hardware vendors actively refuse any support, not the OS itself. That has been discussed to death as well and nothing is changing by simply moaning about the issue. Whining never helps anything.

That is certainly a big one. I've had Linux on my laptop for 6 months and I still can't get suspend-to-ram to work (screen goes black but never comes back) and hibernate support won't work (suspend and suspend2). Heck the reason that ndiswrapper is used so much in laptops is because Broadcom chips power most of the wireless cards, and Broadcom has essentially told the Linux community to head for the hills and not reveal how their stuff works.

[xxdesmus]

With a bit of luck apt-get does the work. But on most occasions you have to manually install some dependencies, or even build stuff from source. this is just to much for your everyday computer user.

That is odd, in my experiences with apt-get (which i love by the way) i've almost never run into problems where apt-get did not download dependencies that i needed. Which apt-get distro were you using? Just call it curiousity...

[fudgetunnel]

No, it's stating the same issue over and over and over again, things that have been said a million times before. It's like running a circle and never realizing you've been going around your whole life.

The GUI/software developers like KDE/GNOME are well aware of the usability issues of their respected environments because it's been a hot issue for years and every possible angle has been discussed a million times already. KDE has a special team set for designing a better, more useable interface for their system while the programmers take care of stability and adding features as time permits.

The biggest issue is that hardware vendors actively refuse any support, not the OS itself. That has been discussed to death as well and nothing is changing by simply moaning about the issue. Whining never helps anything.

Interesting point of view, considering you seem to be whining about people whining instead of offering anything valuable. Which makes your posts on this issue doubly worthless. :whistle:

[Barney T. Administrators]

Heck the reason that ndiswrapper is used so much in laptops is because Broadcom chips power most of the wireless cards, and Broadcom has essentially told the Linux community to head for the hills and not reveal how their stuff works.

I agree that wireless is indeed tricky.......... but I've got my wireless cards working with a bit of research and some time configuring. True, Windows users (and Linux users for that matter) would be satisfied if you simply plugged in the card and it configured itself........ but as most have said, the manufacturers don't want to spend the time developing the drivers......... hence ndiswrapper.

And the whole hardware incompatibility issue is probably the main reason that Linux will never be embraced by the masses. If that hurdle is ever overcome, I'm sure there would be a huge flux in enthusiastic noobs!

** BTW: These threads always turn into flame vs troll tournaments............ I think everyone should just settle down and agree to disagree on some of these points... :blush: **

Barney

[Mouldy Punk]

It's the little things that annoy me about linux. Such as having to unmute a bunch of channels etc to get all my speakers working. Why the hell were they muted to begin with? Why do I have to modify my xorg.conf file to get resolutions higher than 1024x768 when I have the correct drivers installed for both my monitor and my graphics card? Why did I need to faff around with my sources.list file so I can install things like w32codecs. What difference does it make if the source is already in the list from install, or if I add it in afterwards? Why isn't there an easy way to modify the Gnome applications menu? A minor problem I had earlier was that whenever I mounted my NTFS partitions, nautilus would pop up showing them. Why the hell would any sane person want that enabled by default? Those damn windows popped up every time I booted.

There are more "important" annoyances aswell, but the small ones build up. Someone mentioned something about wireless support being rubbish, then someone replied saying it's not the fault of linux, it's the fault of the driver vendors or whoever. You can play the blame game as much as you like, but the bottom line is that wireless hardware works fine in windows but rarely works in linux. Playing the blame game doesn't get things solved. If you want official linux drivers, start a revolution and get the manufacturers to supply them, or make your own.

But hey, you have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever. It's free. You can pay for support from companies such as Novell and they'll help you out, but to all those people who try the free distros and have problems; Tough, make something better.

[Rob2687]

Some codecs can't be included in the install because of copyrights or some legal crap.

Wireless support is pretty good, at least in my experience.

Edited February 21, 2006 by Rob2687

[Mouldy Punk]

Some codecs can't be included in the install because of copyrights or some legal crap.

<snip>

Yet it seems perfectly fine to just add a line to your sources.list or whatever and get all the codecs for totally free anyway?

Seems like nobody actually cares about the legal side of things and distro-makers do it just to annoy people :p

[fudgetunnel]

Yet it seems perfectly fine to just add a line to your sources.list or whatever and get all the codecs for totally free anyway?

Seems like nobody actually cares about the legal side of things and distro-makers do it just to annoy people :p

Yeah, not like they are concerned with being sued or anything, or want to promote free alternatives, they just do it to annoy their users. :|

[Mouldy Punk]

Yeah, not like they are concerned with being sued or anything, or want to promote free alternatives, they just do it to annoy their users. :|

If they were that concerned about being sued then they wouldn't have information plastered all over their sites saying how to get the codecs. It would be like microsoft telling us on their site where to pirate photoshop from.

[fudgetunnel]

If they were that concerned about being sued then they wouldn't have information plastered all over their sites saying how to get the codecs. It would be like microsoft telling us on their site where to pirate photoshop from.

It's called liability. They don't host it. I can tell you where to buy a gun, and teach you how to shoot it; but I'm not responsible if you go buy one to shoot up the post office. Get it?

[markwolfe Veteran]

Yet it seems perfectly fine to just add a line to your sources.list or whatever and get all the codecs for totally free anyway?

Seems like nobody actually cares about the legal side of things and distro-makers do it just to annoy people :p

That is a matter of the users taking on the responsibility, based on the laws in their country (since those laws may differ from location to location). If the distro makers provided patented technologies, or other items that had non-freely redistributable licenses, then they would be liable for any legal actions that would arise.

It is a shame that litigation is such a dark spectre over freedom to distribute free/libre software.

[Mouldy Punk]

It's called liability. They don't host it. I can tell you where to buy a gun, and teach you how to shoot it; but I'm not responsible if you go buy one to shoot up the post office. Get it?

So microsoft could put instructions on their site telling you exactly what sites you can download photoshop for free from and as long as they put a little disclaimer saying "Don't download this unless you're country doesn't care" it would be OK?

I'm only messing around, I'm being a ****** on purpose. But why couldn't they have an option during installation to install "Propriety codecs" or "Copyright codecs" or whatever and make you accept a disclaimer? I'm pretty sure everybody lies, or is unaware of the law's stand of it, when they download patented codecs anyway.

[ichi]

The sources.list thing has always annoyed me a bit, hence why I use gentoo.

[Barney T. Administrators]

I'm only messing around, I'm being a ****** on purpose.

No need for that. Everyone here is mature enough to handle an intelligent, well thought out discussion...... :yes:

Barney

[Aaron Veteran]

i use both linux and windows, my server is a debian distro. To be honest, i really can't see linux as the OS for everyday use. Here on neowin most people know their computer inside out. But 99% of the people hardly know what an OS is. And i regret to say that in my opinion for those people linux just doesn't suffice. Try installing a program on windows (mostly this means executing the installer) and install the same program (or an equivalent one) on linux. With a bit of luck apt-get does the work. But on most occasions you have to manually install some dependencies, or even build stuff from source. this is just to much for your everyday computer user.

First, apt-get using ubuntus repos has never ever failed me.

Secondly, just because it is more difficult then Windows, why is that a reason it can't be an everyday system? We need to all stop thinking in a "one way" paradigm as we are used to doing (Windows only).

[Mouldy Punk]

No need for that. Everyone here is mature enough to handle an intelligent, well thought out discussion...... :yes:

Barney

Yes, I know. But my point is still half valid. If distro providers are willing to provide detailed instructions on how to obtain non-free codecs, why not just build it into the installer and get it to download the codecs from somewhere if the user accepts some sort of disclaimer? Either way the outcome is the same, except this way the user will have multimedia support without the hassle of manually editing config files, which is a hassle for someone who has never used linux before.

[matt74441]

First, apt-get using ubuntus repos has never ever failed me.

Really? I've had Debian repos completely crap out on me before. Gentoo has done it too.