Winsxs and general Windows folder NTFS compression

[TheRPG]

Well, I have here quite massive amount of tools and backups made from Windows Vista x86 ultimate now and I have no problem smashing system up 50 times a day, if that is what it needs, but now I am begin to wonder the compatibility of NTFS Compression of this huge ass folder 'winsxs' "Side by Side" hard linked from system32 folder.

The folder is size of ~3,7Gb in system around 3,5Gb in clean installed system and it grows when you compress it you can easily squeeze it around ~1,5-2.2Gb, but there's this error I have now tested 4 times and every single time something/some service has stopped function totally after reboot. Like it would be directly linked to that compression operation. I know there is Event Logs all the 3rd party services and so on. So called solution for 'dll hell', but what I am curious. Am I missing here something now and some of those actually does support compression, if so which and why?

I know today we have large ars HDDs on our use but got really fast 22Gb HDD here on my root and that ain't gonna give up the space too much.

Also interested in same blow.. folder \Windows\System32\DriverStore which is over 1Gb.. Idiotic.. Driver storage hell there is less than 50Mb of actual drivers in machine.. and I need 1Gb driver storage.. (Ofcourse I understand that there everything needs to be covered)

[Grope for Luna]

I ripped over a GB out of mine... mostly videos and games. Use a program like NTFSRatio to check the size of each subfolder and compress the largest ones. I will give it a try now.

[-Pats]

Ive worked on 100s of NT4, 2K, XP, Vista systems. I strongly recommend that you never compress anything used by the OS, even infrequently. Fooling around with OS files and folders (compression, deleting, etc.) can be catastrophic and may kill your system performance.

If you need more hard drive space, just add another drive. Gigs are so cheap! If you need better performance, clean with CCleaner and defrag with Ultimate Defrag regularly.

[Grope for Luna]

It's not worth compressing the entire folders anyway as many of the files barely compress at all. Best to do a search by size and try to compress the biggest files if you think it's worth it. Search for all of the movie and sound files and you can get rid of a gig or so.

[Linkinfamous]

Use disk cleanup to have it automatically compress files that haven't been used in a while. If a file is used by the OS, you don't want to add the overhead of decompressing it.

[Beastage]

I was under the impression that NTFS compression is perfectly safe with system files... I was also under the impression that windows supposed to handle the compression in a way it won't break its own system

[-Pats]

I was under the impression that NTFS compression is perfectly safe with system files... I was also under the impression that windows supposed to handle the compression in a way it won't break its own system

Anytime you are working with a compressed file, the OS has to decompress to view, than recompress to save. Why add all that extra processing? I suppose newer systems can handle this, but if you are a gamer, you should be tweaking your system for the best gaming performance and not add extra overhead and unnecessary foolishness

[Grope for Luna]

It's best to use VLite and remove a lot of the extraneous crap to begin with.

[Linkinfamous]

I was under the impression that NTFS compression is perfectly safe with system files... I was also under the impression that windows supposed to handle the compression in a way it won't break its own system

It should be perfectly safe. It just might hurt performance.

[TheRPG]

I did not want here any depate of how to clean your hdd or how to do something to keep it clean. I need knowledge not bull****. However professional that is from me to say it here. I expected to see here pro's only conversation not some CCleaner people trying to help. So please.. If anyone knows Why, what & how does the NTFS mess up that space of HDD while it is compressed the hardcoded files at 'system32\' will compress also ofcourse. Is that also the 'system32' space which can't be compressed then? and if so what files. hell send a list of files which cannot be compressed.

and this speed issue space & size is more important than an system speed by all means as said I got way enough speed on HDD workgrounds what I do not have is the space. I have time to test, but maybe there is someone who can tell me what is not compatible in Windows Vista folders for compression.

NTFSRatio buh, get real.. Hell I can get that **** with a simply 15 seconds script of Dirlister.

@-pats

I have also builded systems since 1987 and I am more that specialist of system optimizing as I assumed people beeing here in the first place when I raised the question. I know almost every single file through windows systems one after another and what they do. My point wasn't to asks what is dangerous or slow and what is not. What I asked was WHY I cannot do that & what hardcoded drivers will mess up and what doesn't and, if/since they do mess up as I said I have allready tryied it multible times WHY does those mess up..

[Grope for Luna]

Your diction is so mangled and your post so rambling, no one knew what you were asking anyway. :p

Edited April 22, 2007 by Grope for Luna

[Grope for Luna]

BTW, I compressed winsxs and it worked fine so the problem is on your end. If you were such a "specialist of system optimizing" you wouldn't waste your time compressiing files that don't compress much anyway. That's why I recommended NTFSRatio to make it easier.

NTFSRatio buh, get real.. Hell I can get that **** with a simply 15 seconds script of Dirlister.

NTFSRatio allows you to sort the folders/files by compressed size/compression ratio and [de]compress them by right click within the interface. The dirlister I've seen is just a listing program.

[TheRPG]

yes I know NTFSRatio can do that. My point simply is that I did not ask what you people are telling me.

I asked why I cannot compress some system files and what is that thing which cannot be compressed which messes up Event log & several services like Network diagnostics. What files does it use and where those are located.

I did never ask "how to clean my drive", "how to compress those files" or "does that slow the system".. I asked quite specified questions from people who knows the system as well as I do, if they would know what might/will mess up when you compress 'winsxs' and is that same with 'system32'. Nothing else.

[greenreaper]

In theory, compression should not cause any problems. In practice, it can.

For example, I had a recent problem trying to install IIS 7. I had compressed the winsxs folder. In particular, I had compressed this folder:

C:\Windows\winsxs\x86_microsoft-windows-iis-sharedlibraries_31bf3856ad364e35_6.0.6001.18000_none_10e972c4b4d2574c

The Windows Process Activation Service (which is required by many components of IIS 7) failed to install. I eventually tracked this down by looking at c:\windows\logs\cbs\cbs.log (have to take a copy of it, since the original is locked). A piece of code was failing, and giving this error:

{ (null) -> 6.0.6001.18000 Microsoft-Windows-IIS-W3SVC.Resources, pA = PROCESSOR_ARCHITECTURE_INTEL (0), Culture = [l:10{5}]"en-US", VersionScope = 1 nonSxS, PublicKeyToken = {l:8 b:31bf3856ad364e35}, Type neutral, TypeName neutral, PublicKey neutral }

{ (null) -> 6.0.6001.18000 40ccf7524e0fba7e49a0db34996adc60, pA = PROCESSOR_ARCHITECTURE_INTEL (0), Culture neutral, VersionScope = 1 nonSxS, PublicKeyToken = {l:8 b:31bf3856ad364e35}, Type neutral, TypeName neutral, PublicKey neutral }

2008-05-13 19:43:16, Info CSI 0000001e ICSITransaction::Commit calling IStorePendingTransaction::Apply - coldpatching=FALSE applyflags=15 (0x0000000f)

2008-05-13 19:43:16, Info CSI 0000001f Creating NT transaction (seq 3), objectname [6]"(null)"

2008-05-13 19:43:16, Info CSI 00000020 Created NT transaction (seq 3) result 0x00000000, handle @0x13f3c

2008-05-13 19:43:19, Error CSI 00000021 (F) STATUS_INVALID_PARAMETER #5932745# from Windows::Rtl::SystemImplementation::CFile_IRtlFileTearoff::SetAttributes(Attributes = 2048 (0x00000800))[gle=0xd000000d]

2008-05-13 19:43:19, Error CSI 00000022@2008/5/13:23:43:19.556 (F) d:\rtm\base\wcp\sil\silp.h(2661): Error STATUS_INVALID_PARAMETER originated in function Windows::Rtl::SystemImplementation::CFile_IRtlFileTearoff::SetAttributes expression: Valid flags check failed: Attributes

[gle=0x80004005]

2008-05-13 19:43:24, Info CSI 00000023 Error STATUS_INVALID_PARAMETER while executing operation SetFileInformation on [l:134{67}]"\??\C:\Windows\System32\inetsrv\config\schema\rscaext.xml, N/A, N/A"

(this is after playing with it; originally, the error was on FX_schema.xml)

Decompressing all of the XML files in the above folder solved this problem and allowed me to install IIS.

Now, I do not want to dissuade you from compressing those folders - the right solution is for Microsoft to fix this and any other such issues. But I would only recommend doing so if you are prepared to diagnose such problems - with nothing to go on except something randomly not working as expected (because that will probably be the symptom).

Edited May 14, 2008 by greenreaper

[Brandon Live Veteran]

Is this tiny amount of disk space really significant to you guys? How large is your hard drive?

NTFS compression is best avoided, especially for something like winsxs. Unless you like having a really slow computer.

[greenreaper]

Is this tiny amount of disk space really significant to you guys? How large is your hard drive?

NTFS compression is best avoided, especially for something like winsxs. Unless you like having a really slow computer.

I have a 60GB laptop drive on which I have shoehorned XP, Vista and several development environments and SDKs. Plus I rip videos and store photos in RAW format on it now and then. I like to make the most of the space I have. Plus, think of all the people with flash drives! :-)

I don't see why it would be particularly slower. It might even end up faster, given a fast enough CPU. NTFS compression is designed to be fast to read, and I could see the decreased disk access beating the need for decompression cycles. I typically get around a 25%-35% size saving, which is not insignificant.

Also bear in mind that these files are rarely accessed; compressing them means that defrag can move other files closer to the front of the disk, which definitely will speed their access (except for the aforementioned flash). What you really don't want to do is compress something you write to regularly, like a database or mail store, as doing so is likely to be very painful.

Edited May 14, 2008 by greenreaper

[+BudMan MVC]

how are you viewing the size of the winsxs folder?

"NTFS Compression of this huge ass folder 'winsxs' "Side by Side" hard linked from system32 folder."

Seems you do understand that most of what is in winsxs are hardlinks.. So they are not taking up space, they are link to the space that the file is taking up.. So yes tools can report the folder as size X.. but in reality is not.

I would really suggest you stop wasting time looking to shaving a few gig here or there in your OS/Program files -- if your running out of space for what you want to do.. Then get a bigger drive -- its seems clear that 60GB drive in your laptop is too small for what you want to do.. So what your going to squeeze what 1 or 2 GB of space by compressing all of your system/program files?

Lets see "25%-35%", you state "The folder is size of ~3,7Gb" so lets round it up to 4GB of real space -- forget the hardlinks.. So your dicking around trying to compress system files for a savings of 35% of 4GB = 1.4GB?? Really? But not really --- since the winsxs is hardlinks!! But lets call it real space.

How about you buy a new hard drive??

I'm quite sure you can find a 120GB 7200 rpm 3GB sata laptop drive for like $100 --- thats double the size you have, and more than likely a faster drive as well. Would that not be money and time better spent, then dicking around trying to squeeze a few hundred MB out of a compressing system files?? For a few bucks more you could get a 160GB drive, etc.

So lets say you can squeeze 2GB extra out of your drive by compressing system files.. At 120GB for $100 your looking what less than 85 cents a GB or 1.4 * .85 a $1.20 ---> So your dicking around with compressing system files for $1.20???

Get a bigger HDD if your out of space ;)

Edited May 14, 2008 by BudMan

[greenreaper]

Seems you do understand that most of what is in winsxs are hardlinks.. So they are not taking up space, they are link to the space that the file is taking up.. So yes tools can report the folder as size X.. but in reality is not.

The savings are the same. It just means the "real" file ends up compressed (though arguably the one in winsxs is just as real) - the very files that are not normally modified by the operating system and hence are ripe targets for compression.

In addition, this compresses all the features that you have not installed.

... How about you buy a new hard drive. ...

Where would the fun be in that? :) My objective is to get the most out of the hardware that I have. I find this sort of thing amusing; that's why I'm here. I don't recommend it for those who don't.

[schatz87]

...I would really suggest you stop wasting time looking to shaving a few gig here or there in your OS/Program files -- if your running out of space for what you want to do.. Then get a bigger drive -- its seems clear that 60GB drive in your laptop is too small for what you want to do.. So what your going to squeeze what 1 or 2 GB of space by compressing all of your system/program files?

...How about you buy a new hard drive??

...

Get a bigger HDD if your out of space ;)

The above response doesn't even begin to answer the question!! The issue has nothing at all to do with the price of hard drives. For example, I use a laptop Macbook Pro with a 120 GB hard drive, partitioned with dual boot system with Vista NTFS drive having a maximum of 26 GB. The winsxs subfolder is eating up 11 GB of this drive right now, with hardly any programs installed!

This means my Vista can't update to SP2 and crashes during the update process.

A more realistic view at this problem is looking at the HD size as finite and final - as something that can't be altered or updated. (A new expensive macbook pro drive would be required, the whole multiboot system moved, etc, etc. Forget it).

Just by looking at a few forums at the web this is a problem for a lot of people. For hundreds of different reasons. And it's not going to go away by simply suggesting people buy new hard drives, unless of course, Microsoft is willing to take the cost for it...

So the only realistic thing to do is either compressing the folder (or major parts of it) or erasing stuff that's not required from it. This is what needs to be answered.

Edited November 16, 2009 by schatz87

[+BudMan MVC]

So your spending time searching the web finding other "____"s that don't understand how the winsxs folder works either -- good for you!

http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/11/19/disk-space.aspx

"In practice, nearly every file in the WinSxS directory is a “hard link” to the physical files elsewhere on the system—meaning that the files are not actually in this directory. For instance in the WinSxS there might be a file called advapi32.dll that takes up >700K however what’s being reported is a hard link to the actual file that lives in the Windows\System32, and it will be counted twice (or more) when simply looking at the individual directories from Windows Explorer."

"While it’s true that WinSxS does consume some disk space by simply existing, and there are a number of metadata files, folders, manifests, and catalogs in it, it’s significantly smaller than reported. The actual amount of storage consumed varies, but on a typical system it is about 400MB. While that is not small, we think the robustness provided for servicing is a reasonable tradeoff."

My statement still stands -- if what your doing is filling up your yes finite HDD.. Get a bigger one.

As to your macbook pro drive?? Dude I don't care what brand you bought, or how expensive you think it is?? 2.5 Laptop drives are very Reasonable in price -- if yours is too small for what your doing "dual boot" for example.. Vs wasting your time trying to squeeze a gig here and a gig there out of your OS.. Get a drive better suited in size for what your wanting to do.

"(A new expensive macbook pro drive would be required, the whole multiboot system moved, etc, etc. Forget it)." Not sure what you think is expensive -- when you dropped how much on your Macbook Pro??

160GB 2.5" drives are about $50... To double your 120GB to 250GB your talking about $55 to $75... Really Breaking the Bank there!

As to your 11GB being used by winsxs.. Read the link I gave -- I HIGHLY doubt its 11GB since its mostly links to files..