OS X.5: A review from a former Wintel User

[Andre S. Veteran]

I've been using a mac daily for about 3 years, and I've never noticed this, can you point it out?

Ok, look at the top of the screen. There's a taskbar there. A grey one. Usually you have "Finder" written there. It changes depending on the app though. Now at the bottom of the screen you have that animated transparent dock. That's another one.

[MasterC]

The Windows taskbar not only manages windows, but also applications (with the quick laucnh - much more subtle), most of the computer's basic functionality (with the start menu), applications running in the background (with the system tray), and you can even drag and drop your own folders there for quick access to your most useful stuff. For instance, I can create a folder called "Games", put all my game desktop shortcuts in there, and drop it in the bar. Then with a single click I have access to all my games.

You can do the same on OS X. ;)

The OS X dock takes a lot more space and does more to capture your attention (with animations, large icons), but does a whole lot less. Again, I find the Windows solution more practical and elegant.

You can change the size and turn off the "animations", too. If you don't like having the dock big, it shrinks down pretty small.

[giga Veteran]

Well I'm not necessarily multitasking. When I work in Visual Studio there are times when I need other applications in my view, and there are times when I need maximum space for the code. You can have multiple panes open in VS. Then you are multitasking inside the app. Then you don't want to OS to interfere with large taskbar jumping at you or not let you easily maximize or reduce the window.

Maximizing a window with a single or double click is a convenience I've used since I started using PCs. I can't help but feel clumsy with an OS that doesn't give me that basic tool. Even Linux does.

The Windows taskbar not only manages windows, but also applications (with the quick laucnh - much more subtle), most of the computer's basic functionality (with the start menu), applications running in the background (with the system tray), and you can even drag and drop your own folders there for quick access to your most useful stuff. For instance, I can create a folder called "Games", put all my game desktop shortcuts in there, and drop it in the bar. Then with a single click I have access to all my games.

The OS X dock takes a lot more space and does more to capture your attention (with animations, large icons), but does a whole lot less. Again, I find the Windows solution more practical and elegant.

Yes, Visual Studio isn't a part of OS X but there are other applications as well that have multiples panes in which you organize your workflow. (Photoshop being an example). Large workflow specific applications such as these have the maximize feature built in if you need it. Otherwise, the zoom feature is far more efficient to me as I like to keep an eye on my desktop and other applications in the background. I would definitely love to see zoom in my Windows tower that I use.

I don't want non-standard menubars for each and every single application--that's a waste of pixels. It's far easier to just flick your mouse to the top where there will always be a menu bar with access to all the functions you need. The menu bar provides a consistent location where people can look for commands. Each application, including the Finder, has its own menu bar consisting of a few standard menus, application-specific menus, and menu extras.

As far as the windows taskbar and navigation--the Dock/Menubar does all that? The Dock can be as subtle as you want--just reduce the size of it and/or turn off the animations. Applications running in the background is right under the icon. Drag/Drop folders are also there but now with stacks if you want. (Not to mention that it's all spring loaded).

The Dock is a desktop application designed to reduce desktop clutter, provide users with feedback about an application, and allow users to switch easily between tasks--all into one. Items in the Dock provide users with useful feedback about what the items represent. For example, images in the Dock are shown in preview mode, so it?s apparent what the image is without opening it. Again, it's a different concept from the Windows taskbar way of switching but more intuitive to me as I can identify my items in the dock almost instantly because it's visual oriented--just hover over them if you need to see the actual title of the window that's in the background/minimized/etc.

I'm not even getting into Expose, Spaces, Spotlight/Quicksilver which makes navigation and organization far more simpler and quicker.

But if Windows works for you, then that's good and you should use it if it's what you're accustomed to.

Ok, look at the top of the screen. There's a taskbar there. A grey one. Usually you have "Finder" written there. It changes depending on the app though. Now at the bottom of the screen you have that animated transparent dock. That's another one.

It's a menubar, not a taskbar. It's basically the equivalent of "File Edit View Tools Options Etc" in Windows as well as holding status icons for the system and applications which make use of it.

[Cormier6083]

Wow, this thread really exploded. Where do I start?

Ok, look at the top of the screen. There's a taskbar there. A grey one. Usually you have "Finder" written there. It changes depending on the app though. Now at the bottom of the screen you have that animated transparent dock. That's another one.

Yes, but the difference is so subtle. When I have an expanded window, it's almost like the bar is one with the app.

Edited February 8, 2008 by Cormier6083

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Ok, look at the top of the screen. There's a taskbar there. A grey one. Usually you have "Finder" written there. It changes depending on the app though. Now at the bottom of the screen you have that animated transparent dock. That's another one.

Uh, that's a menu bar.

Have you ever used a mac?

[Borbus]

Could you explain on who OSX forces you to do something a particular way, but windows (without extensions) doesn't?

Maybe it's just lack of software for OSX, but there are some things Apple don't think you need to do and for that reason it's really hard to do them. Playing FLAC or Vorbis, for example. Free codecs, they could've put them into iTunes for free, but nobody uses them, right? I believe there's some lengthy method for getting it to play in iTunes, and there's one other media player I'm aware of that supports it (cog). But only iTunes has it's database integrate with the spotlight search thing. So if you want to use that effectively, you have to use iTunes.

Some of the things it encourages you to do are good, though. Like the use of PDF. I can't say I've ever had a Mac user send me a proprietary iThing file type.

Visual Studio isn't available on OSX for obvious reasons... It's aimed towards making windows only programs. Real programmers use vim anyway ;)

[evo_spook]

Maybe it's just lack of software for OSX, but there are some things Apple don't think you need to do and for that reason it's really hard to do them. Playing FLAC or Vorbis, for example. Free codecs, they could've put them into iTunes for free, but nobody uses them, right? I believe there's some lengthy method for getting it to play in iTunes, and there's one other media player I'm aware of that supports it (cog). But only iTunes has it's database integrate with the spotlight search thing. So if you want to use that effectively, you have to use iTunes.

Some of the things it encourages you to do are good, though. Like the use of PDF. I can't say I've ever had a Mac user send me a proprietary iThing file type.

Visual Studio isn't available on OSX for obvious reasons... It's aimed towards making windows only programs. Real programmers use vim anyway ;)

Well out of the only complaint thing I can see is the iTunes thing.

I think in regards to Flac or Vorbis, that is more a politics, marketing and legal issue. But there be many free flac vorbis players around, and itunes is one single player, as this is a windows comparison issue, I must ask does the Zune software allow you to use Flac and Vorbis?

as with the PDF, it is useful, but again, it doesn't force you to use it, you are able to use 3rd party pdf applications, acrobat asks you if you want to make it the default viewer

[Borbus]

Well for PDF I was talking about being able to export documents as PDF. In windows you have to install a virtual printer using ghostcsript to make PDFs.

And you are right, WMP does not play FLAC or Vorbis by default. I'm not sure how hard it is to get it to play it, I don't think anyone really uses it any more, do they? So yeah I suppose it is just a lack of alternative software for OSX. Which is surprising really because it's supposed to be more popular than Linux etc. but has a lot less software...

[evo_spook]

I think thats more to do with Flac and Vorbis having open source roots

Oh, must add

on th windows/pdf thing as compared to OSX, you can't really fault MS on that, this is due to Adobe not allowing MS to implement PDF into Windows

[Borbus]

But PDF is an open standard. They don't need Adobe's permission. That's why most linux distributions will come with a PDF reader (built in to gnome and KDE, and way faster than every windows implementation of PDF for some reason).

[evo_spook]

But PDF is an open standard. They don't need Adobe's permission. That's why most linux distributions will come with a PDF reader (built in to gnome and KDE, and way faster than every windows implementation of PDF for some reason).

I think there must still be permission needed from Adobe, as I recall (on Neowin news) quite clearly MS wanting to put EXPORT TO PDF into Word and Adobe saying no

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Apple are worried about "submarine patents" regarding Vorbis and such, they don't really have to worry about those in regards to MPEG codecs.

[Andre S. Veteran]

Yes, Visual Studio isn't a part of OS X but there are other applications as well that have multiples panes in which you organize your workflow. (Photoshop being an example). Large workflow specific applications such as these have the maximize feature built in if you need it. Otherwise, the zoom feature is far more efficient to me as I like to keep an eye on my desktop and other applications in the background. I would definitely love to see zoom in my Windows tower that I use.

I don't want non-standard menubars for each and every single application--that's a waste of pixels. It's far easier to just flick your mouse to the top where there will always be a menu bar with access to all the functions you need. The menu bar provides a consistent location where people can look for commands. Each application, including the Finder, has its own menu bar consisting of a few standard menus, application-specific menus, and menu extras.

As far as the windows taskbar and navigation--the Dock/Menubar does all that? The Dock can be as subtle as you want--just reduce the size of it and/or turn off the animations. Applications running in the background is right under the icon. Drag/Drop folders are also there but now with stacks if you want. (Not to mention that it's all spring loaded).

The Dock is a desktop application designed to reduce desktop clutter, provide users with feedback about an application, and allow users to switch easily between tasks--all into one. Items in the Dock provide users with useful feedback about what the items represent. For example, images in the Dock are shown in preview mode, so it’s apparent what the image is without opening it. Again, it's a different concept from the Windows taskbar way of switching but more intuitive to me as I can identify my items in the dock almost instantly because it's visual oriented--just hover over them if you need to see the actual title of the window that's in the background/minimized/etc.

I'm not even getting into Expose, Spaces, Spotlight/Quicksilver which makes navigation and organization far more simpler and quicker.

But if Windows works for you, then that's good and you should use it if it's what you're accustomed to.

Yes, I suppose that's the most reasonable thing to say. I've used a Mac for a year when I was forced to, in school, and could never become accustomed to it. I was just a whole lot less productive. But I guess once you "master" the OS it's fine. Mind you, I don't pretend to "master" Windows at all.

As I said the main reason I don't find use for a Mac is not how the OS looks or behave, it's the apps I use. Macs put very hard limits on the hardware and software you may use. Windows is freedom in comparison.

It's a menubar, not a taskbar. It's basically the equivalent of "File Edit View Tools Options Etc" in Windows as well as holding status icons for the system and applications which make use of it.

Not really the equivalent, because it pertains more to the OS than to the application. It's always there. It's a feature of OSX: all apps shall provide functionality for that bar.

Anyway, just nitpicking. Nice thing you remain cool-headed. It's impossible to say I don't like OSX for this and that reason without an army of frenzied Apple Guardians charging to the rescue of their Holy Land. I remember there was a survey which revealed Mac users were in general more open-minded than Windows users. I don't know what questions they asked, but they sure aren't generally more open-minded when it comes to their OS of choice, and how evil and inferior and despicable Windows is. The days of Windows ME are over, dudes, XP and Vista are awesome stuff.

I find the most open-ended people to be Linux users, probably because Linux itself is something very flexible which comes in multiple flavours, where the GUI isn't as fundamental, and usually they are aware of the limits of Linux and will use Windows if necessary.

[evo_spook]

Why am I even arguing with you I wonder :rolleyes:

The reason why I said, why bother, is you made a statement that you didnt back up with any evidence and if you a percentage of neutral observers would class as wrong. The statement you said

Next, Safari font rendering looks horrible, and Apple keyboards, mice and lcd screens are simply among the cheapest I ever saw.

Oh yeah OS X is better for multimedia. Right. I had Digital Performer hang or crash at least once everyday on the G4 I used for a year

Safari font rendering? I prefer to my windows explorer, its personal opinion.

Keyboards, I've used some excellent Apple Keyboards, yes, the old, free performar ones were a bit substandard, but other Mac ones were excellent for touch typing

Digital Performer? Sorry, in the Windows forums, if a application keeps crashing you usually blame the App instead of the Machine or OS, why use different rules for Apple?

As I said, it seemed pointless arguing as most of the arguments were matched by its equivelent windows OS and personal opinion

[WelshBluebird]

Digital Performer? Sorry, in the Windows forums, if a application keeps crashing you usually blame the App instead of the Machine or OS, why use different rules for Apple?

actually I beg to differ.

Most people who moan about windows, are moaning about BSOD's or instabilities caused by 3rd party applications or drivers. Yet people go onto say windows is buggy (which of course it is), but try to blame the crash or whatever on the OS, when its clearly the app thats at fault.

[Borbus]

Apple are worried about "submarine patents" regarding Vorbis and such, they don't really have to worry about those in regards to MPEG codecs.

Is that their excuse? Poor...

[evo_spook]

Is that their excuse? Poor...

Oh I don't know, offering it, doesn't gain them much, so why take the risk

Its a bit like Neowin with OSX on PCs

A post here and there is probs not going to get them sued by Apple, but why chance it

[Borbus]

OS X is actually the brand name for the operating system called Darwin. Darwin is a free and open source Unix OS which has been derived from other open source OSes like FreeBSD. So they obviously don't have a problem with open source software.

Of course there is the little fact that FLAC and Vorbis are direct competitors of ALAC and AAC, the latter of which can contain their DRM, the former cannot (and are both better).

[Cormier6083]

The discussion has gotten a little bit off track. This isn't about technical mumbo jumbo. This is about normal people everyday people switching to OS X (of course, I know a bit about computers, but that isn't the point).

[Xilo]

For anyone that complains of a lack of right click, just simply plug in a different mouse you would use on a PC...

[crazzyyfool]

^ Or use the Mighty Mouse or trackpad and enable right-click in the settings.

[Quillz]

OS X is actually the brand name for the operating system called Darwin. Darwin is a free and open source Unix OS which has been derived from other open source OSes like FreeBSD. So they obviously don't have a problem with open source software.

Of course there is the little fact that FLAC and Vorbis are direct competitors of ALAC and AAC, the latter of which can contain their DRM, the former cannot (and are both better).

Not entirely correct. Darwin is just the open-source kernel, Mac OS X is a closed-source OS that has four layers: Darwin, QT/Quartz/OpenGL, Classic/Carbon/Cocoa and Aqua. While it's true that Apple provides the Darwin source code available for download, that alone won't give you OS X.