Mac OS X Snow Leopard Discussion

[the evn show]

They're bundled inside iTunes.rsrc. Why? iTunes had to carry all of those interface elements inside its own package contents because Mac OS 9 didn't feature Aqua. Absolutely clueless why it's still that way today. No idea what the role of those new matte scrollbars are in the first place.

Given that you didn't even know that iTunes was still lugging around it's widget graphics I'd say there's little real harm in it.

Also consider that it would take some time to re-write iTunes to use the resources provided by the operating system and that it does a lot of custom drawing, notably in the store, there's some reason not to. Add to that the need to support Windows and older versions of Mac OS X which don't provide the same UI elements that 10.6 does it begins to make even less sense if cross-platfrom UI consistency is a primary goal.

[.Neo]

Given that you didn't even know that iTunes was still lugging around it's widget graphics I'd say there's little real harm in it.

What do you mean? I've known that for quite some time now.

Also consider that it would take some time to re-write iTunes to use the resources provided by the operating system and that it does a lot of custom drawing, notably in the store, there's some reason not to. Add to that the need to support Windows and older versions of Mac OS X which don't provide the same UI elements that 10.6 does it begins to make even less sense if cross-platfrom UI consistency is a primary goal.

That still doesn't really explain the need for a custom GUI that differs from default Aqua. Things like scroll bars, checkboxes etc. remained largely unchanged since Mac OS X' initial version.

Eventually I see Apple adopting a more native appearance on Windows, like they did with Safari, and dropping Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger support.

Edited July 28, 2009 by .Neo

[the evn show]

What do you mean? I've known that for quite some time now.

Whether or not images for iTunes are loaded from within the bundle or from without - you wouldn't notice a difference.

That still doesn't really explain the need for a custom GUI that differs from default Aqua. Things like scroll bars, checkboxes etc. remained largely unchanged since Mac OS X' initial version.

Apple doesn't have any major commitment to the default widgets. Take a list of all the software they ship apart from OS X and you'll see the majority doesn't use bog-standard widgets.

Bolt on Apple's apparent desire to have iTunes stand-out from the crowd and I think this will be the case for some time to come. Apple seems to ship new versions of iTunes roughly once a year. The current version is coming up on 10-months old and 10.6 is due to ship in 2 months.

My money is on no significant platform changes (ie: 64-bit re-write using Cocoa, dropping PowerPC support, dropping support for Windows 5 products) until the version after next at the earliest.

Eventually I see Apple adopting a more native appearance on Windows, like they did with Safari, and dropping Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger support.

I think Apple puts too much stock in the brand-image of iTunes to make a sweeping change to native UI. Changes will be slow & gradual spanning years. I wouldn't be surprised to see them continue the whole custom UI thing they've been doing for 10 years.

I also think there's some unwritten law that media players must not use standard controls under any circumstances. Has any major media player ever used them? ;

[.Neo]

Whether or not images for iTunes are loaded from within the bundle or from without - you wouldn't notice a difference.

If all images and resources were exactly copied, unfortunately that is not the case today. Of course this is a choice Apple made rather than a technical limitation.

Bolt on Apple's apparent desire to have iTunes stand-out from the crowd and I think this will be the case for some time to come. Apple seems to ship new versions of iTunes roughly once a year. The current version is coming up on 10-months old and 10.6 is due to ship in 2 months.

My money is on no significant platform changes (ie: 64-bit re-write using Cocoa, dropping PowerPC support, dropping support for Windows 5 products) until the version after next at the earliest.

iTunes has always been an indication of what was about to happen to Aqua in the next mayor Mac OS X version. Like a public testing ground for interfaces. Back in the Jaguar days iTunes suddenly traded its Aqua-blob buttons for the flat plastic ones: Panther applied this system-wide. On Tiger we saw the appearance of the dark unified toolbar style (multiple revisions and button types) later adopted by Leopard. The only thing so far that doesn't seem to make it system-wide are those matte Aqua replacements (scroll bars, checkboxes etc.). We haven't really seen this before, at least not to this extent.

It remains to be seen what changes Snow Leopard will bring once it hits GM and what iTunes 9 will be like. If iTunes 8 is still around once Snow Leopard is completed and the new iPods have been released, the only interface tweaks we'll see are probably the min/max/close widgets.

I also think there's some unwritten law that media players must not use standard controls under any circumstances. Has any major media player ever used them? ;

iTunes and QuickTime more or less faded in quite nicely with Mac OS X' default look up until Tiger (for iTunes) and Snow Leopard (for QuickTime). On Windows that's a totally different story. But then again there is no such thing as consistency in Microsoft Land. ;)

The only thing that strikes me as odd is that the matte Aqua replacements are starting to make it to more and more Apple applications, just not Mac OS X itself.

Edited July 28, 2009 by .Neo

[Quillz]

Their will be some significant visual changes with Snow Leopard, its just we haven't seen any of them yet ;)

And how do you know this?

[Rudy]

And how do you know this?

His uncle knows Steve Jobs ;)

[Xero]

There won't be any significant changes to Snow Leopard's GUI. Anyone who thinks otherwise is missing the point of Snow Leopard entirely. It's meant to be Leopard just refined and polished. So its GUI is polished, not changed. Anyone using it knows many of the GUI has been polished ever so slightly, from centering the finder arrows, to placing the buttons equally apart, making aqua a little brighter, smoother. 10.7 is more likely to have more drastic changes. Snow Leopard won't. If you think it will, you will be let down.

[.Neo]

Both the Dock and QuickTime are showing some big changes. They might show up in other areas as well.

[Binary]

There won't be any significant changes to Snow Leopard's GUI. Anyone who thinks otherwise is missing the point of Snow Leopard entirely. It's meant to be Leopard just refined and polished. So its GUI is polished, not changed. Anyone using it knows many of the GUI has been polished ever so slightly, from centering the finder arrows, to placing the buttons equally apart, making aqua a little brighter, smoother. 10.7 is more likely to have more drastic changes. Snow Leopard won't. If you think it will, you will be let down.

I'd call Black menus/New Quicktime graphics/controls significant GUI changes.

I could see them springing a new theme, maybe not new UI elements or a redesign throughout the OS, but unifying the GUI to a darker tone could happen yet.

They need to do something, these different GUI elements scattered throughout the OS is getting really aggravating. Perhaps resolution independence will shimmy it's way in, as these dark simple gradients could easily be vectorized.

[Simon Veteran]

I'd say they have a month or less to wrap up development and get the GM to packagers. And at that point we'd probably end up with a late September release.

So really... there won't be any *massive* changes to how the OS looks, and I doubt even resolution independence will come on by default.

[Binary]

I'd say they have a month or less to wrap up development and get the GM to packagers. And at that point we'd probably end up with a late September release.

So really... there won't be any *massive* changes to how the OS looks, and I doubt even resolution independence will come on by default.

Well visual changes have happened in as little as just over a week ago.

Apple's running a little late with the new seed (was averaging once a week).

Perhaps there are some surprises in store....

[.Neo]

I'd say they have a month or less to wrap up development and get the GM to packagers. And at that point we'd probably end up with a late September release.

So really... there won't be any *massive* changes to how the OS looks, and I doubt even resolution independence will come on by default.

These changes came in relatively late as well. They might have the entire package of files waiting in their lab waiting to be implemented in a public build. In Tiger they didn't settle on the Menu Bar appearance until the few very last builds, with Leopard same thing applied to the 2D Dock and Menu Bar transparency.

Personally I'm not expecting a whole theme change at this stage either, but like I said some of the redesigned elements seen in the Dock and QuickTime X might make it into other areas as well.

[Simon Veteran]

Yeah, some bits in their applications could happen. But universal window chromes will stay the same, because I imagine many developers have Snow Leopard-ready software designed and ready to go based on the current feel of the OS.

[Binary]

Yeah, some bits in their applications could happen. But universal window chromes will stay the same, because I imagine many developers have Snow Leopard-ready software designed and ready to go based on the current feel of the OS.

I agree that the main toolbar and window elements will stay the same, but elements such as scrollbars, buttons, and system wide menu changes could appear - as they don't really affect the overall look of a program.

The current mesh of icons/buttons on toolbars would cause icons to look extremely bright/contrasty on a glossy black background. And you can't really go asking dev's to change their icons to glyphs in just a few weeks to release.

EDIT: Well you could, as they have made devs port over their code several times in the past :D

Edited August 6, 2009 by Binary

[Xero]

I still gotta disagree with you Binary. While the changes are definitely noticeable they are limited to their respective applications. Quicktime X is a new application. New icon, new interface. While they are significant its changes aren't seen anywhere else. The only other app to get a facelift is the dock, the black menus match Stack's Grid view and 2D dock perfectly. Something that should have been done in the first place. However you don't see them changing the menubar's menus or the standard CTRL+Click menus because it doesn't tie in with anything.

I consider significant changes something that is system wide, across all apps. So far we haven't had that. Sure a few minor tweaks here and there but nothing compared to the Dock/Quicktime changes. I stand by my comment before with no major changes happening in this version. 10.7 is another story. Think about what Snow Leopard is, it's not an overhaul, its a second edition if anything. Apple doesn't want it to look drastically different, they want it to look the same, just more polished. 10.7 they will need to make more drastic changes to warrant the upgrade as Snow Leopard is easily the best version of OS X to ship.

I will say though, the mix of bright and dark elements is a little odd, but I don't see them switching to a dark interface as much as I'd love one. Perhaps a separate theme but Apple isn't the type to offer a variety of themes. I can see them using the dark elements to separate huds/menus/controls from the main interface, with the brighter window. This way you can distinguish one from the the other quickly and easily. The day we can theme it, I'll make a lovely black glass theme for everyone to enjoy ;) Until then we're stuck with Aqua or whatever you want to call it at this point.

[JoHideo]

How can I boot up in 32 bit mode? I need to use Parallels, but it doesnt seem to work in 64 bit. Can I pick between 32 and 64 during the boot process?

[thefarewellnote]

How can I boot up in 32 bit mode? I need to use Parallels, but it doesnt seem to work in 64 bit. Can I pick between 32 and 64 during the boot process?

Use VMWare Fusion - it works just fine :) And I don't think there is an option to boot in 32

[PyX]

Use VMWare Fusion - it works just fine :) And I don't think there is an option to boot in 32

Same. Parallels developers might as well release a free update to support Snow Leopard (Parallels 5.0 or 4.1?)

[JoHideo]

Tried the trial, but no go. Same problem with 64 bit. I'm surprised that there's no way to boot in 32 bit mode.

[.Neo]

Well you are running an unsupported system. Stick with Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard until 10.6 Snow Leopard goes GM and applications have been updated.

[thefarewellnote]

Tried the trial, but no go. Same problem with 64 bit. I'm surprised that there's no way to boot in 32 bit mode.

Are you saying that you can't get VMware to work on SL? Mine is running just fine and has been for the longest time.

[JoHideo]

Same. Parallels developers might as well release a free update to support Snow Leopard (Parallels 5.0 or 4.1?)

Are you saying that you can't get VMware to work on SL? Mine is running just fine and has been for the longest time.

Yeah, I just tried it, but it says 64 bit kernel incompatibility. Maybe your SL isn't running in 64 bit?

[PL_ Veteran]

I thought you could hold down the "3" and "2" when booting to force into 32-bit mode. Maybe I dreamt it.

[Dysphoria]

Are there any issues with VirtualBox?

[norseman]

I thought VirtualBox did 32-bit mode only?