Now LIVE on the PC is free..


Recommended Posts

Yea, it does... but unless your the host you shouldn't notice that too much.

Not too dear - always offers around... newegg is selling them for ?25 at the moment

I can afford 5 live subscriptions a day with msummerb> job.

It's not about if you can afford them, it's about that fact the service should be free. I can afford to buy the subscription, I've never said that's the problem.

So, Mr Network Engineer, how is using P2P or not associated with the cost of running the service. Please don't tell me it's the bandwidth cost.

Seeing as this is my day job, Mr Network Engineer suits me just fine. I won't bother boring you with the specifics but P2P networking is the cheapest way to network, MS should not be charging us for using it.

So sick of people complaining about the PS3. Works both ways.

It's ?40, that isn't cheap, and costs more than 'barely nothing'. The service is far from faultless, and uses cheap (free everywhere else that uses it) P2P networking.

XBL should be free.

Such a hypocrite... Always trying to stir up trouble.

Cant bring up any of the 360's advantages in the Sony section though... GAWD

Microsoft are willing to pump millions into their network... and it shows.

The problem with XBL in PC is not related with the cost but the act himself.

For XBL there are three kind of people:.

a ) people that owns a xbox360 so they don't care about xbl for pc.

b ) people that don't want to spend money on a xbox360, so they also (usually) don't want to spend money in a subscription.

c ) a rare case where a person want to play a xbl game but don't want to spend on a xbox360 and he's willing to pay for a subscription.

Such a hypocrite... Always trying to stir up trouble.

Cant bring up any of the 360's advantages in the Sony section though... GAWD

Microsoft are willing to pump millions into their network... and it shows.

As I own both consoles, and pay to use them I feel I have every right to voice my opinion. I'm not knocking the 360 in the slightest here, and if you read my posts you would see that.

Yea, it does... but unless your the host you shouldn't notice that too much.

Not too dear - always offers around... newegg is selling them for ?25 at the moment

I can afford 5 live subscriptions a day with msummerb> job.

So wait? When you download something from Xbox Live its distributed using P2P, I thought they were using something similar to Akamais Content Delivery Network (Maybe even Akamais CDN)??

I knew the fact that playing games was Player hosting/connecting (P2P)

As I own both consoles, and pay to use them I feel I have every right to voice my opinion. I'm not knocking the 360 in the slightest here, and if you read my posts you would see that.

You may own both but its obvious which one you favour... It stands out in every post you make.

So wait? When you download something from Xbox Live its distributed using P2P, I thought they were using something similar to Akamais Content Delivery Network (Maybe even Akamais CDN)??

I knew the fact that playing games was Player hosting/connecting (P2P)

No, Dedicated servers for online content. Thats why we get very good speed.

As Sethos already pointed out above its not really a P2P service but rather a client - server one where one of the players acts as the server.

So wait? When you download something from Xbox Live its distributed using P2P, I thought they were using something similar to Akamais Content Delivery Network (Maybe even Akamais CDN)??

I knew the fact that playing games was Player hosting/connecting (P2P)

God no, downloads are served by Microsoft - It's hosting servers they are referring to as "P2P" even though it's Client-server.

That was my point!

Downloads from them arent P2P and thus do cost them..

Yea, it costs them... but people want to ignore that fact and just get the online games for free.

They also have a service like www.cachefly.com which creates copies globally which increases speed + reliability

Yea, it costs them... but people want to ignore that fact and just get the online games for free.

They also have a service like www.cachefly.com which creates copies globally which increases speed + reliability

I like being able to rent movies for cheaper than at the rental store... But it doesnt come free for Microsoft, they have to license/host that movie - The yearly fee is not bad and the fact that games/movies are cheap on the marketplace means you cant really complain.

Read an article some time ago, touching the point of the video store where they suggested Microsoft would implement P2P, they could save cost of hosting and even offer cheaper movies - Now that would be a welcome addition of P2P (Y)

But just to add some negativity, roll out video rental in Europe now god dammit :angry:

There are different systems working on live, all the content is hosted on MS servers so it's NOT P2P. Multiplayer games (except for MMOs) pick one player as the host (server) and everyone else as the guest (client). This is also not p2p. I'm sure p2p protocols are used somewhere but not "everywhere" It's not like the demos or other stuff I've downloaded from XBL is then being shared to whoever else wants to download it as well. In this sense it's not a true P2P network at all. And this is also a simple fact.

Hey, guys! Unless you are all too hard-headed to notice, P2P or not, the Microsoft LIVE network has suffered MUCH less problems than Wii and PSN. Microsoft is not stupid, they came out with the most effective (and cost effective) way for online gaming with the release of thier FIRST console, while Sony and Nintendo still cannot seem to find a better way to improve the lag besides upgrading bandwidth, and thus costing them more money. Let's face it, Microsoft had the wits to outsmart Sony and Nintendo, they suffer no financial losses from providing thier service, instead they MAKE money off of it.

Don't tell me this is abusing, most people don't mind being the connection host. Infact, back in the Halo 2 days, people ould try to become the connection host because of the advantages it brings. And even then, most people that get connection host have fiber optic or cable and have much much more bandwidth than they need. So it's not hurting the public at all, it's making online gaming better.

The point is, Microsoft made a service that conquers most (if not all) lag problems. PSN and Wii were not able to do this and therefore they fall behind, it's not Microsoft's fault, it's thiers for not being able to adapt to a better, more effective method of online play. Face it, Mcrosoft is god ;)

Yes, I am a Microsoft fanboy, but at least I provide backup.

The PSN has very little lag, and has had very few problems. I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it appears to be wrong.

Yes, XBL is the more established service with the better options (although 2.41 on the PSN has closed the gap) but the PSN has none of the problems you mention.

Hey, guys! Unless you are all too hard-headed to notice, P2P or not, the Microsoft LIVE network has suffered MUCH less problems than Wii and PSN. Microsoft is not stupid, they came out with the most effective (and cost effective) way for online gaming with the release of thier FIRST console, while Sony and Nintendo still cannot seem to find a better way to improve the lag besides upgrading bandwidth, and thus costing them more money. Let's face it, Microsoft had the wits to outsmart Sony and Nintendo, they suffer no financial losses from providing thier service, instead they MAKE money off of it.

Don't tell me this is abusing, most people don't mind being the connection host. Infact, back in the Halo 2 days, people ould try to become the connection host because of the advantages it brings. And even then, most people that get connection host have fiber optic or cable and have much much more bandwidth than they need. So it's not hurting the public at all, it's making online gaming better.

The point is, Microsoft made a service that conquers most (if not all) lag problems. PSN and Wii were not able to do this and therefore they fall behind, it's not Microsoft's fault, it's thiers for not being able to adapt to a better, more effective method of online play. Face it, Mcrosoft is god ;)

Yes, I am a Microsoft fanboy, but at least I provide backup.

I like this guy :laugh:

@ pop, Sony may have closed the gap with 2.41, but MS just made an even bigger gap with the announcements at E3 :yes: Back to where we were then :p

The announcements are not live yet, so I will wait for them to be released before passing judgement.

I do like the look of the new dashboard, and some of the features seem nice but I'm not sure it really pushes the service that much further, certainly doesn't give it the gap it had pre 2.41

Well that's the difference in our opinions. There is no denying though it has created a huge gap again. All the features in 2.41 should have been there from the beginning and none of them were that great to begin with. This is what I said all along that MS will be hard at work in the background and not standing still while Sony play catch up. It's gonna be a common story this generation.

Well that's the difference in our opinions. There is no denying though it has created a huge gap again. All the features in 2.41 should have been there from the beginning and none of them were that great to begin with. This is what I said all along that MS will be hard at work in the background and not standing still while Sony play catch up. It's gonna be a common story this generation.

I agree, with MS being first onto the shelf other consoles will play catch up. Not a bad thing though really. All works to our advantage in the end (Y)

Well that's the difference in our opinions. There is no denying though it has created a huge gap again. All the features in 2.41 should have been there from the beginning and none of them were that great to begin with. This is what I said all along that MS will be hard at work in the background and not standing still while Sony play catch up. It's gonna be a common story this generation.

Like i said before. v2.41 = v1.0

Next time Sony should get the services together before they release their console.

Like i said before. v2.41 = v1.0

Next time Sony should get the services together before they release their console.

Lets not be too hard on Sony, at least they release it. Better late than never, as the saying goes?

Scirwode

The PSN has very little lag, and has had very few problems.

:blink:

Anyhow, you bought this argument yourself with the whole PS3 thing! This is about Xbox Live for starters! Moving on.

As many people have said, Xbox Live won't be free, it may get cheaper in future but who knows. Microsoft don't charge much as it currently is. End of the day, people should not subscribe if they feel it is not worthy of their money! GFW is no where near on the same scale as Xbox Live either. More games and content means more power required to make sure that the service is efficient for users.

In my opinion, I feel that the fee for Xbox Live is justified and worth it.

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Posts

    • Why you need to take back control of your synced passwords and how to go about doing that by Paul Hill Credit: Pixabay Last month, when Google decided to introduce daily and weekly caps for Gemini, it reignited an anxiety of mine, that you can’t really depend on service providers to maintain features forever, and it got me looking into free software (as in freedom) in other areas too. One app I quickly came across was KeePassXC on desktop and KeePassDX on Android as an alternative to password manager lock-in within the Chrome or Firefox ecosystems. I personally like to switch around with browsers, and using either password manager is inconvenient, so something like KeePassXC was interesting to me. The main issue with it now is syncing; I was not sure how to do that. After a bit of research, I came across Syncthing, a tool I was vaguely familiar with but had never used because it seemed complicated. However, I was completely wrong, and honestly, I think everyone should use it if they use multiple devices. It essentially lets you share folders peer to peer across all of your devices, no cloud services that you don’t control necessary! And it was fairly simple to set up, if not a bit clunky. Since setting it up, I’ve also started using Syncthing to back up other apps too, so don’t think it’s limited to just saving password databases. You can use it for pretty much anything you use Dropbox or Google Drive for. Before continuing to talk about those apps a bit more, let’s walk back a bit and talk about browser sync. Ever since the late 2000s and early 2010s, really, since we have been using smartphones, browser sync has been a necessity of life. I don’t know about you, but I have hundreds of passwords saved. For the most part, they’re all unique, so I don’t remember them and rely on software to manage them for me. Until recently, I’ve relied on password managers in Chrome and Firefox, but what I always found annoying was that it can be hard to transfer them between browsers. Sure, on Windows it is simple enough, but on Linux, exporting bookmarks has been temperamental. It works OK nowadays, but not too long ago, Chrome required you to enable exporting passwords in chrome://flags. The situation is even worse on mobile; there is no exporting or importing of passwords of any kind. You literally have to do it on a desktop, which is incredibly annoying in our mobile-first world. Sync also lets us take out bookmarks, history, tabs, and autofill data easily. To enable sync, it’s just a matter of signing into the browser once, and it handles the rest. It’s nice and easy. Obviously, all this has some issues, including those I’ve outlined above about it being hard to transfer data between browsers, but also things such as account suspension, lost account passwords, and other lock-in mechanisms, such as passkeys, being tied to a specific browser. On a sidenote, I have just removed all of my passkeys because they can make it harder to move browsers. I think the biggest threat to your synced passwords, especially if doing this with Google, is having your account suspended. I don’t ever expect mine to be suspended, but you do hear horror stories on Reddit where people lose access to their Google accounts. Imagine if you have hundreds of passwords, then suddenly lose access to them because Google froze your account, what would you do? So yes, it can be nice to use these syncing services for their convenience, but they also have risks. You may have seen me going on about free software quite a bit in my editorials. It’s essentially a concept championed by the Free Software Foundation. It’s software under particular licenses that grant you four freedoms: run the program for any purpose (0), study and change the source code (1), redistribute copies to others (2), and the freedom to distribute modified copies to others (3). For example, if there is an app I use and one day it gets abandoned by the developer, I can keep running it or even clone the software and continue developing it. Look at the myriad of cool services Google has run over the years before killing them. You can’t take the source code for those because they are proprietary, for the most part. Both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so I get the freedoms listed above. In my use case where I’m syncing a database full of my passwords, I also get proper ownership over my data, there is no losing access to the database due to a frozen account, I can access the code of the tools I’m using, and I can get support from real people online if I run into issues, rather than having to consult a vague help page from an opaque company. With the KeePassXC password manager, you create a .kdbx file, which is what will be synced between devices. KeePassXC has cross-platform apps and also has browser extensions so that the browser can fetch passwords from the database once it is unlocked. Meanwhile, Syncthing is a peer-to-peer file sync tool where you can select folders to sync between your devices. Just pop files in the folders you choose, and then they will be available across your other devices whenever they come online. Syncthing is resilient as it works over both LAN and the internet and only ever sends content between your devices, never to a third-party server somewhere else. By combining these two pieces of software, you can essentially replicate the browser sync functionality. I have had a weird, conflicting issue where a new file is appearing, but it doesn’t seem to be impacting my main password database, which is updating between devices just fine. If you want to get a setup similar to what I have, you will need to go here to download KeePassXC for your computer. Once you have that, you will need to download your passwords from your web browser to a CSV file. In Chrome, you can type chrome://password-manager/settings into the URL bar, and you should see an option to download your passwords under Export Passwords. This will give you the CSV file you need for importing into KeePassXC. If you use a different browser, just use a search engine and type “browser-name export passwords” and muddle along. In KeePassXC, you’ll want to press Import File from the home screen, select the CSV file, and create a new database from it. On one of the screens of the wizard, there will be a Title field with a drop-down selected to none. Change this to Title and continue. You’ll select a name for the database, the encryption level (the defaults are fine), and then you will pick a password. I would choose four unrelated words that are easy for you to remember, as you’ll be typing them fairly often to access your passwords. When you have all your passwords in your new database, you will want to set up the browser extension so that your browser can fetch passwords from KeePassXC. Rather than explain how to do that here, refer to KeePassXC’s guide on how to set it up properly. Once you’ve got that set up, you want to install KeePassDX on Android. You can grab it on the F-Droid store and the Google Play Store. For iPhone users, there are other .kdbx-supporting apps, but I haven’t tried any of them, so have a look around and use what suits you. Once you have that done, you will want to install Syncthing on your computer and find a third-party app for your mobile device. On Android, I use an app called BasicSync; there are also options for iOS, but again, I’ve not tried these. Once you’ve got SyncThing, you’ll want to set it up and connect all of your devices together and share a folder between your gadgets. PCWorld has a good tutorial on setting up a synchronized file between your devices using SyncThing. Once you’ve set it up, congrats, you’ll never have to touch that stuff again except for adding or removing devices. I’ll be honest, I didn’t particularly like setting up Syncthing. It didn’t take me a massive amount of time, but I think I had to check online because I found it a bit confusing. That said, I’ve had it running for several weeks now and never need to touch the Syncthing settings, so that’s very nice. I also mentioned a conflicting file. I’m not sure why this is appearing, but the main .kdbx file seems to be updating and syncing just fine. What’s nice is that both KeePassXC and Syncthing are free software, so they won’t just vanish one day; you can take the code and fork the project or use a range of alternative implementations that others have made. It’s also nice that it works over LAN, so even if your ISP is having problems, your passwords will still sync. One area where you will want to be a bit more careful with this setup is if you only have one device. I am OK because I have a computer and two phones, all synced up. If you just have one device, you will probably want to store a backup of your .kdbx file somewhere else. Obviously, you’ll also want to remember your password really well, too. If you get locked out, it's game over. Overall, if you want to take back control of your computing from big tech, taking control of your passwords is an important part of this. You don’t need to immediately clear out your browser’s password manager; try running KeePassXC and the password manager concurrently for a while to see if you run into any problems. If you do try this out, let us know some other creative ways to use Syncthing. I haven’t really come up with a solution about what to do with my bookmarks, for example.
    • If the price was a dollar, someone would complain "Why isn't it free?" If it was free, someone would complain they weren't being paid to play it.
    • That lens of history will burn if you hold it at the right angle... Warn users too late: Shame, Microsoft! That extremely minor update to an obscure Control Panel widget required 2 years of warning. Warn users too early: Shame, Microsoft! We've got better things to do. Pipeline and process be damned, we'll just always be disappointed, eh?
    • Microsoft Paint used to be my favorite Windows app as a kid, and it's still pretty good by Usama Jawad I have been using Windows since the early 2000s, when I was around 10 years old or so. I vaguely remember playing around with Windows 98 and Windows 2000, but that may have been on school PCs which had old operating systems installed. My main OS on the home PC, and the one I recall spending most time with, was Windows XP. At that time, I used the home PC to create Word and PowerPoint documents for school, but a lot of the time, I simply used it to play games. My dad would bring game discs which we would try and install on the PC, sometimes unsuccessfully, and sometimes, we would rely on flash games in the browser, like Bubble Trouble on Miniclip. However, the problem with the latter approach was the internet speed. On a good day, our dial-up internet would offer us speeds of 56 kbps, but on most days, it was closer to 33 kbps. This did not facilitate online gaming as I would often have to wait minutes for a game to load or "draw" on the screen, and trying to download pirated games wasn't simple either. I remember getting tired of waiting for online games to load and just downloading simulator games from the Big Fish Games website instead, only to be disappointed after finding out that I was just being given access to trial versions of the title, and I needed to fork out money to pay for the full version. All of this is to say that it wasn't very easy to find entertainment options on the home PC when I was a kid, due to a number of reasons, mostly outside of my control. This situation pushed me towards a rather unconventional ally: Microsoft Paint. Whenever the internet wasn't working as good as I expected, I would simply spin up Paint and draw complete rubbish on the canvas. Of course, that wasn't always the intention, but it usually happened when I messed up drawing a straight line or something, and then I would give up on that particular piece and simply draw a random collection of objects. Microsoft Paint was extremely accessible and easy to use. Even if you weren't an artist, you could quickly understand the tools at your disposal and how to leverage them on a canvas. The absolute breadth on offer ensured that each painting was truly unique, as you could utilize various combinations of tools like the pencil, paint, spray paint, and more to truly personalize your creation. Since I wasn't particularly good at drawing both on digital screen or a physical screen, I remember that my main style of art would be to insert a bunch of randomly intersecting lines and then fill them with random colors through the paint can. I have trying to replicate that art style in the latest version of Paint below, and as you can see, it's truly Pablo Picasso-esque. The human imagination truly knows no bounds Microsoft Paint kept me occupied for hours and was my best friend when video games on the home PC were inaccessible for one reason or the other. There was no academic or professional reason for which I would need to use Paint, but I still loved using it in my personal time, even if what I created wasn't worth being shown to anyone. It was simply fun. Fast-forward to today, and the situation is mostly the same. Now that I am almost 29 years old, and I still have no reason to use Microsoft Paint in a professional capacity. In fact, I don't even use it in a personal capacity, except to dabble with it from time to time, just to see if core functionalities are still intact. And I'm happy to say that I think Microsoft Paint still offers the same accessibility and inviting experience that it did to me a couple of decades ago, even though its UX has been refreshed and it's been integrated with Copilot features. Interestingly, things could have been a lot different, had Microsoft had its way. Microsoft Paint was marked for deprecation with the Windows 10 Fall Creators Update in 2017, and even began displaying a product retirement alert, urging customers to shift to Paint 3D instead. Fortunately, after consumer backlash, Microsoft reversed course on this decision, and Paint continues to be a native app inside Windows installations that can also be updated quite frequently through the Microsoft Store. Instead, Paint 3D ended up on the chopping block, which is for the better, I think. I have intermittently played around with Microsoft's refreshed Paint experience in the past few years, and I do think it has received worthwhile upgrades. the UI and the UX has been modernized while retaining core functionality, and the app is still fairly easy to use. It doesn't meet any of my use-cases, but I've never really had any use-cases ever, as described previously. Of course, the elephant in the room is the Copilot integration. Personally, I believe that this is one place where Copilot does make sense, environmental concerns aside. I know that a lot of creatives use AI to generate images, and while some may be using professional alternatives, Paint still offers a decent casual experience, with the power of Copilot. Of course, you do need to have a valid Microsoft 365 Copilot license and available credits to use it, but even if you don't, you still get the big Copilot button in the toolbar, unfortunately. All in all, I am glad that Microsoft Paint continues to be a native feature in Windows 11, and a piece of software that has evolved to meet modern needs without cutting off its own roots. It's just an iconic piece of Windows history that was an essential part of my childhood, and while I don't use it anymore, I'm just glad it is still there.
    • 2TB WD_Black SN7100 PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD drops to its lowest price in over three months by Fiza Ali Amazon is currently offering the 2TB WD_Black SN7100 internal solid-state drive at its lowest price in over three months, so you may want to check it out, if you have been considering a storage upgrade, before the deal dries up (purchase link is toward the end of the article). Featuring a PCIe Gen 4.0 interface and M.2 2280 form factor, the SN7100 promises to deliver sequential read speeds of up to 7,250MB/s and sequential write speeds reaching 6,900MB/s, offering as much as a 35% improvement in performance compared with the previous generation. It also achieves random read speeds of 1,000,000 IOPS and random write speeds of 1,400,000 IOPS. The drive uses Western Digital’s TLC 3D NAND technology for reliable performance and is further supported by a five-year limited warranty. It also offers strong endurance, rated at up to 1,200TBW, making it suitable for demanding workloads such as gaming, content creation, and high-speed recording. Moreover, its DRAM-less architecture claims to improve power efficiency (the SSD relies on system memory for caching via HMB), while the WD_Black Dashboard software enables users to monitor drive health, install firmware updates, and activate Game Mode for potentially better performance. Finally, it operates within an operating temperature range of 0°C to 85°C, and can withstand storage temperatures from -40°C to 85°C. 2TB WD_Black SN7100 PCIe Gen4 NVMe SSD: $242.96 (Amazon US) Check this deal out if you want a 4TB option. Good to know This Amazon deal is U.S. specific, and not available in other regions unless specified. We only use first-party seller links (at the time of article publishing); ensure that you purchase from a first-party seller link only. Check out Today's Deals on Amazon | or our recent tech deals. Become a Prime member (for Students or SNAP) via Neowin Get Prime Access - Prime for half price (for qualifying Medicaid, EBT, SNAP) Subscribe to Prime Video, Audible Plus, Music Unlimited or Kindle Unlimited via Neowin As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Week One Done
      Supreme Spray LV earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Month Later
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      One Month Later
    • Week One Done
      Genuinetonerink- Dubai earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • One Year In
      hhgygy earned a badge
      One Year In
    • Week One Done
      AMV earned a badge
      Week One Done
  • Popular Contributors

    1. 1
      +primortal
      514
    2. 2
      +Edouard
      163
    3. 3
      PsYcHoKiLLa
      87
    4. 4
      Steven P.
      74
    5. 5
      Michael Scrip
      73
  • Tell a friend

    Love Neowin? Tell a friend!