Working on a speech on homosexuality

[Memphis]

I got the idea of starting a different kind of debate on the subject that tries to be more objective than emotional. I got the idea of spurring a discussion on the aspects of this topic while researching information on my speech and reading Neowin news section. This subject is usually like beating a dead horse and nobody seems capable of approaching the subject with just the hard facts and coming to a conclusion that is based COMPLETELY on current available knowledge. The speech I am doing for speech class will not be taking the current politics such as what is going on in California in discussion. Ive came up with a few talking points so far.

The first and foremost being that if we decide to discuss gay marriage as an unnatural act and therefor wrong, then we must also say that sex between a man and a women that has unnatural elements (oral, anal) are also wrong by the same principle. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot say one type of unnatural sexual relationship is OK but another is. Anyone who disagrees with the above is just prejudice.The next point I was wanting to incorporate into my speech was a historical look at the history of gays. one thing I have came up with while doing this is that although gays have always existed throughout history, a portion of the modern gay community is most likely not gay or at the minimum role playing a part almost like an actor. Throughout history, gays did not act in a quite odd feminine way, if anything it was the opposite. This I think is a big point to hit on as their are a number of people to whom are a disgrace to their cause by taking on this feminine role playing. All this does is add fuel to the fire that being gay in its current form, is just a widespread CHOICE.

The last point I have came up with so far is that, contrary to popular belief anyone who believes a person is born gay does so by faith and not fact. Likewise, the same goes to people who believe that people are gay by choice are also not backed up by any concrete evidence. On a side note, Everyone brings up the Levay study when I say this, yet his study has never been replicated, and Levay entered with the study hoping to find that people were born gay (self admitted as he is a homosexual himself). On top of these things, their is more evidence to say that what you do shapes the size of brain areas instead of the brain areas size shapes personality. The thing is we do not know if you are born gay or not and anyone who conjectures outside of solid research is purely speculating.

If it is proven that you are born gay, then there is probably a high chance (in my opinion) that pedophiles will also be found to be born into their condition. The next question will be do they need treatment (treat it as a disease) or acceptance? IF pedophiles follow on the same trend then we must also recognize that they are suffering from a uncontrollable disease and jail time is unnecessary and that they must be treated as any other sick patient. Someone suffering form a disease that caused their actions will also be found incompetent to stand trial. How can you convict someone for doing something that they cannot control? Now, on the other hand, if it is found to be a choice, do they deserve rights at all? or should it be up to the current morals and ethics of the society they live in to decide if they are accepted are not? Anyways, currently it is a mass of jumbled ideas I want to approach the speech with, any ideas or input would definitely be appreciated. Please do not turn this thread into a place to argue gay rights (I am sure it will happen on some scale regardless).

Edited December 1, 2008 by sidroc

[_bobcat_ Veteran]

........

Throughout history, gays did not act in a quite odd feminine way, if anything it was the opposite. This I think is a big point to hit on as their are a number of people to whom are a disgrace to their cause by taking on this feminine role playing. All this does is add fuel to the fire that being gay in its current form, is just a widespread CHOICE.

A lot of gays today do not act in a "quite odd feminine way" (that being a stereotype and rather judgemental thing of you to say when you are trying to be objective).

I know a guy who is naturally 'camp', it's just the way he is and he's been that way since we were eight year olds. He'd much rather be more masculine in order to fit in better. It is definately not an act.

I know another guy who I found out is gay today and I had no idea ... he's just another regular guy who also happens to like men, but doesn't act in any "odd feminine way" nor does he shout about it. I say "found out" as if it's his dirty secret - I just happened to see it on his Facebook profile.

With all the people I know who I also know are gay - none of them try to show off about it. It's just part of who they are, like owning an Apple Macintosh computer or being a CS student or liking fish and chips better than curry or whatever. It's just not that big of a deal.

I'm not saying that there aren't any gays who make a huge deal out of it, let being gay define their entire existence and constantly get in other people's faces about it but I think that it's unfair to assume that anyone who is feminine is acting it and lump them in with this negative stereotype. It's also unfair to forget all the badly behaved straight people..if your speech excuses people for persecuting homosexuals because of the minority of them who always cause a scene... that is not a good approach in my opinion. People need to start realising that they are surrounded by gay people, but they don't know it, because gay != freak.

I am feminine in many ways, masculine in others, I don't act that. I'm sure you are not acting more feminine or masculine are you? We just behave and speak and walk in the way that feels natural and there is very little we can do to change that; being gay wouldn't give you some magic power over it. A lot of how we behave is influenced by how we are brought up of course (Google socialisation), but I personally feel a lot of your mannerisms, likes and dislikes are fairly innate - or at least, not easy to control or choose.

You don't mention lesbians either. Why is this? Why the focus on male homosexuals? There is a stereotype of lesbians being more masculine - do you think that this is an act?

What about straight people who are more feminine or masculine than they "should" be for their gender? I mean, I'm a girl who likes CS, maths, physics, cars .. I get argumentative and I'm terribly competitive .. these are apparently male things. Do you think I'm putting on an act and have a secret love of knitting? And why would I do so?

If it is proven that you are born gay, then there is probably a high chance (in my opinion) that pedophiles will also be found to be born into their condition. The next question will be do they need treatment (treat it as a disease) or acceptance? IF pedophiles follow on the same trend then we must also recognize that they are suffering from a uncontrollable disease and jail time is unnecessary and that they must be treated as any other sick patient. Someone suffering form a disease that caused their actions will also be found incompetent to stand trial. How can you convict someone for doing something that they cannot control? Now, on the other hand, if it is found to be a choice, do they deserve rights at all? or should it be up to the current morals and ethics of the society they live in to decide if they are accepted are not? Anyways, currently it is a mass of jumbled ideas I want to approach the speech with, any ideas or input would definitely be appreciated. Please do not turn this thread into a place to argue gay rights (I am sure it will happen on some scale regardless).

The thing about pedophiles is that they take advantage of and abuse vulnerable young people who don't understand what is happening to them, can't stop it from happening and don't want it to happen.

I think it's highly likely they are born that way but because of the way in which they harm innocent young people, then of course they should be treated and/or locked up.

Of course they might not be able to control the fact they want to have sex with kiddies, but they can control whether they give in to it or not. Just like when you walk down the street, see someone attractive, and don't just pounce on them.

Gay people do not prey on innocent, naive and vulnerable people any more than straight people do.

[jwjw1]

The thing about pedophiles is that they take advantage of and abuse vulnerable young people who don't understand what is happening to them, can't stop it from happening and don't want it to happen.

I think it's highly likely they are born that way but because of the way in which they harm innocent young people, then of course they should be treated and/or locked up.

Of course they might not be able to control the fact they want to have sex with kiddies, but they can control whether they give in to it or not. Just like when you walk down the street, see someone attractive, and don't just pounce on them.

Gay people do not prey on innocent, naive and vulnerable people any more than straight people do.

My opinion is that pedophiles are NOT born that way...I believe we all develop some sort of 'for a lack of better word' perversion...rather it be shoes,toes,feet,stockings,toys,clothes,food..and just about anything else you want to include with a obsession or off color view/fantasy. It's just that the perversion of older men/women preying on children is not acceptable in society (at least most societies).

I'm also more favorable that Gay/Lesbian are birth related due to genetics or an unbalance of chromosomes and that the attraction to the opposite sex is not something learned/taught. I also think Gays/Lesbians have an attraction for both sex's..and that they later do make a choice. A choice that I believe they have a right too,just like any other human being. Gays and Lesbian are more acceptable to live with than alot of other 'Groups,Religions' that push their views and disrupt society with their arrogance and stupidity.

Edited December 1, 2008 by jwjw1

[Memphis]

A lot of gays today do not act in a "quite odd feminine way" (that being a stereotype and rather judgemental thing of you to say when you are trying to be objective).

I know a guy who is naturally 'camp', it's just the way he is and he's been that way since we were eight year olds. He'd much rather be more masculine in order to fit in better. It is definately not an act.

I know another guy who I found out is gay today and I had no idea ... he's just another regular guy who also happens to like men, but doesn't act in any "odd feminine way" nor does he shout about it. I say "found out" as if it's his dirty secret - I just happened to see it on his Facebook profile.

With all the people I know who I also know are gay - none of them try to show off about it. It's just part of who they are, like owning an Apple Macintosh computer or being a CS student or liking fish and chips better than curry or whatever. It's just not that big of a deal.

I'm not saying that there aren't any gays who make a huge deal out of it, let being gay define their entire existence and constantly get in other people's faces about it but I think that it's unfair to assume that anyone who is feminine is acting it and lump them in with this negative stereotype. It's also unfair to forget all the badly behaved straight people..if your speech excuses people for persecuting homosexuals because of the minority of them who always cause a scene... that is not a good approach in my opinion. People need to start realising that they are surrounded by gay people, but they don't know it, because gay != freak.

I am feminine in many ways, masculine in others, I don't act that. I'm sure you are not acting more feminine or masculine are you? We just behave and speak and walk in the way that feels natural and there is very little we can do to change that; being gay wouldn't give you some magic power over it. A lot of how we behave is influenced by how we are brought up of course (Google socialisation), but I personally feel a lot of your mannerisms, likes and dislikes are fairly innate - or at least, not easy to control or choose.

Eh, sorry if it wasn't more clear, I was actually speaking in defense of homosexuals their. Most gays do not act in a feminine way, however, their is a minority that do act very feminine that are a disgrace to the gay community (in my opinion) whether its for attention, or them thinking that's how a homosexual should act is probably situational. The problem is, if you break the norm on historically how gays act, then it gives a punchline for anti gay activists to say "see, gays seem to act differently every century, how is that hardwired?". My boss at work is gay and is definitely no overly feminine weirdo, if anything he seems completely normal and you would never guess he was gay. All I am pointing out is the vocal minority of gays are adding fuel to the fire of the anti gay community. I would say a good example is that leave Britney alone guy, although he might be more of grabbing for attention than anything else.

You don't mention lesbians either. Why is this? Why the focus on male homosexuals? There is a stereotype of lesbians being more masculine - do you think that this is an act?

Eh, I thought I covered lesbians when I discussed unnatural sex. I use the term gay broadly to cover homosexuality as a whole and not just reference men. Although I probably could of added a note about masculine lesbians. I would have to say it is, my facts on this however are backed up from personal experience only. From what I have seen around me is that their are very feminine lesbians or very masculine lesbians, I have noticed that the masculine ones after a few beers are feminine again. On another note, I have seen several gay men become masculine after enough beers.

What about straight people who are more feminine or masculine than they "should" be for their gender? I mean, I'm a girl who likes CS, maths, physics, cars .. I get argumentative and I'm terribly competitive .. these are apparently male things. Do you think I'm putting on an act and have a secret love of knitting? And why would I do so?

I think (will look for a source to confirm or not) that sexual preference, hardwired or not, is different then ones leaning towards being feminine or masculine. Otherwise masculine females that were heterosexual and feminine males that are also heterosexual would most definitely be a lot rarer.

The thing about pedophiles is that they take advantage of and abuse vulnerable young people who don't understand what is happening to them, can't stop it from happening and don't want it to happen.

Yes they do, but mainly by today's standards, Life in most of worlds history would find such behavior normal. In the right time period, you might find them acceptable, maybe normal.

I think it's highly likely they are born that way but because of the way in which they harm innocent young people, then of course they should be treated and/or locked up. Of course they might not be able to control the fact they want to have sex with kiddies, but they can control whether they give in to it or not. Just like when you walk down the street, see someone attractive, and don't just pounce on them.

Agreed, but our outlook on these men would have to change, currently its pitchforks and torches for sexual predators, we would have to start considering them sick, maybe develop medication to mend their habits.

Gay people do not prey on innocent, naive and vulnerable people any more than straight people do.

Agreed, I am making a biological comparison only.

Edited December 1, 2008 by sidroc

[DavidM]

Never mind I got to bent out of shape over the whole gay/pedophile/disease paragraph and will just walk away from this topic.

Edited December 1, 2008 by DavidM

[Memphis]

Who is going to decide what is an unnatural act? The penis fits into the mouth and anus as well as the vagina, the tongue fits into vagina and anus as well. Just because they are not acceptable to some and disliked by others does not make the unnatural.

Reread, I was making a point about how people who say it is wrong because it is unnatural, but practice any kind of a sexual perversion are prejudice at best. Did you read it at all?

Stop watching Will and Grace for you opinions of gays.

I have pointed out that they are the vocal minority, and that most gays are not like this and that this group does not help their cause. Don't make invalid assumptions. You seem to have read the title and came here with fingers ready at the keyboard to support a cause I am not necessarily arguing against. Read the whole thing and then decide to respond next time.

[DavidM]

Disregard all of that my edit speaks for itself.

[revvo]

My opinion is that pedophiles are NOT born that way...I believe we all develop some sort of 'for a lack of better word' perversion...rather it be shoes,toes,feet,stockings,toys,clothes,food..and just about anything else you want to include with a obsession or off color view/fantasy. It's just that the perversion of older men/women preying on children is not acceptable in society (at least most societies).

So you're saying that pedophilia is a fetish?

[Eric Veteran]

How do you intend to give an objective speech when you make statements like "I thought I covered lesbians when I discussed unnatural sex." and "If it is proven that you are born gay, then there is probably a high chance (in my opinion) that pedophiles will also be found to be born into their condition."?

From those statements it appears you already believe homosexuality to be an unnatural perversion and your objectivity is out the window, as they say.

[Memphis]

How do you intend to give an objective speech when you make statements like "I thought I covered lesbians when I discussed unnatural sex." and "If it is proven that you are born gay, then there is probably a high chance (in my opinion) that pedophiles will also be found to be born into their condition."?

From those statements it appears you already believe homosexuality to be an unnatural perversion and your objectivity is out the window, as they say.

the first one was me signifying that I wasn't focusing specifically on male homosexuals, and the second one is from a biological standpoint that says if sexuality is eventually proven to be genetic, or biological in any way, than most likely (I could be wrong), pedophiles would most likely also be born with their sexual preference. Its grim, but it could very well be the case. Is it unnatural to be homosexual? In a biological sense yes, but as I said, it is also unnatural to get a blow job, does that make it wrong? not necessarily. Again, as the other guy, are you not reading what I posted and going off on a defense war?

[MillionVoltss]

This was in the news a few years ago 'Brain tumour causes uncontrollable paedophilia'

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943

[Memphis]

This was in the news a few years ago 'Brain tumour causes uncontrollable paedophilia'

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2943

Very interesting, This is the kind of stuff im looking for for my speech.

[SakuraKira]

You don't mention lesbians either. Why is this? Why the focus on male homosexuals? There is a stereotype of lesbians being more masculine - do you think that this is an act?

What about straight people who are more feminine or masculine than they "should" be for their gender? I mean, I'm a girl who likes CS, maths, physics, cars .. I get argumentative and I'm terribly competitive .. these are apparently male things. Do you think I'm putting on an act and have a secret love of knitting? And why would I do so?

I agree with you there. I don't consider myself very feminine. Actually, it would probably be more convenient if I were a lesbian in that regard, but I am indeed hetero :shrug:.

To the OP: I realize it was just a movie... but did you ever see Snakes on a Plane? There is a male flight attendant on the plane that I thought was gay throughout the whole movie, because he was a bit feminine acting. However at the end when he gets off the plane, he's pounced by his girlfriend who seems quite happy to see him. It was pretty amusing.

An effete man does not a homosexual make.

... Sorry if that was in any way a spoiler for Snakes on a Plane. lol

[shockz]

Very interesting, This is the kind of stuff im looking for for my speech.

Why are you trying to integrate paedophilia into a speech about homosexuals?

[Memphis]

Why are you trying to integrate paedophilia into a speech about homosexuals?

Both are sexual preferences. If it is found that homosexuality is controlled by genetics, or some kind of difference in the brain, then we must reevaluate our opinions, as well as how we treat pedophiles. This goes hand in hand with homosexuality from the biological standpoint of sexuality not being chosen by the individual. For example, if it is found that such individuals cannot control who they are attracted to, do we charge them with a crime? Are they capable of standing trial? On a side note, this debate has already been making rounds on how to treat schizophrenic people. Do you institutionalize, medicate, or lock them up? My speech will probably end up covering sexuality a little more broadly than just homosexuality.

[colealtdelete]

I don't understand how homosexuality relates to pedophilia.

[Darrian]

It doesn't, directly, but the cause could be similar as it's an "unnatural" sexual preference.

[Memphis]

It doesn't, directly, but the cause could be similar as it's an "unnatural" sexual preference.

Exactly, more research needs to be done obviously to decide what the cause of different sexual preference is, but the cause will probably be similar for most sexual preferences. What I am really interested in is for more research articles on the subject of sexuality whether it be homosexual or pedophilia related from a biological standpoint, as well as historical recordings. I think peering at it through biology, as well as history of sexual preference in non Abrahamic religion based cultures (I say this because those religions specifically are against homosexuals so it is hard to study the patterns of being homosexual as many would not have came out of the closet per se in these ethnic groups) is the best way to study the subject objectively. If anyone has any good sources that I could check out that would be nice.

[JohnMarsten]

I think peering at it through biology, as well as history of sexual preference in non Abrahamic religion based cultures (I say this because those religions specifically are against homosexuals

That's quite a statement to make, you have any facts to back up this claim? Islam is an Abrahamic religion and it is strongly against homosexuality, Christianity is also against it as well. I honestly can't think of a religion that is more against homosexuality than Islam and it is an Abrahamic religion. The statement Eastern religions such as Dharmic and Taoic religions are more against homosexuality I don't think can be made. In general most religions are against homosexuality, the fact a few sects of a certain religion allow it does not mean they religion as a whole accepts it just that those groups within that religion do.

[Berserk87]

homosexuality, pedophilia, and brain tumors..

i see this thread going to bad places :rofl:

[Memphis]

That's quite a statement to make, you have any facts to back up this claim? Islam is an Abrahamic religion and it is strongly against homosexuality, Christianity is also against it as well. I honestly can't think of a religion that is more against homosexuality than Islam and it is an Abrahamic religion. The statement Eastern religions such as Dharmic and Taoic religions are more against homosexuality I don't think can be made. In general most religions are against homosexuality, the fact a few sects of a certain religion allow it does not mean they religion as a whole accepts it just that those groups within that religion do.

I was saying that it would be better to study homosexuality in cultures who's religion did not have such strict rules on non heterosexual relationships. From my understanding, the Abrahamic religions are more against homosexuality ?(death penalty in early Judaism and in current Muslim society) than a lot of other religions. I was not inferring that the others were more against it, rather less and to study homosexuality, it would be better to study it in a society that you woudlnt be killed for it as individuals would have been more open to reveal their sexuality.