Digsby has gone to the dark side.

[+Warwagon MVC]

After recently downloading a copy of Digsby at a customers house. I was shocked what I found. I was so shocked I rechecked that I hadn't been phished about 4 times.

While all of the stuff in new install is opt out. Its still a step back. Whats funny is that after you see all of that spyware being thrown in your face a box pops up at the end of the install wanting your email address. If that doesn't make you worried on some level even if just for a moment, you need to listen to some "security now".

Here is what I posted on the digsby forum regarding the new installer

First of let me start by saying I downloaded the first beta that was made available to the public. When I say I was quite impressed I'm not kidding. Never before had I fallen in love with an IM client that I continued to use for months and still use to this day. I tried other IM clients like Pidgin or Miranda. But they got deleted after about a day of use. They just never felt right. The previous IM messenger I used was trillian. With the new Astra release taking forever and the god ugly default UI, well let's just say Digsby came along just in time.

About 2 weeks ago I was at a customer's house. I do computer repair and I was there on a repair job. I just finished reinstalling Windows XP from a malware infection. I was going to have them try Digsby, in hopes this would prevent them having to run 4 different messengers at once. I went to the site and downloaded the installer. Once I opened the installer to start installing Digsby, to say I was surprised is an understatement. I was so surprised that I thought somehow I had been phished by miss typing the URL. So I checked it, double checked it and triple checked it. Surely this installer couldn't be related to Digsby? So I checked it again. At this point I closed the installer hopping I just didn't catch some kind of infection on this nice clean xp machine. I don't know what frightened me more about that installer. The fact it looked so doggy or all of the different things I could potentially infect (yes I said infect, most of that stuff is spyware) this machine with.

I don't know if it's because I'm computer savvy, or the fact I listen to the podcast "Security Now" every week and just had a gibsonian response(a response Steve Gibson would have if he ran your installer).

I realize that you make all of the items on the installer opt out. Being in the computer repair business you see just how stupid people can be. People will infect themselves will all sorts of stuff without trying very hard. Unfortunately I feel your new Digsby installer gives people an even easier way to accomplish that.

I know you guys want to make money. After all, you are making something for free. I just have to imaging there is a better way to accomplish this than by using your new frightenly infectious installer. Remember how bad the buzz surrounding Kazza was from installing tons spyware on peoples machines? At this point in time I feel you are really no different, other than the fact you ask people before you do it. The truth of the matter is people are too stupid to opt out.

I would try a donation button first. See how that goes. If you offered free life time upgrades I'd buy a copy of your product for $20. Just please do away with your new installer. While I guess you guys mean well on some really hard to figure out level, in the end your shooting yourself in the foot. Keep it up and you will be known as the Kazza of instant messengers.

Adam

And now for the photos

Edited December 30, 2008 by warwagon

[Mikee99]

I first noticed this new installer a few weeks ago, and I was completely shocked and horrified. I was so angry, I was honestly considering making a post on here to bitch about it. Not only is what they have done terrible for the average computer user, but it absolutely ruins my trust in Digsby altogether. I can no longer recommend Digsby to anybody. It's a real shame too, since Digsby is essentially the Adium for Windows.

It's almost like they want people to stop using Digsby. Thus far, they have received very bad criticism over it. The tech blogs and forums are the ones who spread the word about Digsby. It's because of us essentially why Digsby has done so well. We are also capable of bringing Digsby down. They really should reconsider this decision to bundle malware with their product, because if they don't, Pidgin's popularity is going to skyrocket...

On the topic of Pidgin, the problem with Pidgin is that is looks very out of place on Windows, and feels very cheaply made. Changing themes is a pain, and getting the fonts to look and work nice is a pain or next to impossible to do in some cases.

I really wish the Adium developers would port it over to Windows. Adium is, without a doubt, the best IM client currently out there.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Mikee99

[Purple Haze]

^This.

Adium's the program I miss most from when I had a Powerbook.

[Happy-Dude]

Haha, nice find.

Guess I will not be switching my IM clients anytime soon; glad I have loyalties :) (Trillian + Meebo + Pidgin; I use 'em all).

Still, I can't believe there's that much there. I mean, I understand what Cerulean Studios had to do for their Basic version (only 2 things as far as I know, Ask + Weather), but the amount Digsby throws at you is OUTRAGEOUS.

What do you feel about what Cerulean Studios is doing for Trillian as opposed to what Digsby is doing? (Gotta admit, that auto-on research thing isn't comparable to Trillian, which makes it all the worst.)

And I think I should point out that the Trillian model is a Basic free version with some third-party stuff in the installer, but as far as I know, is NOT AD-SUPPORTED. On the other hand, Pro version is paid for, and gives you a bunch of stuff (like support and such). Dunno how they will deal with Astra thou, and I hope they respect that the people don't like crapware bundled with apps.

Trillian = my main (I love this thing, and looks like Astra will finally step it up a notch), Pidgin = minimalist (chat now), Meebo = away from main PC. I don't think Digsby will be able to overtake Astra once it hits final (as far as I hear, its getting really polished).

[Gersson]

the installer freezes my laptop EVERY time

i cant even get it to run

Same thing happens to me!

Maybe there IS a god! :devil:

[+Warwagon MVC]

Did an install of digsby with all its spyware crap in sandboxie inside virtual box.

[wellofsouls]

Dude, you need to learn what the terms opt-in and opt-out mean.

Opt-in means that you are not included by default and you have to ask to be included.

Opt-out means that you are included by default and you have to ask to be excluded.

The digsby installer falls into the second category I mentioned above. A normal user will just click Accept, Accept, Accept, etc without reading, thereby ending up with the malware installed. What they should do instead is follow Messenger Plus! Live's example and make you check a radio box to say YES or NO, then press Next. That way, if you end up with the malware, you are too stupid to own a computer.

Nope, Opt-out just means "to not be included".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-out

And dude, you are the one who need to learn what the terms "opt-in by default" and "opt-out by default" mean.

%22opt-out+by+default%22

%22opt-in+by+default%22

The Digsby installer's spyware/adware installation and their secret "optional research project" are clearly "opt-in by default". The one who need to learn the meaning of those terms is not me, but you.

[Owen W Veteran]

I really don't think it's fair to compare Digsby to Messenger Plus!. Cyril and the rest of us have worked extremely hard to make it clear that the sponsor program is not only 100% noticeable when installing, but also have worked to keep the sponsor program non-intrusive by filtering out nudity and profanity out of the advertisements. To say that you quit using Messenger Plus! because of the "addition of adware in the installer" is very misleading because it's totally noticeable.

50 million people use Messenger Plus! and it's resources on a daily basis, so it takes a lot for Cyril to keep the software going smoothly. The only way that we're able to see new version of Messenger Plus! offering new features (Such as the custom sounds feature), is by having the sponsor program.

I agree.

Moves like this from Digsby are the reason I use products like Windows Live Messenger, Windows Live Mail...etc. Because a company that is actually trustworthy actually makes them. That way I can always trace a problem if I install addons or something else...

[Clinteger]

Hm. I'm a long time user of Digsby, and I use it every day. I hang out in the IRC chatroom, where some of the developers occasionally chat. They're nice people, but I think that it is the head developer that is ordering most of these changes, which is sad. He's not a decent project manager as we can all see, especially considering the amount of talent the developers have.

It's sad, but just have http://update.digsby.com/install/digsby_setup.exe always in mind, it really is the clean[er] installer.

[shihchiun]

Nope, Opt-out just means "to not be included".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-out

And dude, you are the one who need to learn what the terms "opt-in by default" and "opt-out by default" mean.

%22opt-out+by+default%22

%22opt-in+by+default%22

The Digsby installer's spyware/adware installation and their secret "optional research project" are clearly "opt-in by default". The one who need to learn the meaning of those terms is not me, but you.

No, TCLN Ryster is correct.

[Owen W Veteran]

No, TCLN Ryster is correct.

Sure is.

Also, remember wiki is not really a 100% sure fire answer. It can be wrong.

[ZombieFly]

i've been using digsby since day 1 and i've always been intrigued about how they expected to make money from it. The devs are really nice people, i've had dialogue with them a few times over bug reports etc. Sad that they've resorted to this, but using the update installer gets around the problem for now. I think they've just killed the product dead with this move though and the defaulted "research" option is downright cheeky. Silly :no:

[SMELTN]

you know after reading the blog post, I see this is a "TRIAL" thing, just to test it out, so HOPEFULLY, they get enough negative feedback from it, that the dev's scrap the idea, and move on.

[DanManIt]

Can't believe they would add all of that crap to the intaller

[olaf]

I was having trouble deciding whether I preferred Digsby or Pidgin. This made it an easy decision.

[JoHideo]

Although I think the installer is pretty bad, I'm going to have to defend the Digsby developers.

First of all, the product is in beta and they are testing a method of revenue. I'm sure that with negative feedback, they may decide to scrap it.

Second, we as tech savvy users are probably just fine. We know what's up with the program and will take the necessary steps to prevent it from messing with us. I don't see why all of you are quitting using it, you know exactly what to avoid and so you are actually in the best position to use it. As for the less savvy folks, well... yes, this is very bad for them and I do hope Digsby reconsiders this path.

I for one am going to use it though. Nothing beats it and I know how to avoid all the junk.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Looks like their forum is down. Hope they aren't mass deleting the threads about the new installer.

[dmb219]

Although I think the installer is pretty bad, I'm going to have to defend the Digsby developers.

First of all, the product is in beta and they are testing a method of revenue. I'm sure that with negative feedback, they may decide to scrap it.

Second, we as tech savvy users are probably just fine. We know what's up with the program and will take the necessary steps to prevent it from messing with us. I don't see why all of you are quitting using it, you know exactly what to avoid and so you are actually in the best position to use it. As for the less savvy folks, well... yes, this is very bad for them and I do hope Digsby reconsiders this path.

I for one am going to use it though. Nothing beats it and I know how to avoid all the junk.

You pretty much took the words outa my mouth. The installer is nasty. Reminded me of what my son said to me last nite - "have you looked at anyone's computer lately that has like 5 toolbars and a ton of crap going on?" It's not hard to install Digsby and leave the rest behind but if you don't pay attention, you are screwed. Digsby is an excellent program but that installer will be their demise and I think they will see that.

[AbandonedTrolley]

I've been using Digsby from the early days too. Always had it push updates so never seen that fugly installer. As mentioned though, all the options have the ability to opt out. If you choose to not do so, more fool you. Yes I know not everyone looks and to be honest that's their own fault. Do they look when crossing the road?

Only thing that has really annoyed me is the hidden support they have been doing which is now disabled. Won't stop me from using it though.

[Broken Halo]

I'm one of the Digsby developers. Missed this thread until now because we're on vacation until tomorrow, and I've been pretty offline besides some sporadic gaming the last two weeks. ^_^

As a couple people mentioned you can always find the old school style installer here if the ads really bother you: http://update.digsby.com/install/digsby_setup.exe

As for the opt-in/opt-out argument going on in this thread, technically speaking it's both, to opt means requires action, and it requires action to either install the advertised software or to not install it. We are undecided for the long term about the path the installer will take but in the short term we are going to continue to test this installer. We chose that company to provide an ad supported installer for us because the big, obvious ads and clearly labeled "Accept" and "Decline" buttons make it hard to misunderstand what's going on. We also figured that this sort of ad is much better than forcing our users to look at ads in the buddy list or IM window. As well as was better than many other installers that are putting offers in hard to see check boxes, or even worse only asking if you are performing a custom install such as Yahoo now does with theirs.

As for the Research thing, we're going to be making it more obvious in the near feature, moving the setting to the preferences, making it more obvious to the user that it's there, that sort of things. Also more settings are going to be added to the research module such as control over how much CPU it will use and start conditions.

I saw some confusion about how the Research Module works so thought I'd mention a few facts:

- The research module is only loaded and running if it is enabled and the user has been idle for over 5 minutes

- The module is set to take a percentage of the CPU on low priority, meaning if something else wants to use the CPU the module should gladly give it up and only use that percentage of the leftover

- the percentages right now are something like 40% for desktops and 20% for laptops and other small form factor PCs that are plugged in; the module doesn't run at all if the PC is running off of a battery

The simple matter is that startups need to make money, otherwise they fall apart. Look at the current economy, and specifically at all the large companies that have laid off large numbers of workers as well as all the small startups that have closed their doors over the holiday season. The economy is going to get worse before it gets better and we think we found a fair way to keep Digsby healthy without dis-servicing most users.

If you have suggestions of other ways to generate income there's a thread on the Digsby message boards for this: http://forum.digsby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2994

I'm fairly active on the boards, user name is Aaron. Also I'm almost always in the IRC room during workdays as Brok3n_Halo: #digsby on irc.freenode.net

Edited January 4, 2009 by Broken Halo

[Knife Party]

I've said byebye to this crapware a while ago, I'm glad I haven't checked out the new builds, hope that many more will stay away from such malware infested installers that make their developers come onto forums to justify something like this. Good riddance on my behalf, never again

[SMELTN]

thanks for clearing some things up Broken.. Really helps

[Inklin]

I was going to try out digsby a few weeks ago until i ran the installer and say all that spyware crap, im not trusting it.

[Neoauld]

i was uninstalling digsby on my laptop not that long ago, and there was a no spyware no viruses no malware logo..or somethin like that

and i chuckled as its the complet eopposite now

[Shasoosh]

I don't really get what's the big deal. "All the offers shown to you during installation are 100% optional"

deamon tools are doing it and a thousand other good apps.

how those guys suppose to make a living without ads? (maybe i'm missing something guys, i've read half of this thread)

[Popcorned1]

Yeah, I don't understand the fuss either. Click "Decline" about 4 or 5 times and I have the same brilliant application I had before. This topic is full of kiddies who don't seem to understand how the real world works.