Why do I have to double quit some applications?

[jebus197]

Hi, I admit I am very used to doing things on Windows. But can anyone explain to me the logic behind why I have to double quit some applications? In Windows if I click the red X icon on the top left corner of any screen it will either close the application immediately, or ask me to confirm if I want to quit. In OS X it all seems to depend on which application you are using. Sometimes clicking the red X will immediately close the app., sometimes it will ask for confirmation if I want to quit - and sometimes (and most confusing of all) is that it will stay running, and simply be minimized to the task bar (or whatever it's called) at the top.

It seems to require that you remember which application is likely to do what. Is there any way to change his to something more predictable? Like clicking on the red X will actually in fact close the app., or as I said at least provide a confirmation dialogue asking if I want to quit?

[the evn show]

  jebus197 said:

But can anyone explain to me the logic behind why I have to double quit some applications?

You're confusing the purpose of the left-most title bar button. On Mac OS X it means "close Window", on Windows it generally means "Close this window, unless there is no other Windows open in which case you should exit the application to." While there are some exceptions to this behavior in Mac OS X (notably iPhoto and System preferences) you should treat the buttons as "close this window" the default behavior for Mac OS X is to leave the application running even if there are no Windows open.

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In OS X it all seems to depend on which application you are using.

This is an accurate description of the situation, and there is no in-built way to change this behavior. A third party tool called Stoplight is supposed to allow you to change the functionality of window title bar buttons. I have no comment on this application as I've never downloaded or installed it but you should note this article raises some concerns about stability when using it.

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Sometimes clicking the red X will immediately close the app., sometimes it will ask for confirmation if I want to quit - and sometimes (and most confusing of all) is that it will stay running, and simply be minimized to the task bar (or whatever it's called) at the top.

In most cases, applications that are not document-based should quit when the main window is closed (OSX HIG, p. 217)

Immediately quitting the application is typically the behavior of "use and quit" applications. For example: once you're done changing your desktop wallpaper and closed the system preferences window there is absolutely no reason for it to remain running. The recommendation is intended to save the user a trip to the 'Application -> quit' menu.

If an application continues to perform some function when the main window is closed, however, it may be appropriate to leave it running when the main window is closed. (OSX HIG p. 217

Document based applications (like Microsoft Word or Safari) should remain open because they can provide 'useful' options even without a Window open. For example: you might choose to open a new Word document or visit something from the bookmarks menu.

iTunes and similar applications are considered a document-based applications because you can choose to open streams, playlists, or import files, there is no need for a player window to be open while playing-back audio.

Warnings about quitting an application when closing the last window shouldn't occur unless there are 'in progress' activities (like iChat transferring a file) in the background. In those cases the "are you sure" warning should function the same as any other "you're about to quit with unsaved changes: are you sure you want to discard them?" dialog.

Which program(s) are popping up warnings for no good reason?

[jebus197]

  Quote

Which program(s) are popping up warnings for no good reason?

Not many. But it is still quite confusing to have to remember all of this - and I doubt ultimately I will. It's a fairly complex logic - and possibly one that only the most avid of devotees would readily be able to take on board. (So not so easy for switchers and n00bs).

Throwing up a default notification in such cases asking whether you really want to quit, or leave the application running in the background certainly wouldn't hurt. As things stand, it's the OS an Apple that decide which applications to leave open and which to quit - which somehow doesn't seem right.

I guess I'll have to just try to get used to the idea of double clicking quitting some things and not needing to do this with others - and not really knowing what app is likely to do which. The reason it's frustrating is that sometimes you simply forget that an application is still open and it just sits here eating resources and lowering performance.

I think it's interesting to note too that her seems to be no easy way to get to your desktop with several windows open without using spaces to do so. Spaces is good - but it seems like a kind of radical solution to a fundamental problem of needing a simple way to do window management on the desktop. I can't imaging how you guys coped before spaces came along.

[the evn show]

  jebus197 said:

Not many. But it is still quite confusing to have to remember all of this - and I doubt ultimately I will. It's a fairly complex logic - and possibly one that only the most avid of devotees would readily be able to take on board. (So not so easy for switchers and n00bs).

If you see applications popping up pointless dialogs, make a list and post here. I would expect anything doing something that obtrusive will either have an option to disable it or a much more useable alternative.

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Throwing up a default notification in such cases asking whether you really want to quit, or leave the application running in the background certainly wouldn't hurt. As things stand, it's the OS an Apple that decide which applications to leave open and which to quit - which somehow doesn't seem right.

I disagree with the first sentence: a dialog that is usually answered in the same way is pointless. For example: how many people would close all of their system preferences windows but want it to remain running in the background or alternatively: how many people would close all of their iTunes Windows but want it to continue playing music in the background?

I would love to see some consistency but a dialog is the worst possible solution IMO.

Also, it's not Apple or the operating system that controls the quit behavior when all windows close, it's the developer of the program. The default behavior in Cocoa and Carbon is for applications to run until they are explicitly terminated (which is the correct action IMO) and most programs work this way. NSApplication provides a delegate method that by default will return "no" called 'applicationShouldTerminateAfterLastWindowClosed:' that the programmer can override to return true (or perform other checks and respond accordingly) that will change this standard behavoir.

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The reason it's frustrating is that sometimes you simply forget that an application is still open and it just sits here eating resources and lowering performance.

The performance impact of applications sitting idle in the dock are negligible.

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I think it's interesting to note too that her seems to be no easy way to get to your desktop with several windows open without using spaces to do so.

Any recent notebook will allow you to place 4 fingers on the track pad and drag up.

For all macs running the current operating system pressing F11 has the same effect.

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Spaces is good - but it seems like a kind of radical solution to a fundamental problem of needing a simple way to do window management on the desktop.

Spaces isn't that at all, it's a solution to wanting more screen real-estate than physically available.

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I can't imaging how you guys coped before spaces came along.

Similar to the way windows users do now: with a combination of alt+tab/tilde, hiding/minimizing windows, and choosing windows by selecting them from menus on icons at the bottom of the screen.

The truly hard-core would hold down command+option and click on the desktop. That's hidden everything but Finder windows since before Windows had a desktop capable of holding files.

[jebus197]

Well I can tell you're an apple fan as you seem to be slightly on the defensive. The logic for you might be good and you may/or may not understand it preferably - but it is certainly not simple for the casual user to grasp.

It really just boils down to if I attempt to close an application, I expect it to close permanently and to not have to guess whether it will close properly or not. I should at least be presented with a choice, whether by a dialogue or by some other means (although I have no idea how this could be achieved differently - or indeed what exactly the problem is with having a dialogue. You could do it via command and click or something like that I guess - but this still requires even more use of the keyboard, on a system that already seems to rely heavily on a significant number of keyboard commands - which of course I guess has always been he Unix way).

As for resources, any open app will consume resources - particularly if you have several open at the same time - which is a common occurrence when I let my kids or wife use the system. I will go back to it and find an empty desktop - but with a bunch of apps still open. It's almost becoming a habit now to go through quitting these when I return to my Macbook - and of course it's almost impossible to explain the logic to them of why some apps quit and some do not.

Having said that OS X is probably the most slick Unix type desktop I have ever used - but it does still seem to have several very Unix like inconsistencies. (Which I guess you almost expect as Unix was never originally designed for desktop use).

It's still good though and I'm loving the Unix like underbelly of OS X and playing about here and there with he CLI and all my favorite Linux commands (which all appear to be present and correct). So I'm not criticizing it substantially. I just think it's got a way to in terms of consistency in a few places.

[Rudy]

getting used to cmd-q was the first thing I did, works great

[Ricardo Gil]

  jebus197 said:

It really just boils down to if I attempt to close an application, I expect it to close permanently and to not have to guess whether it will close properly or not. I should at least be presented with a choice, whether by a dialogue or by some other means (although I have no idea how this could be achieved differently - or indeed what exactly the problem is with having a dialogue. You could do it via command and click or something like that I guess - but this still requires even more use of the keyboard, on a system that already seems to rely heavily on a significant number of keyboard commands - which of course I guess has always been he Unix way).

That's where you're doing it wrong. You're not attempting to close the application, you're just closing the current window.

In OSX almost everything is an MDI application, just like Photoshop. If you want to quit the application, all you have to do is click on the "Quit" menu, not close a window.

[jebus197]

Yeah well, I guess I can handle that. It's quite hard to change the habits of a lifetime though. But I'm not so sure about my own family members (or n00bs/switchers in general) either, as I still envisage having quit applications properly each time I allow someone else to use this machine.

[Malisk]

Yes, this confused me too as well at first, but I like others have got used to Cmd+Q to close the actual application.

Everything that's not dialog based on Mac are basically MDI based. Dialog based apps cannot open multiple windows, so they close at the button, but otherwise it's just the actual window.

[Steve]

On the Mac, there's more of a separation between windows and applications. As a long time Mac user, I find actually managing Windows on Windows, to be cumbersome, ironically enough.

On a Mac, I know I can close Windows with CMD + W, or I can quit with CMD + Q. These are fairly obvious and intuitive keyboard shortcuts in terms of where the keys are positioned. I recall on Windows ALT+F4 being a similar equivalent, but it's behavior not so... I believe, unless things have changed in Vista, some applications can quit when you ALT+F4, some may close the current window and some may close all windows but remain active via the notification bar. Beyond these two shortcuts, similarly I can manage my windows WITHIN an application via CMD + ` (left of the Z key) and manage/switch applications via CMD + TAB. Moving back to the Windows comparisions, unless things have changed, I am stuck with ALT + TAB - which switches windows. This itself for me isn't quite as nice as i'd like either - with it showing only a limited number of 'results' which forces you to cycle through the whole lot, to see what additional windows open. Again this may have changed in Vista - I don't use Vista too often, but you'd think Microsoft would be able to show all windows open, in a better method than what I'm used to.

Funnily enough that brings me onto the best way to manage windows and applications - possibly on ANY platform. Expos? to me is simply awesome and enhances my productivity no end. I have hot corners setup (bottom left for ALL windows, bottom right for the desktop, top right for current application windows). Again this allows me to quickly flick the mouse/trackpad and manage my current application windows, all windows or indeed get to my desktop, WITHOUT even a click. I strongly suggest you setup Expos? to replicate this kind of setup, so you no longer have to hunt down to get to your desktop... Expos?'s functionality is greatly enhanced when you grow accustom to it, in conjunction to other popular Mac paradigms such as 'drag and drop'. You can for example mouse to the hot corner, grab a file, mouse to the other corner, show all windows, hover and drop the file on selected window, all in a seamless motion - regardless of it's stacking order. This kind of scenario is MUCH more cumbersome on Windows.

I realize I am going off somewhat on a tangent, but i figured mentioning these things would help you in using your Mac, more how a Mac should be. On my team, I am the only user not on a Windows box, and I'm used to seeing Windows users hop onto my Mac and be frustrated that core Windows concepts aren't quite the same on my Mac. We have to remember it's a Mac, and it's OS X - it shouldn't behave like Windows purely because Windows is more 'popular'.

[houlty]

jebus197, i'm really not being funny, but after reading all of your threads and questions, i think you should go back to Windows. It's like you bought the Mac with OS X expecting it to be exactly the same as using Windows.

Did you never use a mac before deciding to throw so much money at one? If not then you should of...

[jebus197]

And I don't care what you think, so chew on that for a while. In any case I was given my Mac for fee as part of my new job. To me it's just another computer - a tool to get a job done. I couldn't care less if it runs Windows, or Mac, as I have no preference whatsoever. I am no fanboy of any commercial product. So long as it doesn't hinder me in my work, that is the only thing of any meaningful significance to me.

You certainly won't catch me jerking off over any Steve Jobs (or Bill Gates for that matter) keynote type speech. Anyway FYI, I have windows 7 and OS X installed - and I like them both equally well. Heresy to some of the more faithful here I'm sure. ;-)

  Steve said:

On the Mac, there's more of a separation between windows and applications. As a long time Mac user, I find actually managing Windows on Windows, to be cumbersome, ironically enough.

On a Mac, I know I can close Windows with CMD + W, or I can quit with CMD + Q. These are fairly obvious and intuitive keyboard shortcuts in terms of where the keys are positioned. I recall on Windows ALT+F4 being a similar equivalent, but it's behavior not so... I believe, unless things have changed in Vista, some applications can quit when you ALT+F4, some may close the current window and some may close all windows but remain active via the notification bar. Beyond these two shortcuts, similarly I can manage my windows WITHIN an application via CMD + ` (left of the Z key) and manage/switch applications via CMD + TAB. Moving back to the Windows comparisions, unless things have changed, I am stuck with ALT + TAB - which switches windows. This itself for me isn't quite as nice as i'd like either - with it showing only a limited number of 'results' which forces you to cycle through the whole lot, to see what additional windows open. Again this may have changed in Vista - I don't use Vista too often, but you'd think Microsoft would be able to show all windows open, in a better method than what I'm used to.

Funnily enough that brings me onto the best way to manage windows and applications - possibly on ANY platform. Expos? to me is simply awesome and enhances my productivity no end. I have hot corners setup (bottom left for ALL windows, bottom right for the desktop, top right for current application windows). Again this allows me to quickly flick the mouse/trackpad and manage my current application windows, all windows or indeed get to my desktop, WITHOUT even a click. I strongly suggest you setup Expos? to replicate this kind of setup, so you no longer have to hunt down to get to your desktop... Expos?'s functionality is greatly enhanced when you grow accustom to it, in conjunction to other popular Mac paradigms such as 'drag and drop'. You can for example mouse to the hot corner, grab a file, mouse to the other corner, show all windows, hover and drop the file on selected window, all in a seamless motion - regardless of it's stacking order. This kind of scenario is MUCH more cumbersome on Windows.

I realize I am going off somewhat on a tangent, but i figured mentioning these things would help you in using your Mac, more how a Mac should be. On my team, I am the only user not on a Windows box, and I'm used to seeing Windows users hop onto my Mac and be frustrated that core Windows concepts aren't quite the same on my Mac. We have to remember it's a Mac, and it's OS X - it shouldn't behave like Windows purely because Windows is more 'popular'.

Cheers, I'm just getting used to spaces and expose. It works pretty well - except when you hit a hot corner accidentally, which can be a little frustrating. I've had similar issues with Ubuntu and all the fancy effects it comes with in the past. In this case it was easy to switch them off - but I think i would be nearly impossible to cope without these on a Mac.

[houlty]

  jebus197 said:

And I don't care what you think, so chew on that for a while. In any case I was given my Mac for fee as part of my new job. To me it's just another computer - a tool to get a job done. I couldn't care less if it runs Windows, or Mac, as I have no preference whatsoever. I am no fanboy of any commercial product. So long as it doesn't hinder me in my work, that is the only thing of any meaningful significance to me.

You certainly won't catch me jerking off over any Steve Jobs (or Bill Gates for that matter) keynote type speech. Anyway FYI, I have windows 7 and OS X installed - and I like them both equally well. Heresy to some of the more faithful here I'm sure. ;-)

don't get your back up, it just seems that you've used windows, become accustomed to it, and like it.

if you have to use OS X for you job, fair enough, i didn't know that. it's just that every question you've asked relates to OS X not being like windows, hence why i suggested windows would be a better option for you... it's logical.

also, not sure why the fanboy comments relate to my reply, or any other part of this topic. you seem to of introduced that element all on your own.

[the evn show]

  jebus197 said:

Well I can tell you're an apple fan as you seem to be slightly on the defensive.

I don't care much for Mac OS X at all. Don't confuse my having an indepth understanding of it's inner workings with some sort of affection for their product.

When I think your arguments are baseless or your assertions aren't factual I'll call you out on them. Don't confuse my distaste for nonsense with a disagreement with your argument or proposal of a contrary viewpoint.

I'm reasonably sure we have a rule against trotting out the "fanboy" slur and we'd all appreciate it if you knocked it off. I understand you're loathe to learn new things but could you do us all a favor and come up with a more original ad-hominem? If you're going to trash talk the people offering help it's only fair you use a little bit of imagination.

Edited April 23, 2009 by evn.

[Rob Veteran]

jebus197 - People are trying to help you, give them a break - they can disagree with you without you having to attribute it to being defensive or somehow stereotypical behaviour.

Back to the issue at hand, the close button serves different functions between the two OSs. It's a fundamentally different paradigm that's tough to grasp for a switcher. Neither is necessarily better, it's just different and the old way is more familiar to you.

Having made the switch to OS X myself a year ago, I can't say I have a preference either way as far as close buttons are concerned but I've gotten used to it very quickly. The biggest win for me was when I gave my experience with OS X a week without fighting to make it more like Windows; I started using it for what it was and it made the transition easier.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Rob

[jebus197]

  evn. said:

I don't care much for Mac OS X at all. Don't confuse my having an indepth understanding of it's inner workings with some sort of affection for their product.

When I think your arguments are baseless or your assertions aren't factual I'll call you out on them. Don't confuse my distaste for nonsense with a disagreement with your argument or proposal of a contrary viewpoint.

I'm reasonably sure we have a rule against trotting out the "fanboy" and we'd all appreciate it if you knocked it off. I understand you're loathe to learn new things but could you do us all a favor and come up with a more original ad-hominem? If you're going to trash talk the people offering help it's only fair you use a little bit of imagination.

He didn't exactly help though did he? Just saying 'go back to Windows' is certainly little or no help and bares no connection with the question being asked. And I didn't call him a fanboy. I said I wasn't. Conversely others have been extremely helpful - and for that, I am genuinely grateful. In any case, as it stands it seems I must use each OS equally - and as I stated previously, I am equally happy to do so - providing it does not hinder me in any way in my work. A computer is no more than a spanner to me, a tool to get a job done. However as I did not pay for my computer, it is possible that I lack the emotional investment that others may attach to their possessions, since they may have had to work or save quite hard to obtain them. For this I can empathize. So to me, a mixture of the best elements of both worlds doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me.

There are good and bad parts to both environments - but providing they work and do what I expect of them, I have little care at all for who the manufacturer may or may not be.