Microsoft holds back the web again

[drhowarddrfine]

Link

It?s difficult to believe that in 2009, after diligently improving standards support in IE7 and now IE8, Microsoft would force email designers to use nonsemantic table layout techniques that fractured the web, squandered bandwidth, and made a joke of accessibility back in the 1990s.

For a company that claims to believe in innovation and standards, and has spent five years redeeming itself in the web standards community, the decision to use the non-standards-compliant, decades-old Word rendering engine in the mail program that accompanies its shiny standards-compliant browser makes no sense from any angle. It?s not good for users, not good for business, not good for designers. It?s not logical, not on-brand, and the opposite of a PR win.

Can't this company do anything right?

[AgentGray]

...doesn't Outlook 2007 use IE as a rendering engine for emails in html format? I may be mistaken...but I was fairly sure that was how it worked...

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Old Outlook used IE, new Outlook doesn't.

[ccoltmanm]

How are they forcing people to do that again?

And how is their standard different than others?

[andrewbares]

This sounds like BS to me. IE is already up to standards with IE 8.

[neufuse Veteran]

It's been like that since Outlook 2007 came out, why's this a problem all the sudden?

[drhowarddrfine]

This sounds like BS to me. IE is already up to standards with IE 8.

IE8 is 11 years behind all other browsers in web standards support. While it's CSS2.1 support is good, it fails to support current standards and practices for the DOM from 1998, it does not support XHTML, SVG, proper javascript standards, emerging CSS3 and HTML5 including canvas ALL of which ALL other browsers have supported for years.

IE8 continues Microsoft's legacy of supplying the worst browser on the planet and has stated, on IEBlog, that current standards support for canvas is only a wish and XHTML and SVG isn't even there.

IE8 is a joke in the web development community and holds back the web from moving forward. It is hoped that people here are smart enough to use ANY other browser.

[AltecXP]

I still can't believe that they made Word the Outlook 2007 HTML editor/renderer

[BigBoy]

Ummm...

If you do not want to use Outlook, then don't. How is that holding back the web?

In fact, Microsoft's Outlook Web Access client is one of most advanced AJAX email clients in the world, and now works in Safari and Firefox too...

Edited June 25, 2009 by shockz

[Eric Veteran]

IE8 is 11 years behind all other browsers in web standards support. While it's CSS2.1 support is good, it fails to support current standards and practices for the DOM from 1998, it does not support XHTML, SVG, proper javascript standards, emerging CSS3 and HTML5 including canvas ALL of which ALL other browsers have supported for years.

IE8 continues Microsoft's legacy of supplying the worst browser on the planet and has stated, on IEBlog, that current standards support for canvas is only a wish and XHTML and SVG isn't even there.

IE8 is a joke in the web development community and holds back the web from moving forward. It is hoped that people here are smart enough to use ANY other browser.

11? How do you figure? XHTML and SVG are not web standards, CSS3 isn't finished, and neither is HTML5. And what javascript doesn't work?

[shockz]

Ummm...

If you do not want to use Outlook, then don't. How is that holding back the web?

In fact, Microsoft's Outlook Web Access client is one of most advanced AJAX email clients in the world, and now works in Safari and Firefox too...

Because... for people that do use standard complaint browsers or mail clients, outlook mail occasionally looks like garbage when you receive it. Thats why its holding back the web. And vice versa... people that send HTML mail through a standard complaint editor have their e-mails look like crap in Outlook.

[Leddy]

Honestly. It's email. Type your message, paste a few pictures and you're done. If your email layout doesn't render properly using the Word renderer then it is probably too complex for your own good.

[winrez]

IE8 is 11 years behind all other browsers in web standards support.

You show me one browser that passed the even the acid 2 test 11 years ago

Where did you pull that little "fact" from?

[AltecXP]

Ummm...

If you do not want to use Outlook, then don't. How is that holding back the web?

In fact, Microsoft's Outlook Web Access client is one of most advanced AJAX email clients in the world, and now works in Safari and Firefox too...

Hold on, let me go tell my manager that I'm moving over 2000 users off of Outlook.

You show me one browser that passed the even the acid 2 test 11 years ago

Where did you pull that little "fact" from?

Maybe because it still fails DOM from 1998.

[winrez]

Maybe because it still fails DOM from 1998.

Microsoft Internet Explorer - XML/HTML Browser - Full support for the Level 1 DOM.

Source: http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Internet/W3C_DOM/

IE has supported the standard Lvl 1 DOM since IE5

[drhowarddrfine]

11? How do you figure? XHTML and SVG are not web standards, CSS3 isn't finished, and neither is HTML5. And what javascript doesn't work?

Test your browser here.

How well does IE8 support DOM Level 1 from 1998?

XHTML is not a standard? You're kidding, right?

XHTML

SVG is not a standard? You're kidding, right?

SVG

CSS 2.1 was only finalized 2 years ago yet all the browsers, except IE of course, supported it. Standards are based on implementations. Standards bodies generally do not invent anything. ALL the modern browsers, not IE of course, are implementing quite a bit of CSS3 and HTML5. A large number of developers are implementing HTML5 methods now.

Javascript? Or do you mean JScript? Which is it? Microsoft is fighting the standards committee on that right now. But Microsoft doesn't show up to the meetings till the last minute when everyone else has already voted. Same with the HTML5 Working Group. Microsoft co-chairs but never shows to meetings, doesn't return email or phone calls. Guess they don't care about the future of the web. Obvious with what they've done to Outlook.

Microsoft Internet Explorer - XML/HTML Browser - Full support for the Level 1 DOM.

Source: http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Internet/W3C_DOM/

IE has supported the standard Lvl 1 DOM since IE5

Check the real test from the W3C in IE8 which I link to above. Then do it again in a modern browser (any browser but IE).

[winrez]

Wow I stand corrected

I will shut my mouth now lol :whistle:

[FloatingFatMan]

people that send HTML mail through a standard complaint editor have their e-mails look like crap in Outlook.

People that send HTML emails should have crocodile clips clamped to their nuts, then be dangled by said clips over a 20 foot deep pit filled with scorpions and have 5000 volts run through their nuts every 10 seconds.

For a year.

[DavidM]

People that send HTML emails should have crocodile clips clamped to their nuts, then be dangled by said clips over a 20 foot deep pit filled with scorpions and have 5000 volts run through their nuts every 10 seconds.

For a year.

I agree, it's an email not a web page. Type your message and move on.

[Lechio]

Nice movement. Thank you for the info.

Here's the link for using twitter (page may not render properly in IE):

http://fixoutlook.org/

And the link to the blog with Microsoft's response and the answers of the many people who have to use Outlook:

http://blogs.msdn.com/outlook/archive/2009...in-outlook.aspx

[ToneKnee]

Any one though that Microsoft cannot use the IE engine in Outlook because of possible lawsuits with the EU?

[Paixao]

Any one though that Microsoft cannot use the IE engine in Outlook because of possible lawsuits with the EU?

And they removed IE on Windows 7 here in the EU.

[Panacik]

Why is this thread aloud to remain open? Its nothing more than a bashing session at IE...

[Growled Member]

Why is this thread aloud to remain open? Its nothing more than a bashing session at IE...

Ain't they all? If not IE, then Windows or Microsoft or......

[drhowarddrfine]

Why is this thread aloud to remain open? Its nothing more than a bashing session at IE...

It is not. It's about Outlook. The only other mention of IE was to correct someone's post about IE's standards support.