Computer BSOD ONLY when in Upright position and fine when horizontal

[drdrew]

Here's a puzzler for you...

I built my AMD X2 3800 Epox 9npa Ultra 2Gb DDR system 4 years ago, and it's been fine for the most part, but when I keep the tower upright and vertical, I get random BSOD errors and subsequently XP will not boot and tell me it's got some critical files missing, followed by my computer not booting. The error code from Epox's mobo indicator when the system will not boot is 50 which seems to refer to the USB system not booting.

Then I shutdown and shift my computer's orientation back to horizontal (mobo lying upright on the floor), and everything boots fine and I have no problems. The question is why this MIGHT be... I have switched graphics cards during this time so that's not it, and I have upgraded my memory to give me the 2Gb from 1Gb. The latest issue BSOD occurred when I was trying to record TV off one of my 2 TV tuners (1 is PCI-E and the other is PCI). All cards have been set and reset during the 4 years so I believe they are all in place properly. The CPU is fine when in the horizontal position so that's not it. In the vertical position, my computer has been fine for the last 2 days before the issue presented itself again. My instinct tells me it is has to do with USB system on the computer case and/or mobo, but I don't know what I can do about it. I am sure it has something to do with gravity pulling something when the case is upright, but who knows.

Anyone ever hear of something like this or have an idea what I can do about it?

Thanks!

Andrew

[dragon2611]

Is it possible the motherboard or some component is shifting just enough to ground out on something?

[fix-this!]

you must have a loose piece of hardware somewhere. that's the only way this would happen.

[Sam Symons Veteran]

Yep, the only explanation is loose hardware of some sort (Y) Best to check everything out and make sure everything is secure.

[yxz]

make use of artificial gravity

[O.G]

Could it be heat? Maybe your cooling works better when it's lying down. An incorrectly seated HSF? Or simply when it's standing, heat from other components rises and just sits at the top of the case, around the cpu making the cfu fan useless. One of the reasons I bought a BTX style chassis.

[drdrew]

Wow, you guys are fast and helpful! The shifting/ground out theory is definitely possible, and I have tried to check every connector/card when I first noticed this problem years ago. It's been fine and horizontal for some time, but a couple days ago I wanted to experiment and see if the issue was still there. The heat issue is definitely possible also, but I actually see my temps (CPU and system) go down when upright. I do keep my 3 12cm fans (intake, out, and HSF) at a low speed to reduce noise and have a recommended and expensive Seasonic 500W PSU which is one of the quietest out there. My temps used to be in the low 30s 'C, but now are in the 40's after adding my Aver PCI-E HDTV tuner (which is located near the PSU/CPU). My HS is a XP-90 with Arctic Silver 5, with the 12cm fan blowing towards the CPU (I have tried having the air blow towards the back but the 1100RPM fan isn't powerful enough to do much good that way and I have an open side vent on my case). I would suspect it may have to do with the PCI-E HD card since the connector to the mobo is so small and the card is fairly long and heavy and it produces a lot of heat and it seems like my issues began when I got it although I could be wrong. What I can do about it if it is a connection issue due to gravity is beyond me. If it is a heat issue, I am not sure I want to deal with finding a place to put a fan, nor do I feel like the added noise is worth it to get the case vertical. I have recorded tv for hours with both of my tuner cards when horizontal, so my feeling is that the heat would be enough to cause the same problem as when the case is vertical, and it was fine. I have definitely over the years reset the Aver card to ensure a tight fit, but like I said it is heavy, so it may not be enough. And the issue repeated itself today only when using the 2 cards, so it seems likely that it has something to do with one or both - heat or gravity or a combination. Thanks to all for your input and time!

Edited September 27, 2009 by drdrew

[drdrew]

Any followup suggestions for the PCI-E Aver HDTV card or any other possibilities that could cause the issue I described? Just check to make sure everything has a tight fit?

[Unrealistic]

Have you reseated the actual motherboard? From your posts, it doesn't seem like you have, and that is typically where your ground issues will occur.

[dragon2611]

I'd check the motherboard hasn't shifted . and that there are standoffs in all the correct places, it's possible the shift in weight might be just enough to flex it slightly.

Also might be worth checking those temps.

P.s

When posting long posts could you try and use paragraphs please, whist I can't speak for others I actually find it quite hard to read large contiguous blocks of text.

[drdrew]

Yeah, I understand dragon Re: the paragraph usage - I did realize that after I posted but I edited it out a bit and actually its shorter than it was before! Next time, I will try to do better.

I think there may be something to the motherboard shift theory as there is a decent amount of weight on it and I haven't checked the standoffs recently. It's just a pain the butt to do and the end result is not exactly life or death for my computer experience. But you all have given me good things to look into should I decide I really want to make my computer upright! Thank you!

[carmatic]

  Quote

I would suspect it may have to do with the PCI-E HD card since the connector to the mobo is so small and the card is fairly long and heavy and it produces a lot of heat and it seems like my issues began when I got it although I could be wrong.

pcb's can flex... and plastic materials generally tend to get softer as the heat increases... if the issues truly began when you had that card, it would sort of make sense, since the PCI-E bus is quite closely related to the USB system (i think they run off the same bus?), and if by your mobo is sitting upright you mean its lying flat on the ground, that would mean the weight of the card , together with the leverage of its length, is no longer flexing your card 'out-of-plane' and therefore crashing your computer...

the card might not need to actually short something out, it could be that a solder joint on the card is barely touching what its supposed to connect to, and the flex would pull the joint apart and suddenly disable the card or something...

or perhaps the card is fine and solid, but its weight , and the leverage on the pci-e port, is twisting the mobo out of shape, and resulting in a solder joint pulling apart somewhere on the mobo... it would make a better explanation for the USB not booting thing...

its a shame that you have to keep the case horizontal and not take advantage of the lower temps you get when you have it vertical, tho...

[majortom1981]

Why has nobody said the hdd? If the hdd is going it could do that. I have been able to get hdd to boot up to get data off of them bye switching their position.

Could be the motor or something dying.

[a1ien]

Yup it could be a failing hard drive or no one mentioned that the CPU cooler might not be secure. An insecure CPU cooler can work fine when horizontal and cause overheat BSOD when vertical.

[Raa]

I'd pull ALL your RAM out and reseat every chip. Just to be safe.

Do a memtest (www.memtest.org) just to rule it out after moving it, that way you can be sure!

[TEX4S]

  majortom1981 said:

Why has nobody said the hdd? If the hdd is going it could do that. I have been able to get hdd to boot up to get data off of them bye switching their position.

Could be the motor or something dying.

+1

the HDD is what I was thinking --

hell if you handle a HDD while its connected and rotate it a little back and forth - on the older ones, and cheap ones - you can hear the spindle arm move -- could be the issue...

[drdrew]

Wow - just when I thought the possible suggestions had exhausted themselves!

Carmatic - Upright means the case is standing tall so the motherboard would be upright rather than lying flat on the ground. Your post was a bit over my head technically - but the USB 50 code means that the board was loading the USB system and couldn't get past it but nothing came on screen yet (no posting), and I am not 100% sure that USB is to blame here - seems odd considering all the other facts.

Raa - I mentioned in my OP that the memory is different now than when the computer was built (different brand and size), and in both instances it passed Memtest many times. So I don't believe memory (unless it's the slots themselves) is to blame.

A1ien - My CPU cooler is the XP-90 - and while it is heavy - there is a very small chance it is insecure since when you are placing it on the CPU, you cannot get it on the hooks without much frustration due the tight fit. And I mentioned that my temps seem to go down a tad when the case is in the Vertical/upright position, so I don't know that I think heat (unless it's PSU related - since heat rises to the PSU when vertical) is to blame here. I have Prime95 torture tested when the case is horizontal in the past and never had an issue - so heat should have been at its max and more or equal to when the case has BSOD in the vertical position.

HDD issue could make sense since in my first post I said that after the BSOD, I restarted and XP first froze while at the loading screen, and then on a second try, gave me a Critical system file missing black screen - telling me to repair XP. But then I shut everything (incl. PSU) down, and XP boots up normal with no error messages in the System log. The only thing that might rule HDD out is that I have since switched boot HDD (and reinstalled XP on the new one) during the 4 years I've had it and both HDD have been witnesses to the issue. The first HDD is still in there now as a secondary drive, so I guess it's possible it could cause the error even as the secondary drive.

I haven't really done anything yet - since my computer has been fine ever since turning it back horizontal, and I am a chicken when it comes to messing too much inside with everything - so unless someone tells me they know EXACTLY why this is happening, I probably will leave it alone. So far there are many possibilities - Motherboard weight/needing to be reset on case, Heat, HDD changing orientation, peripheral cards needing to be reset, HSF not secure, and only a couple are easy to check - but each time I test (bring computer back to vertical) I risk data loss due to BSOD.

I am leaning most to the motherboard is loose theory since this was the first computer I built, and I did reseat the board when changing CPU coolers (XP-90 -> Big tower that wasn't better at cooling -> XP-90) and it's possible it wasn't as tight as it should be when putting it back on the case. I am pretty sure that I tried to tilt my case so that the motherboard would be nearly upside down a couple years ago, and forced the error to occur which would make me think weight plays more of a role here than heat. I'd rather not force this to occur any further since it could cause data loss. It's scary when your system tells you to Repair XP SP3 and you only have install discs with XP SP2, and you don't feel like having to spend hours trying to get your system back to where it was! Maybe I should create a poll to find out what most people think the culprit is and then test just once, but motherboard resetting would be the biggest job and I am chicken to keep screwing around with everything!

Thanks for the help!

Andrew