Challenges of skinning in a Windows 7 world

[Vice]

I like the idea of customisation but most of the skins for Windows Blinds just look so bad. The problem is that artistically they are overly busy and cluttered and instead of making the interface something you don't notice the themes themselves try to take centre stage. They lack that classy and understated look that many of the msstyle themes posses. I know a few people have said in this thread the words 'out of touch' and I hate to agree as thats a pretty brutal statement to use against someone who is actually in the skinning game but I have to, I think Windows Blinds and its creators are out of touch with what people actually want.

[Xero]

^ I agree in terms of design. However software wise I think they are fine. Seems like they never stepped up their game like Microsoft did with Aero. I can't speak for everyone but I think people want smaller, cleaner, sharper, softer colours, no crazy animals crawling over controls or giant start orbs. Hate to say it, but more mac-like. A good balance of nice effects without sacrifice.

If someone actually reads through all of this post I commend them.

Took awhile but I did. You can rest easy ;)

[petrossa]

I like the idea of customisation but most of the skins for Windows Blinds just look so bad. The problem is that artistically they are overly busy and cluttered and instead of making the interface something you don't notice the themes themselves try to take centre stage. They lack that classy and understated look that many of the msstyle themes posses. I know a few people have said in this thread the words 'out of touch' and I hate to agree as thats a pretty brutal statement to use against someone who is actually in the skinning game but I have to, I think Windows Blinds and its creators are out of touch with what people actually want.

As a stardock progs user since OS/2 windowblinds has always pleased me very much, and i must say the W7 version is surely a good product. There are skins to everyones taste. Some like them bloated, some like them minimalistic, some like them artistic.

I go for just whatever pleases at the time my mood is in. I might stick to one skin for months, or change it every few days. I have noticed over the years i tend to like a skin and keep it till it looses its luster due to having seen to often, and than change to another.

I think Aero is about the most simplistic, bland, uneventful skin around. It's like a pinstripe business suit.

And since skinning is a niche market anyway, being able to kepe WB going for all those years must mean either brad is a philanthrope or mactually makes enough money off it to keep it going.

If its the later it means WB has a sizeable part of the skinningmarket, the market being a niche.

[Island Dog]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The community had to bring this all up to Stardock for your team to do something about it. Granted, you resolved the issue, but if you are going to charge for themes, there needs to be a higher standard, especially for Master Skinners.

I don't think you understand about the Master Skinner program. They are not paid by Stardock for the skins. They have gained a title and as a "perk", are allowed to sell skins on WinCustomize.

[Xilo]

I think Aero is about the most simplistic, bland, uneventful skin around. It's like a pinstripe business suit.

Can never go wrong with a pinstripe suit. They are pure class. :D

[HawkMan]

The reason that Microsoft receive a small percentage of actionable feedback from their beta testers is because practically everything that gets submitted gets put into the "Won't Fix" category, or just gets completely ignored. I filed a bug about how unstable and crashy the nVidia raid drivers are, and having looked around google it seems loads of people have the same problem, as nVidia's raid drivers frankly suck, yet they ignored me and the drivers still made it into the final release.

As for the rest of this thread, I mainly stay out of it because I just use the standard Windows 7 theme as I find it looks nice enough for my use, but its kind of sad to see an Administrator as a person who should be looked up to going on the offensive because people have uncomplimentary opinions about their software. If you want to ban someone for obvious flaming, fair enough, but I haven't really seen anything in this thread that constitutes that.

And what exactly is Microsoft supposed to do about it.

Can never go wrong with a pinstripe suit. They are pure class. :D

Sure beats ghetto punks in hoodies and pants sagging off their knees, wich kinds of sounds like every window blinds skin around, bling may or may not be included :p

[Unrealistic]

I don't think you understand about the Master Skinner program. They are not paid by Stardock for the skins. They have gained a title and as a "perk", are allowed to sell skins on WinCustomize.

Master Skinners are, however, paid to make "Stardock" themes that sell for $4.99. Most of these themes are Aero-derivatives.

[petrossa]

Master Skinners are, however, paid to make "Stardock" themes that sell for $4.99. Most of these themes are Aero-derivatives.

Weird, i actually look for non Aero skins because i don't like Aero and found a big supply of those. It must be in the eye of the beholder.

Can never go wrong with a pinstripe suit. They are pure class. :D

True. But since all pinstripes are interchangeable the point of skinning Aero is somewhat moot. It beats Windows 3 any day, sure; Classy, sure. But classy does not mean original, striking, artistic. It means conforming to the largest common denominator. 1 size fits all approach.

And Aero is not my size. Must mean i lack class, but i don't see that as negative. I see that as having my own taste unrelated to whatever is the taste of the masses.

To each his own. Some like to blend in, i like to blend out.

[Island Dog]

Master Skinners are, however, paid to make "Stardock" themes that sell for $4.99. Most of these themes are Aero-derivatives.

No, they are making WindowBlinds themes that they sell through WinCustomize. They are not paid from their sales. That is a big difference than what was implied before.

Stardock has their own designers that make premium skins that are included with WB, given out to subscribers, etc.

[petrossa]

Stardock has their own designers that make premium skins that are included with WB, given out to subscribers, etc.

And quite good ones too but way to rare? :cry:

[Unrealistic]

Stardock has their own designers that make premium skins that are included with WB, given out to subscribers, etc.

Some of those designers are Master Skinners. :). I won't link you to themes I know were created by Master Skinners however, but I know what I am talking about.

[Shaun N.]

Skinning for Windows 7 won't be ANYWHERE near as needed as it was in XP as its decent by default. The pastel blue and green was too childish for most

P.S I lol'd my ass off with your win Unrealistic

[Xero]

Some of those designers are Master Skinners. :). I won't link you to themes I know were created by Master Skinners however, but I know what I am talking about.

Thats Island Dog man, he clearly knows more than the rest of us ;) Besides, last time I checked Stardock didn't have many in-house designers left..

December 9, 2009 - New Masterskin

November 13, 2009 - New Masterskin

March 4, 2009 - New Masterskin

January 21, 2009 - New Masterskin

January 13, 2009 - New Masterskin

A years worth of Masterskin icon packs, $25. A years worth of originality, priceless ;)

December 9, 2009 - New WB Masterskin

I'm sure there are more but I think you get the picture.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Xero

[Unrealistic]

Most of those are IP, not what I was referring to. There are a good deal of Master Skins out though and to be perfectly honest, a lot of them are pretty good...just not perfect, and each Master Skinner has their own preferences. And yes, I'm sure Island Dog knows more than myself, but I assure you I know correct in what I have said.

http://stardockdesign.wincustomize.com/skins.aspx

This is what I am talking about. I'm not going to say all of these, but some of these ARE created by Master Skinners, on behalf of Stardock. In my personal opinion, I hate every one of them and I'd like to know who designed some of them, heh. That is of course a separate discussion.

Another thing I forgot to bring up, that I would like to know.... At Wincustomize there was a discussion about possibly adding huge watermarks to "public" versions of these Master Skins, so people could actually get a feel for how they work in real life. A change would be needed on Skin Studio, but I think it would be a decent idea. Only problem I see with it is, some people would realize it is not their cup of tea, and it could have the adverse effect of lowering sales.

This brings me to another issue I have with some Master Skins. I wish they would stop branding them with their websites/logos. This includes having "Stardock" plastered all over the theme. If I'm going to pay $4.99 for a theme, I don't want advertising all throughout the theme.

[Phantom Helix]

Wow, Brad we once had a discussion on WC forums, long ago can't expect you to recall it, however it was about merging functionality from other Stardock software into WB, such as the WindowFX and CursorFX (Or CursorXP as it was at the time)

I still think that would be a good idea, that extra functionality could be removed or disabled in a free "Lite" version of WB and skinners could add things directly to their skins with those features, not in the skin-file itself but a set of side parameters, sorta like ID3 tag with instructions to be carried out by the "Extra" features of the program.

But I honestly think you guys really need to get into Mac, I have dreamed for years that Stardock would grace Mac users with its ability to add to an OS.

Now please don't scream down my back about what i've said, never even intended to get a response just adding my opinion.

I agree with 90% of what you set out to say with the OP, but I have lost some of my interest in Object Desktop, i've been a customer for a long time coming back again and again when my subscription runs out.

The last two times I have renewed though all I have really gotten is updated apps, skins really have not got me interest enough for quite some time, not even the master skins of which I own quite a lot but I have Moved to Windows 7 and most of those skins do not work now and the new ones that do don't thrill me.

I have since installed the VS Dynamic Black by DjabyTown from Deviant Art because I Like Light on Dark rather than dark on light and this VS is a Masterpiece that Imo no WB skin can match.

The closest one I can think of is the original Blackcomb WB skin.

I like the new features of WB7 but it is weird that i really no longer feel the need and that truly saddens me.

anyway thats my 2 cents

[petrossa]

Wow, Brad we once had a discussion on WC forums, long ago can't expect you to recall it, however it was about merging functionality from other Stardock software into WB, such as the WindowFX and CursorFX (Or CursorXP as it was at the time)

That is what MyColors meant to do isn't it?

[Phantom Helix]

MyColors as a stand alone is like a custom version of theme manager without the need for the main apps installed and without alot of the functions.

I still think that that most if not all of Stardock's Theme or UI targeted apps could be literally merged into one single app, from a sales standpoint that may not be a great idea but it could simplify a lot on the programming end

[HawkMan]

Most of those are IP, not what I was referring to. There are a good deal of Master Skins out though and to be perfectly honest, a lot of them are pretty good...just not perfect, and each Master Skinner has their own preferences. And yes, I'm sure Island Dog knows more than myself, but I assure you I know correct in what I have said.

Actually all of them are I believe, and his point was that they where all the same IP with slight recoloring, all for the same price. Hence his "originality" comment :p

But then again, after checking the themes on that page, well I checked 3, 2 of them (frost and midnight) are also pretty much the same theme, but with different colors, wich is weird since both windows and WB support recoloring and they are pretty much aero with rounded taskbar ends... and you can already do the same recoloring and transparency change naturally in windows own theme manager.

The other one, camouflage is one of those typical WB skins where the idea apparently is to make the skin look as crowded and packed as possibly. some of them look "cool" but ultimately they're completely unusable. But I guess it's what sells to the teen crowd.

Edited December 19, 2009 by HawkMan

[petrossa]

Actually all of them are I believe, and his point was that they where all the same IP with slight recoloring, all for the same price. Hence his "originality" comment :p

But then again, after checking the themes on that page, well I checked 3, 2 of them (frost and midnight) are also pretty much the same theme, but with different colors, wich is weird since both windows and WB support recoloring and they are pretty much aero with rounded taskbar ends... and you can already do the same recoloring and transparency change naturally in windows own theme manager.

The other one, camouflage is one of those typical WB skins where the idea apparently is to make the skin look as crowded and packed as possibly. some of them look "cool" but ultimately they're completely unusable. But I guess it's what sells to the teen crowd.

True for the last part. But then again many amateur skinners are young people.

I found some quite pleasing (to me) skins, Melture and Pantheon for example are nicely done.

[Unrealistic]

But I honestly think you guys really need to get into Mac, I have dreamed for years that Stardock would grace Mac users with its ability to add to an OS.

Yes! We can dream....

[Island Dog]

Some of those designers are Master Skinners. :) . I won't link you to themes I know were created by Master Skinners however, but I know what I am talking about.

Yes, but they are contracted to create the skins, that is not what the Master skin program is mostly for. The skins Xero listed are actually MyColors skins that are sold as Master skins separately for WB users who don't want/need to purchase the entire MyColor theme. The point being, Master skinners and in-house skins are two different things regardless of *who* creates them.

I still think that that most if not all of Stardock's Theme or UI targeted apps could be literally merged into one single app, from a sales standpoint that may not be a great idea but it could simplify a lot on the programming end

I think Theme Manager will be closest thing to that.

[»X«]

What would be typical of me would be to ban your account for being an ass.

Repeatedly calling me out of touch and then adding how "typical" it is for me not to respond to his points are pretty insulting and I don't see any reason to tolerate it on my own site.

I just don't like it getting personal.

And another person loses posting privileges for a day.

You want to know my biggest problem with all this? That every member who reads this thread won't complain to Neobond (not that anything would get done) about you disgusting attitude. As an admin on this site, surely you have to rise above comments you deem as petty or personal. But to threaten people with their account being restricted/banned or whatever because they don't agree with your views? Seriously?

You have such a thin skin, and its ok for you to call other people an ass? Didn't know that.

Windowblinds is your baby and of course you want to defend it, sometimes blindly.

I wonder if my account will be modified in someway for saying this. Frankly I don't care because if this has what Neowin has come to, then so be it. And the fact you own 1/3 of it means your part of the problem.

Oh and back on topic? No thanks, don't use WB, never will and don't care either way.

Come the revolution, you will be first up against the wall.

All the best.

[Frogboy Administrators]

Master Skinners are, however, paid to make "Stardock" themes that sell for $4.99. Most of these themes are Aero-derivatives.

Master skinners are paid by people who buy their skins. They make the skins that they think people are willing to pay for.

[Frogboy Administrators]

You want to know my biggest problem with all this? That every member who reads this thread won't complain to Neobond (not that anything would get done) about you disgusting attitude.

My "disgusting" attitude has been here for almost 9 years now, 8 of which I've been either an admin or moderator.

That same "disgusting" attitude involves trying to have conversations with people without them getting into personal insults. I make no claims not to respond in kind (which you conveniently left out what I was responding).

As an admin on this site, surely you have to rise above comments you deem as petty or personal.

No, actually I don't. If you want to run a site where people are free to insult you with "petty" or "personal" comments then by all means, have at it. I, however, am not inclined to do so.

But to threaten people with their account being restricted/banned or whatever because they don't agree with your views? Seriously?

First off, I don't care if someone agrees with my views or not. However, *personal* attacks are obviously against the rules.

The rules of the site ARE our views - do not personally attack people, particular an admin.

You have such a thin skin, and its ok for you to call other people an ass? Didn't know that.

Fine. I have a thin skin. And while I agree I shouldn't have responded to being attacked with one of my own, I have never made any claim or promise that this was a level playing field.

I wonder if my account will be modified in someway for saying this. Frankly I don't care because if this has what Neowin has come to, then so be it. And the fact you own 1/3 of it means your part of the problem.

Yes, your account will be modified because of what you wrote next:

Come the revolution, you will be first up against the wall.

[Winswy]

Sure are a lot of people complaining about Premium \ Master Windowblinds, with the usual 'bulky' or 'outdated' comments about them, honestly the same adjectives used over and over without proper criticism gets old.

I sure would like to know what people expect exactly, IMO, when it comes to 'usable' OS type skins, most great ideas have been done and in some cases, redone and some just flat out, overdone.

The UI has evolved in such a way that any skins with a border of over 1 pixel is considered bulky, Folks should realize, that taking a rectangle which is what we have to work with and making it look different, and fresh and original with wow factor, isn't easy , anything else, any other variation of the rectangle is 'bulky and unusable'

Any larger bevel \ border than 1 pixel is 'bulky and ugly' yea, I get it :rolleyes: Problem is, being restricted to a single pixel bevel on the same shape over and over leaves very little wiggle room for creativity... theme.. after theme.

Yeah I get it, and in fact to an extent, I agree, I also know that quite a few of the skins I have done, Mikeb and a few other are very streamlined, very slim and in most cases quite original, not sure what skins are the Aero derivatives people are referring to other than the Aero clones that were specifically designed to mimic Aero but with a different flavor as Vista was becoming more popular.

I've seen most of the msstyles, floating around right now, few are anything close to impressive, in fact... none... If anyone wants to point me to something that is any better than some of teh better WB's on Wincustomize I'll have a look but for the most part, again, imo, they are no better.

Also.. keep in mind the excruciating skinning restrictions Vista and more recently.. 7 has put on skinning the OS.

So, I ask again, what IS it that you want in a WB, what do Master skinners have to produce to get a fair shake around here ? What exactly do you expect\want? I wonder if some people even know.

btw, unrealistic, altho I know a few do, which is their choice, I don't brand my skins. If someone is paying for something, it shouldn't be branded in anyway imo.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Winswy