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C++ or C# or Java for a beginner ?


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Ok , for you to get the whole picture , i'm 19 and not a computer science student but i love programming and i'm planning to learn it by myself and make a career of it .

But i don't know what language to learn , C++ or C# or Jave.. C# and Java seem to be the dominant languages when comes to programming career and industry in my country especially C# , but as you will tell me C++ is a huge language with enormous capabilities more than C# and Java , but i don't want to wast time learning C++ when i'm sure i will end up working as C#/Java programmer !

NOTE : I know some C++ , from the basics to pointers and structures ... never got into OOP ..so i think i've not started learning C++ yet.

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I suggest you to learn C before C++, C#. C is the basis: it's quite simple but very powerfull. Then you'll have the base to learn C++ or the others, which are much more complicated, but based on C.

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  On 05/03/2010 at 10:44, Heartripper said:

I suggest you to learn C before C++, C#. C is the basis: it's quite simple but very powerfull. Then you'll have the base to learn C++ or the others, which are much more complicated, but based on C.

I wouldn't start with C or C++ .. way too confusing or overwhelming.

I started with scripting languages like Perl and PHP who are loosly typed (you'll learn about that later).

After that I started with Visual Basic and Delphi. Both are pretty much dead.

Later I got VB.net and Java. VB.net isn't really worth your time. It does the same things C# does (both .NET after all) but C# is better / makes more sense in a object-oriented way.

Your choice lies mostly between Java and C#. Both are languages that you can pick up faily quickly.

The advantage of C# is that is can compile to a package that doesn't has specific runtime requirements where as Java needs Java installed on every user's PC to run it.

Then again .. Java is multiplatform.

C isn't really an starting option these days as they trouble you too much with stuff like memory management.

Java and C# take the headache away whilst C enforces it (the headache I mean).

As a non-computer sience student I'd say go down either the Java or C# side of things.

Both have their ups and downs. Targetting mostly windows? --> C#

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I learnt basic C# at University. The reason our lecturer gave us was that, because there wasn't enough time to cover everything that a language could do, C# was the best to start with because it would give us an understanding of structure. After University, we could teach ourselves a language like C++ and find it much easier to understand. I accepted this idea, since before University I had tried to teach myself C++ and got lost along the way, whereas with C# it seemed to make much more sense.

C# is still quite a powerful language. If memory serves, programs like Google Earth are programmed in C#.

I would recommend starting with C#.

EDIT: Maybe it was NASA's World Wind rather than Google Earth that is programmed in C#. I'm not sure anymore.

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Most programming projects (regardless of if they use C++, C# or Java) is object-oriented. For that reason I would recommend an object-oriented langauge, and so not recommend C.

You might love programming, but what do you want to program? I'd sit down and think about what types of things you want to build before picking a language. i.e. web sites, desktop apps, apps that run in web pages, games, mobile apps, or something else? This will have a bigger effect on what language you should learn.

Of those you suggested I'd recommend Java. But the other two are both excellent choices.

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  On 05/03/2010 at 11:00, MMaster23 said:

The advantage of C# is that is can compile to a package that doesn't has specific runtime requirements where as Java needs Java installed on every user's PC to run it.

C# (and anything .net) require the .net framework to be installed, in the same way that Java requires the JRE.

Both are good languages, I used to hate Java as it was very slow, but over the recent years it has become a LOT better. At the end of the day, both languages are very similar, so it really comes down to personal choice, maybe look at which you can more easily find a book on to get you started?

The one suggestion I would make, while Visual Studio (and Express editions) have a good IDE for building C# GUIs, I have yet to find a good simple drag-and-drop interface for building GUIs in Java, so if you plan to be working on apps with a GUI, you may find C# a better place to start until you get used to the type of code you need to write for that kind of thing (and no, using an IDE to create a GUI with drag-and-drop isn't cheating :p)

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This is brought up every once in a while:

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/866760-a-few-questions-regarding-c-c%23/

I suggest to stay away from C++ until you are comfortable with the basic concepts of OO programming: basic data types, expressions, statements, loops, functions, classes, objects, inheritance, generics, iterators, etc. C++ has a lot of overhead which doesn't let you focus on these concepts as well as better languages like C# or Java.

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  On 05/03/2010 at 16:00, Dr_Asik said:

:laugh: I was thinking about that same topic when I saw this one pop up. Perhaps someone should merge these topics.

Anyway, I'll repost what I said in that topic:

  Quote
You know, I've seen this topic pop up a lot here and other places. And I've come to the conclusion, it really doesn't matter. As long as you go on and learn more about programming, I don't think your first language is going to affect you all that much. Both have their pros and cons and one may solve a specific problem better than the other, but at the end of the day, it really won't matter which one you choose.
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I suggest Java. Java was originally created to be an improvement to C++, as the creator was frustrated with C++ (don't ask me why, never programmed on that). Once you're good in Java, the transition to C# will be easy as much of the code you learn in Java is applicable to C# with some minor differences. There's even a book about it.

Hope this helps

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  On 05/03/2010 at 10:39, smokn said:

Ok , for you to get the whole picture , i'm 19 and not a computer science student but i love programming and i'm planning to learn it by myself and make a career of it .

But i don't know what language to learn , C++ or C# or Jave.. C# and Java seem to be the dominant languages when comes to programming career and industry in my country especially C# , but as you will tell me C++ is a huge language with enormous capabilities more than C# and Java , but i don't want to wast time learning C++ when i'm sure i will end up working as C#/Java programmer !

NOTE : I know some C++ , from the basics to pointers and structures ... never got into OOP ..so i think i've not started learning C++ yet.

I honestly would begin with C++, it gives a good foundation and teaches good princinpals, logic and good tight coding from the start, rather than some loosely typed language such as PHP. Having done so myself, I now find it easy to pick up pretty much any language, and have taught myself C#, .NET, Visual Basic, Javascript and PHP.

TBH, Avoid Java, I don't [in my personal opinion] think it's a great language.

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  On 05/03/2010 at 12:00, DaveLegg said:

The one suggestion I would make, while Visual Studio (and Express editions) have a good IDE for building C# GUIs, I have yet to find a good simple drag-and-drop interface for building GUIs in Java, so if you plan to be working on apps with a GUI, you may find C# a better place to start until you get used to the type of code you need to write for that kind of thing (and no, using an IDE to create a GUI with drag-and-drop isn't cheating :p)

I find the Netbeans GUI editor to be suitable for my needs. Perhaps you can give it a try? I'm not really a GUI developer though, so I don't know if it's good for advanced features.

  On 23/03/2010 at 21:09, Owenw said:

TBH, Avoid Java, I don't [in my personal opinion] think it's a great language.

I like it when people give their opinion and give arguments. Care to give yours? :)

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I would say C# too. I learned some C and C++ in Uni, and self taught C# (both in asp.net and winforms) which I now use for my job.

Another reason for C# or any .net language in general is, there really isn't a better IDE than Visual Studio. 2010 (currently available in RC) just takes it a whole new level.

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I'm on the side of the fence that thinks you should start with C or C++ until you get a few basics down. It teaches you a base language which is compatible with all computer systems, Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. C# will do a lot of things FOR you, and especially with current versions of Visual Studio and code completion, it just becomes easy. Someone with no programming experience can sit down and make an application in C# without too much work, and that teaches you to be lazy. If it were me, I'd learn the very bare basics of C, then immediately move to C++. C++ isn't so much a different language than C, but rather an improvement of the existing language. C# on the other hand is a whole new system. It's easy to move on to C# once you have the basics of C or C++, so there's no worry about having to learn anything too difficult if you want to do .NET developing in the future.

When I started programming, I started in C++ in my first year of CS, and stuck with that through 3 years of high school, then later started to pick up C# on my own to a point where I held a position developing software for medical billing using ASP.NET and C#, just to give you an idea of how easy it is to move on to C# later.

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C++ is taught for CS degrees because it's a system programming language and it compiles directly to ASM, two things usually taught right after (operating systems and computer architecture -> assembly language), so the student can make the connection more easily. But you have assignements, a good textbook, notes and classes where you can ask questions; you have support from teachers, colleagues, etc., and you need them, because C++ is hard as hell, and everything in it is a pitfall. And what was the best program you made in that first C++ semester? Some console application that demonstrates polymorphism, or how you could avoid memory leaks with smart pointers? I thought so. With the same level of dedication, in Python, by that time you could probably have a functional Tetris and you would start thinking about implementing AI or multiplayer. That would not fit a CS degree, indeed; but think of the self-teaching rookie at home. I know learning C++ was a frustrating experience on many levels at uni, with very little results at the end, and what got me interested in programming initially was much more accessible tools such as Visual Basic.

In short, I think C++ is too much to ask a self-teaching non-programmer to learn. Too few satisfying results, too much fussing about, and high chances of quitting due to frustration and incomprehension.

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  On 24/03/2010 at 01:28, chAos972 said:

So far we've been taught C (not C++) Java, Python, Haskell and MIPS assembly at uni but I've been really wanting to get into C#. Does anyone know of a good, recent resource for that? A lot of the tutorials I found are really dated.

http://www.functionx.com/csharp/Lesson01.htm
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  On 24/03/2010 at 01:24, Dr_Asik said:

C++ is taught for CS degrees because it's a system programming language and it compiles directly to ASM, two things usually taught right after (operating systems and computer architecture -> assembly language), so the student can make the connection more easily. But you have assignements, a good textbook, notes and classes where you can ask questions; you have support from teachers, colleagues, etc., and you need them, because C++ is hard as hell, and everything in it is a pitfall. And what was the best program you made in that first C++ semester? Some console application that demonstrates polymorphism, or how you could avoid memory leaks with smart pointers? I thought so. With the same level of dedication, in Python, by that time you could probably have a functional Tetris and you would start thinking about implementing AI or multiplayer. That would not fit a CS degree, indeed; but think of the self-teaching rookie at home. I know learning C++ was a frustrating experience on many levels at uni, with very little results at the end, and what got me interested in programming initially was much more accessible tools such as Visual Basic.

At my uni they stopped teaching assembly because too many people failed. C++ wasn't taught, but C was. But it only took up one third of an optional second year module (covering allocating memory, and working with pointers and strings). Plenty of universities chose to do this for the above reason, so people can learn to build software rather then using languages.

  On 24/03/2010 at 01:24, Dr_Asik said:

In short, I think C++ is too much to ask a self-teaching non-programmer to learn. Too few satisfying results, too much fussing about, and high chances of quitting due to frustration and incomprehension.

My brothers first language was C++ and he was self taught. He is now a professional web developer. There are plenty of other people online who have learnt C++ at home. I think what it really comes down to is learning to make software. I've seen plenty of terrible self-taught Java programmers.

People always see this as a big defining topic, what language to learn first. It doesn't really matter because languages don't make good applications, good software engineers do. I think people should think less about what language features are available and more about what they can do with the language, or more typically what the language is aimed for (i.e. people don't typically use PHP for desktop apps, or C++ for websites). Then think about what features the languages provide which will save me time. Like GUI building tools and garbage collection.

  • 0
  On 24/03/2010 at 19:02, StudioFortress said:

At my uni they stopped teaching assembly because too many people failed.

That's sad. Assembly makes you realise so many things about how computers work and why C is designed the way it is.
  Quote
My brothers first language was C++ and he was self taught. He is now a professional web developer.
My hat's off to your brother. No doubt the most dedicated can pull it off, but they're making their lives unnecessarily miserable. Especially if you don't know in what branch you're going to specialize (C++ is of hardly any use in web development, for instance).
  Quote
People always see this as a big defining topic, what language to learn first. It doesn't really matter because languages don't make good applications, good software engineers do.
I kinda agree, but I would find it stupid to get discouraged early by choosing one of the most difficult languages right away. C++ makes it hard to learn the basics of programming because of its many intricacies. In order to learn the basics of object-orientation, for instance, you have to learn heap vs stack allocation, header vs source files, declaration vs implementation, pointer vs reference vs object, and how to make sense of seemingly random compiler and linker errors. Then you have protected and private inheritance, friend classes and functions, virtual inheritance, virtual destructors, etc. This is a huge amount of gratuitous overhead from the perspective of a beginner.
  • 0

Too much baggage with C and C++ the minute you want to go and make something interesting. It's not so much the language but the total mess of libraries and APIs around that's the problem.

C# is a good choice.

If you want to go down the C++ path, a good API/framework is important otherwise you'll just put yourself off. Something like QT or wxWidgets are pretty good. Stay clear of Microsoft's MFC and their diabolically complex COM as long as you can.

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  On 24/03/2010 at 23:57, Dr_Asik said:
Especially if you don't know in what branch you're going to specialize (C++ is of hardly any use in web development, for instance).

I agree and disagree. Yes in the sense that most web developers don't use C++. But there are so many concepts which are typically always present like if statements, functions, some form of modules, loops, variables, operator precedence (or the lack of it for some languages), how to write clean code and some techniques on how to structure software. Because learning one will never hold you back in the other, it just won't propell you as much in a particular domain of work.

  • 0
  On 25/03/2010 at 00:39, StudioFortress said:
But there are so many concepts which are typically always present like if statements, functions, some form of modules, loops, variables, operator precedence (or the lack of it for some languages), how to write clean code and some techniques on how to structure software.
All those can be learned much faster in most other modern programming languages.

For example:

for-each loop in C++:

for ([type of the collection]::iterator [or const_iterator] it = [collection].begin(); it != [collection].end(); ++it) {
    // do stuff - don't forget you need to dereference "it" to access the element - but it's not actually a pointer!
}

for-each loop in Python:

for element in [collection]:
    // do stuff

Creating a new type in C++ (typically):

[MyType.h]
#ifndef MY_TYPE_H
#define MY_TYPE_H

class MyType {
     void method1();
 /// blabla
};

#endif

[MyType.cpp]
#include MyType.h

void MyType::method1() {
    /// implement method
}

And don't forget to include the header where you need to use it!

Creating a new type in C#:

[MyType.cs]
class MyType {
     void method1() {
          // implement method
     }
}

Same concepts, different amounts of pain. :)

  • 0
  On 25/03/2010 at 00:39, StudioFortress said:

But there are so many concepts which are typically always present like if statements, functions, some form of modules, loops, variables, operator precedence (or the lack of it for some languages), how to write clean code and some techniques on how to structure software.

With the obscurity of C++, it's almost impossible for beginners (and professionals) to write clean and structured code.

Pointers, headers, mixing C and C++ code styles and libraries, adhoc object oriented implementation, limited libraries, managing memory... All of these beginners and professionals alike often struggle with. All of these prevent writing clean code and structuring software well. Someone learning a language shouldn't have to be hung up on technicalities due to C++'s adhoc additions to C. Even Stroustrup (the guy who created it) admits C++ is a mess. He was one of my professors at college. He often complained about how he wish he did things differently with the language.

It also has a very low reward vs effort ratio. In Perl/Python/Ruby or C#/Java, you can write useful programs, have fun doing it and seeing it work, and learn programming concepts and techniques without being bogged down by nonsense.

It is definitely good to know well though. Knowing C and C++ well can land you quite a lot of good jobs, but it really isn't a good language to learn for a beginner.

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