GH Moderation: The concept of "Home Turf"

[WastedJoker]

Down with XBOX!!! :angry:

Down with PS3!!! :angry:

:p

[Sethos]

Why not force members with a history of conflicts on each others ignore list and enforce it; no speaking or contacting each other. That means we won't have to tread lightly all of a sudden in sub-forums for consoles we actually own

and we might bring down all the bickering and pointless arguments. I mean, this is for the 'heavy hitter' cases so to speak, not something that should be flung around.

[Piggy]

So is this specific forum a de-militarized zone? Can I climb on top of the PS3 forum and snipe 360 posts? :p

[Spookie]

Technically you would have to troll the Xbox 360 Forums twice as much as the Playstation 3 ones.

Ugh, sounds like more work! :p

Yeah, that a good idea too but there are technical reasons why this is difficult. We already have a Restricted (Gamers) Mask and, in theory, we could create one for every subforum but this adds to the complexity of the administration.

It may well do that but how many minutes of the day do you think you are going to loose with this rather open ended system? I'm all for cleaning up neowin, because if we're being honest. The GH has been rather stagnant of new members for some time. The last new member we received in here, from what I remember, was back in Nov? Since then the forum has slowly started to turn in to what feels like a selective RSS news feed with occasional official topics. It's kind of depressing flicking between GAF and here.

Now while I believe this is somewhat the fault so some inconsistent moderation- I'm still on 0% and I believe there have been some moments in the past when I've been a right dick and deserved a warning. As well as some people on here who should have been banned years ago. We go to the other end of the spectrum where Andrew and I will start being abrasive with each other, always with a wink and a nod. Then we refresh the page and see "Thread Cleaned".

Now it's not fair to blame this all on the mods. We don't expect you to know everyones traits and the cliques. A community is only as good as the sum of it's parts and in that respect we've been a bit limp. We're not exactly friendly to junior members and it all goes a bit deliverance in here when we see someone new. It goes to my previous points before, often we can go for a week with only very flame bait news posts on the front page and bumped official threads which aren't exactly easy to jump in to for new members. With opinions already made and a full debate underway on the pros and cons of game mechanics.

I know I've gone off on a MASSIVE tangent. But what I'm trying to say in around about way is: Unless we agree to some massive foundation shaking changes-old habits will continue to surface and die hard. We could at least do with limiting certain members to only reply to threads in sub forums. As I'm often seeing some truly bonfire-esq news links being posted in Microsoft/Sony/Ninty sub forums which only need a spark before the thing needs an entire fire crew to put out.

Disclaimer: I'm not singling this post out to attack anyone. It's critical of everyone, even my self! So don't take it personally.

edit: Expanded on a few points.

[Emn1ty]

So wait... then what about news? Negative PS3 news goes into the 360 section? This is just promoting anti-X console behavior rather than having these just segregated subjects. On top of it this will confuse newer members. I don't like this at all.

[Corris Veteran]

Sounds like an all right idea, if it works out in the end and doesn't just stifle perfectly valid opinions, I don't even like coming in here most of the time because some people can't get along some of the time.

Just because people have a preference doesn't mean they automatically hate on a different platform, and as I have always said, its not about what is being said, but the way some people go around with their opinions assuming they are right, but also knowingly writing something that will start a conflict with some members.

You can get a point across just as well but by writing it respectfully towards others.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

Edit- Taken To PM Then

[Astra.Xtreme]

This "subliminally" just suggests that somebody not on their "own turf" knows nothing about what they are discussing. Hence giving people on that "home turf" a reason to jump down their throat and discard their opinion

Yeah I know it's not meant to be that way, but everybody here KNOWS that's how it will be.

Segregation is never a good thing... There is A LOT more bad that can come of this than good.

[Spookie]

Edit: Taken to PM

[Emn1ty]

@Escelade_GT: I agree completely. This will just make "territory" for both sides and basically separate the two communities in a way that makes their own forum "more important" than the other. Anything post in there that is negative in the slightest of ways will be jumped on and flamed because they can be less wary" in their "home turf".

[Emn1ty]

Fair enough, but can you take out the quote? I don't want to de-rail the thread on the second page. ty :)

No problem. And I realized I spelled wright wrong, lol.

[Shadrack]

As much as you are entitled to your own opinion, i entirely disagree with your logic. It allows for biased, one-sided views and that is not good for any debate. It almost renders Neowin's forums entirely pointless.

For Example; A Playstation owner complains about the Other OS Fiasco. Where shall i go now?

Another Example; A Guest or member wishes to see the opinions of others on for example 'An Xbox 360'. Where will this person go? To the Xbox 360 forum. On visiting the Xbox 360 Neowin Forum he discovers that there is no issues with the console, nobody dislikes it and the prices are perfect.

I agree with what you are saying in principle, but in practice, Fred Derf has the right idea.

The same should be applied to the Apple, Windows, and Linux forums as well IMO.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

...

We go to the other end of the spectrum where Andrew and I will start being abrasive with each other, always with a wink and a nod. Then we refresh the page and see "Thread Cleaned".

...

A lot of things appear differently to people out of the loop. Unless those friendly jibes between buddies are clearly marked with emoticons or something similar we'll tend to clean them out so as to not give other members the wrong idea. It would be easy for casual readers to think that we're allowing personal attacks and that may encourage them to post their own personal attacks on members who they are not on friendly terms with.

So wait... then what about news? Negative PS3 news goes into the 360 section? This is just promoting anti-X console behavior rather than having these just segregated subjects. On top of it this will confuse newer members. I don't like this at all.

News about a PS3 (negative or not) should go in the Sony Console setting. Just be advised that there will be a lower threshold of trolling allowed so keep it respectful.

The same should be applied to the Apple, Windows, and Linux forums as well IMO.

I invoked the Home Turf rule in this thread just prior to me writing up this thread:

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/896168-this-is-outrageous-and-simply-out-of-order/page__view__findpost__p__592555054

[BajiRav]

I am completely confused about the home turf concept.. I only own an Xbox 360 and my GH history probably has ample proof to show that. In GH, I post mostly in Xbox 360 section with occasional posts under Sony/Main GH. Does this make 360 as my Home turf? If I criticize anything in PS3 section, am I immediately up for a warn?

News about a PS3 (negative or not) should go in the Sony Console setting. Just be advised that there will be a lower threshold of trolling allowed so keep it respectful.

Just to clarify my own understanding - if I criticize Sony in PS3 section (360 being my Home turf) - such as in recent case of the PS3 Move ad, does that automatically make me borderline troll?

p.s. on a lighter note :p when do we start playing CTF and Territories around here?

[thechronic]

Ugh, sounds like more work!

They don't make trolls like they used to :p

[Tech Star]

Well, Neowin was not designed to be a no-holds-barred survival of the fittest forum (although Gamers Hangout does seem to get like that from time to time). We would like to encourage respectful discussion and as long as people are afraid of starting topics because they might get attacked by the haters then we can't do what we want to do.

A Playstation owner that wants to discuss the Other OS Fiasco could leave their home turf and post in the forum of another console but they would need to be slightly more polite and respectful there then they could get away with at home.

No. :no: Why have two separate discussions about a certain thing in different parts of the forum.

In one forum and topic you have will have *EXAMPLE* Sony fanboys saying that removing OtherOS was a thing that Sony has the right to do and we should just follow what they have done. In the other forum and in a different topic you will have *EXAMPLE* an XBot (XBOX fanboy :) ) going on about how Sony is stupid and why they are the worst company in the world.

This would not work because then if someone goes into the "enemy" teritory and say how they don't like the fact that Sony removed the feature then they will be warnerd/banned for voicing the opinion. This just creates confusion and unnecessary change that is just going to make it more complicated and it removes healthy discussion.

Now, if I was a moderator of the forum, then what I would do is keep the whole forum in check. Bickering back and forth is a GOOD thing! It allows for discussion on a subject that is big and it allows for people to see both sides of the story and what people like and don't like. Where it gets BAD is when members attack each other because of their opinion. I have seen countless of times where AB was being attacked by a couple of other forum members (not going to mention names) because of his opinion. Instead of going through all of this trouble to create "turfs" you should be watching the personal attacks by the forum members because of another persons valid opinion.

[Guest]

Just like to add my thoughts.

I don't think this is a great idea. I don't like the idea of having to know how to use a forum, knowing about the silly little rules that're forum specific instead of global specific. It's not obvious and even if there's a sticky people will overlook it so people not entirely familar will stumble into "enemy territory" so to speak. It also sounds like it'll segreate the community, promoting people to stick to their own camp and not venture to neighboring ones.

Also, I've only got a laptop to game on and it's not exactly a "gaming rig". Where's my "home turf"? Why can't I express my opinions (negative or otherwise) about a particular console and where do I have the most freedom to do that in?

I'm still waiting for GH to get better btw.

[Spookie]

A lot of things appear differently to people out of the loop. Unless those friendly jibes between buddies are clearly marked with emoticons or something similar we'll tend to clean them out so as to not give other members the wrong idea. It would be easy for casual readers to think that we're allowing personal attacks and that may encourage them to post their own personal attacks on members who they are not on friendly terms with.

Fair enough I guess, goes back to my previous point of us making the forum a tad more friendly for new members.

[The Teej]

I like the idea behind this, but the execution isn't to my liking to be honest - it seems like it'll create more animosity between each of the sections' regular members rather then creating universal harmony across all of the boards which should be the main goal. At the end of the day, there's always a clear line between maturely "attacking" a console, disagreeing with a member's opinion of a console and attacking the member him/herself.

As for the line about the burnout rate of GH Mods, I'd be willing to lend a helping hand as I've been in situations where I need to whip a particular section into shape (it was a spamming minefield) and come out alive on other forums - after doing the job for 3 and a half years I'm fairly certain I'm immune to burnout ;) Just leaving it out there for consideration... :)

[Fred Derf Veteran]

No. :no: Why have two separate discussions about a certain thing in different parts of the forum.

In one forum and topic you have will have *EXAMPLE* Sony fanboys saying that removing OtherOS was a thing that Sony has the right to do and we should just follow what they have done. In the other forum and in a different topic you will have *EXAMPLE* an XBot (XBOX fanboy :) ) going on about how Sony is stupid and why they are the worst company in the world.

This would not work because then if someone goes into the "enemy" teritory and say how they don't like the fact that Sony removed the feature then they will be warnerd/banned for voicing the opinion. This just creates confusion and unnecessary change that is just going to make it more complicated and it removes healthy discussion.

Now, if I was a moderator of the forum, then what I would do is keep the whole forum in check. Bickering back and forth is a GOOD thing! It allows for discussion on a subject that is big and it allows for people to see both sides of the story and what people like and don't like. Where it gets BAD is when members attack each other because of their opinion. I have seen countless of times where AB was being attacked by a couple of other forum members (not going to mention names) because of his opinion. Instead of going through all of this trouble to create "turfs" you should be watching the personal attacks by the forum members because of another persons valid opinion.

Maybe I've been confused by this OtherOS example.

Threads primarily about the PS3/PSP should stay in the Sony Console forum. Threads primarily about the Xbox should stay in the Microsoft Console forum. Same with Wiis/DSes and Nintendo.

If someone who is a known supporter of the Xbox wants to start a PS3 thread in the Sony Console they can still do so but with some care that the thread isn't designed to troll and insult PS3 owners (as with everything else, the opposite examples work just as well).

I do NOT want to see two discussions about a Wii system update (one in the Wii forum and an thread in somebody else's home turf that discusses what a mess Nintendo made). If you want to post that the Nintendo upgrade was a mess then go to the Nintendo forum and say that in a respectable way without adding "Haha, you shouldn't have bought such a loser console!" to the end of your post.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

I like the idea behind this, but the execution isn't to my liking to be honest

There are well establishes clichés of "The devil is in the details" and "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" for a reason. It will likely be less drastic than some members reading this thread think it will be. Most members will never notice any difference. It just gives our mods one more tool in their Batman utility belt. If someone is a known crusader who is posting stuff outside of their home turf and it appears to be for the intention of causing trouble then we're going to go after that.

Prior to this we sometimes had situations where we're not sure if people are intentionally trolling or if they are just being blunt and obtuse. This will help make our decision. If they are in their home turf we'll likely assume they are blunt and obtuse and lack social skills. If they are outside their home turf we'll decide that they are doing it for the purpose of annoying other members.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

I like this. (Y)

[The Teej]

There are well establishes clichés of "The devil is in the details" and "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" for a reason. It will likely be less drastic than some members reading this thread think it will be. Most members will never notice any difference. It just gives our mods one more tool in their Batman utility belt. If someone is a known crusader who is posting stuff outside of their home turf and it appears to be for the intention of causing trouble then we're going to go after that.

Prior to this we sometimes had situations where we're not sure if people are intentionally trolling or if they are just being blunt and obtuse. This will help make our decision. If they are in their home turf we'll likely assume they are blunt and obtuse and lack social skills. If they are outside their home turf we'll decide that they are doing it for the purpose of annoying other members.

Okay, fair enough, but what happens when we get mods who don't usually visit the GH and don't always know the cliqs and the regulars of certain groups? For example, my most visited forum according to the stats is the Sony Console section - but if anything I'd say have a particular leaning towards Nintendo, but what would happen if I said something that could be misconstrued as trolling, when it's just me voicing an opinion? I'd say the GH as a whole is "my home turf" rather then one particular section of it - the fact that it's at the very top of my "Favourite Forums" list shows this.

I'm not intentionally trying to go against the grain with this system, I love the fact that you're all trying new initiatives to keep this place better, I'm just worried there are certain points that need to be ironed out/explained in more detail now rather then it all get explained later in a "Surprise! You've got a 20% warn!" PM.

Like you said previously, it's more for the obvious crusaders then someone like me who just enjoys posting here, but I don't fancy being treated differently in one forum over the next because <insert staff member here> believes I have a particular preference for a console and getting slammed in once place but not another when keeping the exact same tone to my posts.

[carmatic]

did you mean 'cloak' instead of 'clock' ?

[Nicholas-c Veteran]

[snip]

Like you said previously, it's more for the obvious crusaders then someone like me who just enjoys posting here, but I don't fancy being treated differently in one forum over the next because <insert staff member here> believes I have a particular preference for a console and getting slammed in once place but not another when keeping the exact same tone to my posts.

Every mod won't know whos alliance falls where, however we all communicate alot and consider things like warnings before hand. At the end of the day we don't want members to troll/flamebait but we do want intelligent discussions going on in GH. Your Sony fans don't tend to have much of a hatred towards each other as towards a member from the Microsoft camp coming along and flaming. That is when the problems arise and we will moderate it carefully. Trust us :)