Putting together home theater

[Master Shake]

I'm currently researching parts for a home theater and I wanted to get some opinions on what I've been looking at pretty hard. Right now I have a Mitsubishi 60" DLP 1080p hdtv, time warner dvr/hdtv tuner through hdmi, PS3 which servers as my bluray player and media center streamed from my pc, wii, and a power conditioner. I'm currently looking at these components:

Sony STR-DA3400ES 7.1 Channel AV Receiver

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-STR-DA3400ES-7-1-Channel-Receiver/dp/B001CSAHKW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266133419&sr=8-1

Definitive Technology ProCinema 600 5.1 Speaker System

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Technology-ProCinema-Speaker-System/dp/B000TDENA6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266133653&sr=8-1

I would add a pair of the speakers used in that speaker set ($145 each) for the rear speakers and get the matching stands or mounts depending on where I end up putting the speakers.

I have read a lot of good things about these speakers but mostly user reviews about the Sony receiver since I haven't seen a lot of professional reviews on it. It's usually $1000 but I found it for $599 which seems like a pretty good deal. I should be able to run all my components through it and then to the tv through hdmi. The GUI on it is supposed to be like XMB on the ps3 and it should have more than enough power for those speakers. i had wanted to replace my hdtv with an LED LCD but I think I'm going to wait a while and see what happens with this 3D stuff that is coming out before I make any decisions.

I should add that I live in an apartment so I'm not looking for a ton of bass, I'm really looking for good sound quality, attractive design and small speakers. I also want a receiver I won't have to upgrade. I think with this setup if I wanted more power or more bass at some point I could add another sub or get a bigger one that matches the other speakers.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

[Master Shake]

I also am looking at the Cambridge Soundworks Newton Theater MC155 (HT166-SE), it is $350 cheaper than the DefTech model I was looking at, has a warmer sound, fuller bass, bipole/dipole mode on the surround speakers as well as being a better match between the sub and satellites and was chosen over the DefTechs by cNet.

http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=ht_systems&item=k1ht155s

Another pair of surrounds for 7.1 are $199.

[goji]

Congrats on playing in the magical world that is HT! If you're not careful you will go broke. Check the "Amazing home theater setup" thread for "inspiration." :p

First off, no matter what you buy receiver wise, there is no guarantee that you will future proof your setup. The AV industry is a beast of profit, just like Hollywood. the current HD era is alive and well, and I wouldn't doubt that a newer codecs and tech will be appearing within the next decade. It happens. But because this occurs doesn't mean your out in the cold.

HDMI isn't really a necessity for HD playback, save for your PS3. As a big HT kinda guy, and on a budget as well, I shopped through AV forums and learned about the gear many posters used, and decided what I needed:

Outboard Amp (a solid amp unless it dies doesn't need replacing ever)

Outboard preamp (decodes audio and video streams - like a receive but w/o the amp)

Multiple component hookups

Multiple fiber optic hookups

PCM decoding

Early 2000's the above was the standard for true HI-FI and HT. The HD era slightly threw a monkey wrench into the system with the added HD audio codecs and HDMI. HD audio can still be streamed off of discs through multi channel analog outputs (DVD-A and SACD), thus negating the "need" of HDMI, unless you have to have it or of course you use a PS3. The point is a brand new receiver isn't necessary. I suggest shopping for used gear for even greater savings on tech released over the last six years which is still good! Obviously research into what type of equipment you want, whether a receiver of separates (amp and pre/amp) is needed.

Personally I'm not a fan of Sony. In my mind their receivers are cheap and they skimp on their amps, which are not truly rated. Sony and a few other big box producers were discovered in the early 00's to have underrated their amps so they could squeeze more bells and whistles into their machines. Audio and video codecs are not free and require licensing fees, so the best place to cut corners has been in the amp; sad. Harmon Kardon on the other hand produces solid machines and I have played with some of their recent receivers and like the sound that was produced with my speakers. For some individuals, like myself, some amps and speakers will match up fine, for others it is an audible match made in hell. It can be very hard to say at times when suggesting speakers and receivers/amps to people because it will ultimately be up to you and your ears. If you don't like it don't buy it. Buyers regret is a B. Keep in mind as well that due to the economy, many GREAT pieces of HT gear (all of it) can be acquired at very cheap prices. eBay and Audiogon.com are great places to look once you know what you want, which is why you asked. (duh!)

Don't worry about 7.1. Its a gimmick. Very few movies fully utilize 7.1. By fully I mean a proper mix, not rear channels matrix-ed to produce a pre-rendered enveloping sound. Focus your money on solid speakers, and a solid amp and you should enjoy. If you purchase a receiver or preamp with 7.1 connections, great! You can always add later, but focusing on the parts of the system rather than the whole will make for a much more informed and enjoyable experience you can appreciate later down the road. Plus great equipment will last a lifetime.

[Master Shake]

GOJI, I would LOVE to have a separate amp and preamp, I just figured it was out of my range. I haven't looked at this kind of stuff in a long time so could you help me out with what to get? I don't even know where to begin. My needs are the same as yours, I'd like video switching and all the codecs necessary for blu-ray to be supported. I would really love to have the quality of separates. The main reason for wanting Sony is the integration but I can always get a Harmony remote or something. It doesn't matter if the units are used or not, if they are I can get more bang for my buck.

[goji]

Well for me the love started with a Best Buy salesman telling my not buy Bose. End of story.

I love Klipsch because of their great sound and amazing electronic efficiency. Horn loaded speakers do not require much power to get loud. With most of their HT and Pro speakers requiring on average 1 watt per 90 decibels of sound, that's not bad at all. (rough estimate) Not bad considering humans can sustain hearing damage at prologued exposure to 120 decibels .

For some however, the horn loaded speakers, while great on paper are to harsh in the upper registry and can be fatiguing to listen to though I personally love'em. The trade out are dome tweeters speakers which are the norm though they may require more power to reach the same level of output as horn loaded speakers. The sound is a bit more laid back and pleasing, though not engaging or alive. Words can only express so much unless you've experienced it. So take a gander at a local Hi-Fi store for the helluva it.

If your running small bookshelves I wouldn't worry to much about truly powering your speakers unless you anticipate cranking up the decibels. If your not, then a simple receiver would be the wise course of action. Harmon Kardon and Denon would be my safe bets, but so would Onkyo (highly rated by many) and Marantz. Pioneer is also a brand, though their elite lineup is where the money is at (price and value).

Figure out what your system will be truly used for. Not some idea three years out but in reality. If your in an apartment, and budget is an issue, be conservative. That doesn't mean frugal; older equipment as stated in the last few years is still GREAT! The economy is in your favor! I would focus, depending on your budget, purchasing a center, two bookshelves and something to power them. That way you can rotate the bookshelves to the rear and purchase towers for your fronts. Depending on how deep the fronts go may be all the bass you need, saving you money on a sub, especially in an apt.

[goji]

Followup on the matter of codecs;

If your receiver has multi channel analog connections (used during the DVD-A SACD era) than you are set for HD audio, providing your HD-DVD played (dead) and Blu Ray player has the outputs. HD audio is nothing more than PCM files packaged nice and neat into a newer container. Initial standards for all HD players required the decoding or de-packaging of the audio files to occur in the player, not the receiver as in the SD DVD era. Because of this, the HD audio streams behaved just like good ole PCM wav files, channeled over their own analog connections to many receivers. Since then however higher end receivers can decode the audio files at the receiver level (not sure if it matters either way), and with an HDMI cable, makes setup and use much easier.

Since you use a PS3, all you need to ensure (which won't be difficult) is that your receiver has at minimum one HDMI input connection for an audio feed. That shouldn't be a problem at all.

[Joel]

HD audio is nothing more than PCM files packaged nice and neat into a newer container.

Not exactly. The possible differences between PCM and Dolby TrueHD, for example, is that the Dolby could have metadata that the PCM track will not have.

[goji]

While true it may not necessarily translate to a degraded loss of the audio experience. I haven't followed the evolution of the codecs in over three years, so I may be wrong on that front.

[Master Shake]

Does anyone have any idea whether the video switching available in current receivers is going to be fully compatible with the upcoming 3d tvs? I've read the PS3 can do 3d in games and blurays over hdmi 1.3 but nothing about receivers. I'm holding off on getting a new hdtv until I see how the 3d ones turn out, it would suck if I got a new receiver with video switching only to find out it's not compatible.

[Joel]

While true it may not necessarily translate to a degraded loss of the audio experience. I haven't followed the evolution of the codecs in over three years, so I may be wrong on that front.

I never said it degraded it, just that it may not be the exact aural replication some people think it is.

[goji]

Does anyone have any idea whether the video switching available in current receivers is going to be fully compatible with the upcoming 3d tvs? I've read the PS3 can do 3d in games and blurays over hdmi 1.3 but nothing about receivers. I'm holding off on getting a new hdtv until I see how the 3d ones turn out, it would suck if I got a new receiver with video switching only to find out it's not compatible.

Probably not.

3d is a new and emerging tech that is no where near mainstream yet. It will start out just as HD-DVD and Blu Ray did - higher end commodities. I wouldn't worry to much about 3D as full market penetration is many years away. The longer you hold out, the longer you deny yourself a HT experience now. Food for thought.

I never said it degraded it, just that it may not be the exact aural replication some people think it is.

Which implies a degree of degradation. I'm not entirely sold on that concept, providing proper connections for both audio and video are met. Meta data shouldn't, in my mind affect anything in theory, though like I said, I haven't followed the industry as close as I used to.

[Joel]

Which implies a degree of degradation. I'm not entirely sold on that concept, providing proper connections for both audio and video are met. Meta data shouldn't, in my mind affect anything in theory, though like I said, I haven't followed the industry as close as I used to.

I don't think you are fully aware of what I'm talking about. It's just extra code with dialog normalisation settings and possibly little channel tweaks. A straight LPCM track goes into something like TrueHD or DTS-HD Master, but with enhancements to the signal, not less of a signal.

[Master Shake]

So confused!! Stop fighting!!

I'm hoping to buy a receiver this weekend. I haven't liked the Denon receivers I've seen, at least the ones in my price range. I like the Pioneer S25 Elite but it's a bit too expensive, the Harman Kardon AVR 3600 is nice also and I'm still looking at a Sony 3400es. The Sony I can get $600 used and actually has very good reviews and ratings, I know people aren't very fond of them and I don't know if it's better because it's an ES model but it appears to be much better than other models they have. I like the Pioneer a lot but it's almost twice as much as the Sony.

I've looked at other speakers but I think the best choice for me is the Cambridge Soundworks HT155-SE, a nice 5.1 set for $450 on sale that has enough power for my apartment.

As for the 3D thing.... I hope it will be compatible with the receivers video switching but who knows. Am I able to get all the codecs streamed to the receiver with the PS3's optical jack? I'm not sure if all the types of multitrack audio that is sent through HMDI can also be sent through optical. That way if I do get a new LCD I can just run the audio to the receiver and the ps3 straight to the tv.

[goji]

Nagh were not fighting. you'd have to go to RWI to see any of that :p

Cambridge is an older audio company and while I haven't auditioned their products directly, I can at least suggest them as I've heard from numerous individuals that they are pretty good. As far as 3d, we are still to early in this tech's infancy. It may be years before it is normalized as a codec standard, or however it is it will be implemented. After-all, it took a few years before the AV market began to think about including HDMI in their products, with Denon leading the charge in the last 2-3 years. However, given the state of modern AVR's, it is possible that if HDMi is to be the conduit, there may be a simple software update that could be transmitted via the internet. Still to many variable to say either way.

Optical jack will allow for SD 5.1 audio (DTS and DD) but not HD. HD tracks in comparison are very large, and optical doesn't have the bandwidth to transmit the signal. Your only two option are multichannel analog or HDMI for HD audio. You'll need two HDMI cables then, one to the AVR and then from there to the TV. There is no issue in directing the video feed to the AVR and then to the TV, especially if you have a reputable and solid unit.

[Joel]

optical doesn't have the bandwidth to transmit the signal.

The reason is that there would be no HDCP, not that optical doesn't have the capacity, or bandwidth, to do it. It's an artificial limitation, imposed first as part of the S/PDIF spec, which was never modified because of the lack of copy-protection. We got HDMI instead.

[Master Shake]

Newegg has a deal for a Polk tower speaker with 3 5 1/4" speakers and a tweeter for $119 . They have very good reviews and a very small footprint which iw something I am looking for. i maybe ever buy four and use two for surrounds since I have a place they will fit in my living room. The matching center is very large though at 7"x19"x9.68" with 2 5.25 woofers. I don't know where I could put this, my tv is in a corner and the bezel is to narrow to set it on, I also couldn't fit it in front of the tv and it has a rear firing port. I plus side to this set is that I wouldn't need a sub in this apartment and also wouldn't have to dish out $100 or so for the stands for the speaker. The negatives are that it will cost more and they they don't have surrounds that can switch between bipole/dipole which I was really wanting.

These are the floor standing Polks, $119 with coupon code

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290017&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL022310&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL022310--HomeAudioSpeakers-_-L0I-_-82290017

and the center channel

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=8%2050012345%2040000494&Manufactory=12345&SubCategory=494&SpeTabStoreType=10

With this sale the bookshelfs I would have used for the surrounds are actually more expensive that the towers. It would be sweet as hell to have four beautiful towers like that, I'd like to get the cherry ones. The only problems it that the Cambridge Soundworks set is $450 and this set would come together at about $570 without a sub, which like I said I wouldn't need... I'll just have to think this one over.

[Joel]

The matching center is very large though at 7"x19"x9.68" with 2 5.25 woofers. I don't know where I could put this, my tv is in a corner and the bezel is to narrow to set it on, I also couldn't fit it in front of the tv and it has a rear firing port.

What is your TV set on? Do you have a shelf below that can accommodate the centre channel? DP you have pic of your setup as it is now?

[Master Shake]

What is your TV set on? Do you have a shelf below that can accommodate the centre channel? DP you have pic of your setup as it is now?

It's on a large glass stand with two shelves. The bottom one isn't tall enough but the top one is 6.5" tall, it should be able to fit. Does having the center channel in sort of enclosed place make a difference?

It would be nice to go with those polk towers and center and the dipole/bipole cambridge surrounds but I don't know how they would sound together. I think I asked before but how to towers work for surrounds besides being fairly large? Since these mains are so cheap I may end up buying a pair of them.

[Joel]

Does having the center channel in sort of enclosed place make a difference?

That will up to you to decide. How tight is the enclosure?

Having identical speakers for all channels is a good thing; buy the second pair if you have the space.

[Master Shake]

That will up to you to decide. How tight is the enclosure?

Having identical speakers for all channels is a good thing; buy the second pair if you have the space.

The enclosure is just two glass shelves with a metal frame, it's deep and wide enough but only 6.5" tall on the shelf closest to the tv. The whole stand is about an inch or two wider than the 60" dlp that's on it.

it's this one: http://www.amazon.com/Techcraft-HBL60-60-Inch-Panel-Television/dp/B00149XUZS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1267023746&sr=8-1

These speakers are being discontinued so that's why they're on sale. I'd really like to buy my receiver but I need to save $600-700 before I can pick up a used one, the $600 stock ran out.

[Dashel]

Klipsch's HD Theater 300/500 is a great intro set that is usually bundled with a decent Yamaha receiver for around $600/900 at most outlets. Just set one up to replace my parents Bose system and they couldn't be happier with the result. Especially for apartment living it sounds pretty good at half your current budget and comes with everything you will need + cables.

If you are really looking long term then I agree with goji about starting with good 3.1 components and expand from there. I also agree that Sony probably isn't the best option (Yamaha/HK/Denon/Onkyo). That said $600 isn't a bad deal, though 40% off isn't that surprising for used equipment.

[Master Shake]

Klipsch's HD Theater 300/500 is a great intro set that is usually bundled with a decent Yamaha receiver for around $600/900 at most outlets. Just set one up to replace my parents Bose system and they couldn't be happier with the result. Especially for apartment living it sounds pretty good at half your current budget and comes with everything you will need + cables.

If you are really looking long term then I agree with goji about starting with good 3.1 components and expand from there. I also agree that Sony probably isn't the best option (Yamaha/HK/Denon/Onkyo). That said $600 isn't a bad deal, though 40% off isn't that surprising for used equipment.

Those are very nice looking speakers, the cheaper or similiarly priced sets have the dipole/bipole switch on them that I want for my room though. I think the Klipsch would be EXCELLENT for a computer soundsystem with their built in brackets and I could get a very inexpensive receiver to go with.

The bundles I saw with a receiver were actually about the same or more expensive that the CSW HT-155 SE and Sony da3400es ($600 used). Thank you for the suggestion. I really need to hear to hear horns before I purchased them, there are no electronics shops around here except for walmart for at least 45 minutes around.

It is going to be a pain getting my speakers set up correctly in my room. I have had my system in a perfectly rectangular room before with the speakers a few inches away from the walls and slightly turned inwards. It took hours to setup. I had these components setup (still have them): A pair of Acoustic Research 303's (12", 3" inverted mid of some type and a dome tweeter, very odd but beautiful cherry speakers) they were $1200, a Sony cx90es (legendary) 100 disc cd changer with tv output I got at an outlet new for $300 when they were retailing for $1200 I believe and an old 300 watt rms kenwood stereo receiver with MIT patch cords. You couldn't even tell where the speakers were, you felt like you were THERE and the lows would move you. I listened to a lot of NIN and I heard things I'd never heard beffore in the 5 years I'd been listening to them.

I would have liked to have used those AR 303's as my mains an I wouldn't need a sub for this apartment, they can shake the house and are tight and articulate. Can you route the low effects to the mains? I could try to move the room around and would need 1' stands for them as they are like the classic speakers from the 70's. They are supposed to sound great with NHT zero's so then I'd have to only buy 3 speakers to complete the setup, I was going to use them in the meantime anyway. I don't know how to arrange the surrounds since the tv is in the corner as not to block the window entirely and the couch is on a wall across from it. Is it possible to set the surrounds where they are exactly to the sides of the listeners and still get the effect? I could probably jam those speakers against the side of the tv stand that runs the length of the 60" dlp. The surrounds are the problem in this setup and the length of the tv/mains setup. Actually I'll put a pic up so you guys can see what I mean. With a good amp and NHT surrounds and centers this would be a VERY nice system.

I'll show you guys some pics of the room real quick, I'll get more if anyone has ideas, or draw it out or something.

someone dancing.... nice dancefloor with lavalamps and blacklights, the ps3 has great visualizers!

Lights on, this is with the AR speakers

Moved to the other side of the window, only other place it can go

the side of the room I am taking the picture from has two doors on the corner, to my office and to the living room, the other corner has a window and the bathroom door. On the third picture there's the door to the stairs to go outside on the left, so I'm limited to these two corners. Like I said, i can jam the speakers in there, that's why I was looking at small speakers to put on stands. I have to pull the whole tv out to fit the AR's. then I don't know where to put the surrounds, there's no way they would be in the position you normally would. Someone please give me some advice on this. I figured the bipole/dipole speakers would spread the sound enough to give an illusion of the back being covered in sound. I can make a drawing or something if anyone thinks that would help. Thanks.

[goji]

Klipsch's HD Theater 300/500 is a great intro set that is usually bundled with a decent Yamaha receiver for around $600/900 at most outlets. Just set one up to replace my parents Bose system and they couldn't be happier with the result. Especially for apartment living it sounds pretty good at half your current budget and comes with everything you will need + cables.

If you are really looking long term then I agree with goji about starting with good 3.1 components and expand from there. I also agree that Sony probably isn't the best option (Yamaha/HK/Denon/Onkyo). That said $600 isn't a bad deal, though 40% off isn't that surprising for used equipment.

Ya know, I keep forgetting Klipsch is no longer a big box speaker manufacture anymore :p

Those are very nice looking speakers, the cheaper or similiarly priced sets have the dipole/bipole switch on them that I want for my room though. I think the Klipsch would be EXCELLENT for a computer soundsystem with their built in brackets and I could get a very inexpensive receiver to go with.

The bundles I saw with a receiver were actually about the same or more expensive that the CSW HT-155 SE and Sony da3400es ($600 used). Thank you for the suggestion. I really need to hear to hear horns before I purchased them, there are no electronics shops around here except for walmart for at least 45 minutes around.

Not all horns are the same. Klipsch, JBL and a few other companies that escape me perfected its use. Horns are great for loud cheap sound, and can sound like cr*d if it's generically manufactured.

Judging by the rest of your post you suffer from classical symptoms of people who crave HT, space limitations and on a budget. Like we've said, don't fret about 5.1 if you can settle on a great 2.1, 3.1 or 3.0 system. The effect of surround sound will be "sloppy" if your simply placing them for convenience. The audio tracks are mixed for a precise to create the surround sound feel. Everything else is imple audio playback. Doesn't mean you can't do it, it simply won't be the same effect. Judging by your pictures, wall mounted would be the ideal way to go. If you plan on staying there a while, buy accordingly. If you know you'll move to a better situation, plan ahead.

BTW, if you need cables, don't buy them at a brick and mortar store, make them: www.monoprice.com.

[Master Shake]

I'm just saying the space isn't PERFECT the surrounds have a nice spot on the sides, they could be adjusted in the receiver, the tv and speakers next to it will be a little to the right of where they should be so it won't ruin the experience.

What I want to know is if I should use my Acoustic Research 303 mains and find some matching surrounds/center instead of getting one of these speaker kits or building a whole new system. The 303 is a very nice speaker with lots of bass. Also, can I use the mains for the low freq effects since they go almost to 20hz and are over 200 watts?

I'm not sure how to go about finding the matching speakers since the matching AR's are rare anymore, I think the nht zeros are a little expensive but at least I have great mains to start out with. If I get a good center and am happy with it maybe I'll stick with that, but at least when I get my receiver I'll have something to mess will.

Koji what is your opinion? Have you heard anything about the ar303's? I hope the reciever has enough power for them, they are acoustic suspension speakers.

EDIT: I really want the Cambridge bipole/dipole speakers, I wonder if they would match up with the AR's, maybe I could try them and send them back if they don't work out. They would help greatly with my room problem.

[Master Shake]

Well, it looks like I might be going to part-time at my job so I won't have the money for a while. I was thinking of getting a nice, HTIB and moving that to my office with my computer when I buy a proper system down the road. Does anyone know of a decent one without a dvd/bluray player that can play bluray codes and is of good quality and sound?