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#151 Dashel

Dashel

    Disgustipator

  • Joined: 03-December 01
  • Location: USA

Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:17

Windows RT is NOT a phone OS. It is much more capable than WP8.


I never said it was. Why are you so touchy about what is and isn't a phone OS? I don't understand why WP can't join the club, especially considering your penchant for ARM. Four inches to forty, shouldn't that be the motto? For such a fan, why do you hate RT and WP so?

What makes RT not a phone OS and Win8Pro not a tablet one? Isn't that the trade for this do-over? Isn't that our advantage? Each format gives up a little, lets say bias in PGHammer lingo, to have the same 'stuff' across all.


#152 Stoffel

Stoffel

    Being on the ocean is cooler then being in front of a Computer

  • Joined: 16-August 11
  • Location: Utila, Honduras
  • OS: Windows 8 Pro

Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:21

I know some of you guys love Windows 8 but dang, some people just don't like Windows 8 no matter what. You guys need to accept that.


I understand that, but I was replying to Order_66.
He was talking about the abundant amount of people coming into his store complaining about Win8.

MS missed to ball completely by only adding that little into (move your cursor into any corner) at the initial setup.
They should have done a much more extensive demo, or give little hints like they did in earlier versions of Windows, that alone would have helped a lot.
He was not talking about your average IT pro, but about normal people. I still believe they just follow blindly what the tech press or their IT pro friends tell them to like.
So with a little training of your staff and a positive attitude you can sell Windows 8 easily to the average person.

That was the only point I was making

#153 zeke009

zeke009

    yeap...

  • Joined: 05-July 04
  • Location: MN
  • OS: Win8.1 Pro x64
  • Phone: Lumia 920 (AT&T)

Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:48

...

I'd say a week before I really got the hang of it and now, I don't miss the Start Menu at all.

Here are a couple tips I did at home and work to improve my productivity:
  • Learned to love Start Menu search more than I did in Vista and 7! There are 3 ways to access it, WinKey+F, mouse to the top right for Charms Bar, or tap WinKey to get to the Start Screen and just start typing.
  • Install Adobe Reader or your desktop PDF reader of choice and set it as default (avoids Modern app)
  • Set Windows Photo Viewer as default picture viewer (avoids Modern app)
  • Brought my trusty custom JumpList from Win7 to Win8, it's simple and very effective (IMO) http://en.www.ali.dj...plist-launcher/
I can spend most of my time in desktop mode uninterrupted until I choose to go to the Start Screen.

#154 PGHammer

PGHammer

    Neowinian Senior

  • Tech Issues Solved: 1
  • Joined: 31-August 03
  • Location: Accokeek, MD
  • OS: Windows 8 Pro with Media Center x64

Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:57

I know some of you guys love Windows 8 but dang, some people just don't like Windows 8 no matter what. You guys need to accept that.


Accepting it isn't the problem, Growled - it's when your reasons are pretty much the same ones that had hobbled previous OS failures (some of which were competition for NT, like Solaris and OS/2) that has me shaking my head in utter disbelief.

None of you are stupid - you can't be in IT and even survive. Most of you are also quite familiar with the competition that NT has had over the years (including Solaris and OS/2) - and most certainly are more familiar with both than I am - and the internal politics within Sun and IBM respectively that led to their failure to launch (especially since both, in fact, predate NT). Yet you are insisting that Microsoft make the same mistakes -knowing perfectly well what would happen to Microsoft (and Windows) if they did. I'm not even asking that you even LIKE the direction that Microsoft is heading.

I'm not exactly sanguine over the direction Microsoft is going myself - however, I do, at least get WHY they are going in that direction. I can no more live on the Royal Barge on the Egyptian River and make demands on the Royal Oarspersons than can Microsoft - or any person that makes a living, career, or even simply enjoys IT. You aren't Canute with his broom, attempting to sweep back the sea - and all it got HIM was wet. You get over the change in direction, accept it - and move on, already.



#155 +Chris123NT

Chris123NT

    Win8 Master

  • Joined: 01-November 01
  • Location: New York

Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:22

A phone OS is a poor tablet OS. I already have a Lumia running WP8, so why limit myself to such a crappy UX. when I can do better with Windows 8? Operating systems should never be upscaled. Go upscale a photograph and see just what that does to the quality of the photo. It's the same principal when upscaling operating systems.

Ok so you say upscaling an OS is bad, which is something I actually agree with.

So by that logic, why in the hell is MS trying to upscale a tablet UI onto a desktop PC? Same analogy as your photograph one. It performs great on a tablet, but on a full size desktop PC with mouse and keyboard it is a horribly clunky experience, not even remotely smooth or intuitive. However it DOES make sense for touch.

#156 PGHammer

PGHammer

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  • Tech Issues Solved: 1
  • Joined: 31-August 03
  • Location: Accokeek, MD
  • OS: Windows 8 Pro with Media Center x64

Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:37

I never said it was. Why are you so touchy about what is and isn't a phone OS? I don't understand why WP can't join the club, especially considering your penchant for ARM. Four inches to forty, shouldn't that be the motto? For such a fan, why do you hate RT and WP so?

What makes RT not a phone OS and Win8Pro not a tablet one? Isn't that the trade for this do-over? Isn't that our advantage? Each format gives up a little, lets say bias in PGHammer lingo, to have the same 'stuff' across all.


Windows 8 Pro is a *superset OS* - it supports more than just tablets.

Nobody - not Dot, or myself, or anyone that has posted in favor of ModernUI - has attempted to pigeonhole ModernUI, let alone Windows 8 itself. That has been done entirely by the critics of ModernUI.

Do you realize, that by deliberately doing such pigeonholing, is that you are ALSO pigeonholing the rest of the Windows UI - the carryover from 7, in other words - as desktop-only?

Most of you know that Windows has deliberately resisted such pigeonholing - Windows NT, in fact, has thrown up the greatest such resistance.

Also, here's something that you may want to take a look at - every operating system that has STUCK to such pigeonholing - regardless of from which direction the pressure to pigeonhole becomes - has failed or become niche-bound.

Windows - and especially NT - has gotten to its position because it has resisted being pigeonholed. iOS has advanced beyond music players. Android has advanced beyond phones. In other words, Google and Apple are following the trend of - surprisingly - Windows in general, and NT in particular by NOT staying niche-bound. (You may be able to survive in a niche - however, you certainly don't thrive in one. In fact, look at OS X - unlike iOS, Apple has deliberately kept it inside the closed-OS niche - and it is costing OS X. OS X is surviving - however, thriving it is not.)

Further, x86 tablets exist - and they began before Windows 8 did. (Yes - Windows 8 created a drive for more such tablets - however, they predate it.) Then there are convertibles (such as Lenovo's Yoga series, ASUS' Transformer series, and Samsung's ATIV). They have features of both tablets and "conventional" portables - not exactly fitting into a traditional niche, do they? As hardware has adapted and changed, Windows in general, and NT in particular, has followed along with and embraced those changes - that is utterly beyond what any of us (including me) would have even dared consider.

I don't own a tablet - in fact, I have little interest in purchasing one. However, I have family and friends that have - and who is the "resident geek" that gets called upon when their tablet (regardless of what OS it is running) is having issues? Yes - me. That - in and of itself - means that sticking fingers in ears and trying to whistle up more oarspersons for the Royal Barge is not even close to being an option. That ALSO means that, regardless of what my personal feelings may be, I'd better be prepared to deal with the tablet onslaught. Being in IT means adapting to changes - even if the changes are not necessarily the ones we have hoped for. It means rolling with the flow and getting over it, and moving on.

I'm not asking that you necessarily LIKE the changes involved - some of the changes that ModernUI creates leave ME a little queasy, to be honest. (And such changes have not a thing to do with the Start menu, or the excision thereof.) However, being in denial is no more an option for you than it is for me - and if you CAN'T deal, for whatever reason, get out of IT and find yourself a new line of work. While change is not always how we'd like it, change is a constant.


#157 DKAngel

DKAngel

    That i cannot own ....I shall destroy

  • Joined: 20-July 03
  • Location: Perth, Australia

Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:11

Places like control panel were stupid to get too, also searching for apps never really worked for me also (It wouldn't show or would show the wrong app)

control panel - type control pael and wulla metro control panel, u want it in desktop win+x and wulla a whole list of power commands

#158 PGHammer

PGHammer

    Neowinian Senior

  • Tech Issues Solved: 1
  • Joined: 31-August 03
  • Location: Accokeek, MD
  • OS: Windows 8 Pro with Media Center x64

Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:24

Ok so you say upscaling an OS is bad, which is something I actually agree with.

So by that logic, why in the hell is MS trying to upscale a tablet UI onto a desktop PC? Same analogy as your photograph one. It performs great on a tablet, but on a full size desktop PC with mouse and keyboard it is a horribly clunky experience, not even remotely smooth or intuitive. However it DOES make sense for touch.


ModernUI is a part of Windows 8 Pro for those neither fish OR fowl devices called "convertibles" - that actually started with Windows 7; the very fact that it also is usable with mice and keyboards (and therefore on desktops) is gravy. It seems *clunky* on desktops because it is *foreign* to our experiences. Chris123NT, you should know as well as any of us how a change in desktop experience can roil a user base - how easy was the adjustment from NT 3.x to NT4, or from NT4 to Windows 2000?

Convertibles (both ARM and x86) support multiple methods of interaction - touch, keyboards, and mice. That means that support for all those multiple methods MUST be part of the operating system. Touch support in Windows 7 was, to put it bluntly, horrible - application support for touch was even worse. (That is, in fact, why touch support on desktops never really took off pre-8.) Android and iOS supported all three (in Android's case, 3.x had better support for interaction OTHER than touch than 2.x - which was why Google demanded 3.x on tablets to get its official blessing) while 7, despite a higher licensing fee, did not (it failed miserably at touch).

Segue to today. Tablets are selling - iOS, Android, and (in a surprise to doubtless all the doubters) Windows-based tablets (both RT and 8-based). Included with those tablets and slates are convertibles (Android-based, RT-based, and 8-based). Convertibles are to traditional hardware what Android, iOS, and Windows (especially NT) are to traditional operating systems - they laugh at convention. If anything, Windows NT is the least-conventional operating system in not merely Microsoft's history, but in the history of all operating systems. Windows NT didn't follow the trend - it set, and to a large part IS the goldarned trend. Therefore, ModernUI (or something like it) was predictable when the first convertibles happened.

Here's something else that needs to seriously be thought on - are desktops not selling due to something that is missing outside the OS? Where are the desktops that support touch? How well do those that exist sell? Touch-supporting desktops aren't cheap - they still have a price premium compared to conventional desktops. Could the non-sales of Windows 8-powered desktops be due to not necessarily something missing in Windows 8, but due to touch support being missing in the hardware available, or the price for it being too high? The economy is only now recovering - and said recovery is slow and shaky. Tablets, slates, and convertibles are cheaper than traditional desktops - better yet, they all (or mostly) support multiple methods of interaction - favoring none. If you aren''t used to touch interaction, a tablet is cheaper to learn it than a touch-enabled desktop. Even if you have to add a keyboard and mouse, it often remains cheaper than a desktop - in some cases, cheaper than even a traditional notebook - and, other than screen size, may well be more usable (due to longer battery life and the aforementioned touch support, which is often not included in traditional notebooks). How are traditional notebooks (regardless of OS) selling? (Apple's own latest sales numbers may be a different sort of tell - no MacBook supports touch. Are iPad sales eating into MacBook sales? Are consumers giving a different sort of message - if the OS supports touch, than the hardware had better support touch? Do we have a Vista or Windows 2000 Professional situation - where the OS is outstripping the hardware it is running on?)



#159 Sputnick

Sputnick

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  • Joined: 20-June 12

Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:34

I tried Windows 8 for 4 months and I never came to like it.
Sure I tried installing software which brings the Start Menu back, but I couldn't avoid the Metro interface entirely. What annoyed me the most is that Windows 8 has 2 interfaces, Metro and Desktop, if it only had one of then (even only the Metro) I might like it or at least get used to it.
I've recently switched OS to Ubuntu Gnome which I really like, but maybe I will try Windows 8 again when 8.1 is released, if they change anything significantly.

#160 AlexMagik

AlexMagik

    Over the Top

  • Joined: 09-October 03
  • Location: China
  • OS: MacOS X

Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:34

i came from Mac, with VM on win7 for some stupid client's excel with macros... Anyway, after reading so many bad reviews, i did want to give it a try and yes, i started with a very pessimistic feeling on how stupid would that be. nevertheless, i went ahead, installed it, and while in VM was a pain (active corners, not really as they border out to the mac), when i did bootcamp, took me a day to get used to the new start page, metro, etc. While i may still stick to outlook (for business reasons) and a few old-desktop styles apps, definitely i loved win8 and it's now my only OS with Mac.

#161 BajiRav

BajiRav

    Neowinian Senior

  • Joined: 15-July 04
  • Location: Xbox, where am I?
  • OS: Windows 8.1, Windows 8
  • Phone: Lumia 920

Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:24

I know some of you guys love Windows 8 but dang, some people just don't like Windows 8 no matter what. You guys need to accept that.

I guess personally I am fine with people not liking it - what I don't like is when posters here start extrapolating their opinion to "normal consumer" stuff. A good example here is Order_66 who has probably typed the words "hostile" and "UI" more than they were printed in all the dictionaries combined.

I like Windows 8 for all improvements it brings and I hate to seeing a really fine OS crucified because some people don't like it. This is a very deja vu of what happened to Vista. The overall decline of PC market is only adding fuel to the fire (not to mention that PC sales have plummeted under 7 too but people conveniently ignore that).

#162 Dot Matrix

Dot Matrix

    Way past cool.

  • Tech Issues Solved: 2
  • Joined: 14-November 11
  • Location: Upstate New York
  • OS: Windows 8.1
  • Phone: Nokia Lumia 920

Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:32

Ok so you say upscaling an OS is bad, which is something I actually agree with.

So by that logic, why in the hell is MS trying to upscale a tablet UI onto a desktop PC? Same analogy as your photograph one. It performs great on a tablet, but on a full size desktop PC with mouse and keyboard it is a horribly clunky experience, not even remotely smooth or intuitive. However it DOES make sense for touch.


The Start Screen isn't a tablet only UI. I don't understand how having a dashboard on my PC suddenly makes it a tablet? The desktop is still there.

#163 spoetnik

spoetnik

    Neowinian

  • Joined: 21-April 13

Posted 04 May 2013 - 13:03

Hmm I dunno, move to top right or bottom left, Settings>Control Panel.

Or you just WIn Key + Type Control Panel Item and just choose "Settings" as the search filter.

I wouldn't say it's "difficult" it's not harder then it was before, it's just that you and others are not used to change, and rather then adapt, people choose to abandon and go back to their old ways they are comfortable with


nope.

http://www.zdnet.com...ded-7000006922/

#164 Fahim S.

Fahim S.

    Neowinian Senior

  • Tech Issues Solved: 2
  • Joined: 15-April 02
  • OS: Windows 8 - OG
  • Phone: Google Nexus 4 16GB by LG

Posted 04 May 2013 - 21:51

nope.

http://www.zdnet.com...ded-7000006922/


Interesting, and I quote:

Lastly, the reason I disliked Windows 8 as much as I did was the lack of familiarity.



and...

I get Windows 8. It's not difficult to use; it's just unenjoyable to use, for me.



He makes this point repeatedly, that it is not unusable, just that it is unfamiliar and he doesn't like it. Kind of goes against what a lot of Windows 8 haters on this forum seem to be saying.

#165 Motoko.

Motoko.

    Neowinian Senior

  • Joined: 04-November 09
  • Location: United States of America
  • OS: Windows 8 Pro

Posted 04 May 2013 - 22:27

I did a fresh install of Windows 7, it feels to good to go back to a comfortable enjoyable OS



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