Windows 8: A

[Davo]

So how exactly did smartphones and tablets become a hit?

You think people actually learned them? It started with Blackberry and the "No Chav Left Behind" days.

[MorganX]

I have no doubt the Modern interface will mature to the point that it will completely replace the desktop. It took several iterations of the desktop GUI to replace the command prompt, and it will most likely be the same with Modern. There might be some niche applications that absolutely need the desktop, but it's going to be a fairly rare occurrence.

I tend to agree, but it will be major reiterations. Dealing with context just doesn't work well. Right clicking in the Modern UI just doesn't really work well. I do believe they did the best they could with core apps but the Modern UI doesn't lend itself with dealing with long lists well, or contextual option easily. It's much better on a tablet where everything is closer.

As it relates to the topic, I think without the desktop environment the Surface RT would be easier to deal with for people like the reviewer. However, Office 2013 at a minimum is a desktop app.

Right now I don't see a clear vision for the maturation process. If we get any early peeks at Windows 9, maybe that will clear up some things.

With Windows 8, I haven't had this much fun using a computer since I first got one to be honest. It feels so reinvigorating to actually be learning something new as opposed to using the same GUI with "cool" Aero effects or redundant menus. If there's anything this backlash has taught me, it's that people can't learn something new.

The only negative remark I'll make about it is that Microsoft continued the trend they started with Vista of either moving, layering, or straight up removing vital functions. While the Charms Bar is great on a WinRT tablet, it's worth ****-all on even a Win32 tablet, let alone a desktop/laptop. Devices is practically useless, Start is redundant, Search is dismal, and Settings leads you to what Charms should have been. Share is more tablet-oriented but I'm willing to ignore it for the greater good of having an OS that can work across multiple platforms.

I agree with all you negatives. Particularly Search and while I like charms, is usefulness on the desktop should be more of what you get when you go to settings. I think most people who have a negative option share similar feelings are not just unwilling to learn. They find the negatives unacceptable, while you and I find enough positives to work around the negatives.

[Dot Matrix]

look on this forum. its full of clueless people that think windows 8 is hard or confusing lol then in a later post these same people pretend to work in the IT sector.

This is my given opinion.

The more I work my way into IT, the more I find it's full of people with extreme sets of laziness, and people who boast huge egos. When things change that force them off their butt, or when they don't get their way with huge tech companies, they cry. We saw it with Windows 95, we saw it with Windows XP, we saw it with Windows Vista, we saw it to a lesser degree with Windows 7, and now we can see it with Windows 8. The changes introduced in those versions force them to learn something new, which may or may not break old habits, but when they do, look out, because you'll hear about it! Especially, if they create a scenario where you have to take an additional extra step. I used to have a professor who swore by ancient techniques, and it was almost sad to watch him complain and complain after Vista was launched when a lot of his ways were removed for good. After Vista, I know many nerds wanted "Windows XP Second Edition", and were furious to never get it. They really wanted all those changes in Vista to revert back and go away, and ****ed and moaned when they didn't, because it forced them to learn something new, and then support it, as others learned it as well. Now with Windows 8, you rinse, lather, and repeat. The OP's article is nothing more than the author plugging his hears, and shouting out loud at the arrival of Windows 8, trying to ignore its existence.

And nowadays that kids are growing up with technology around them, and with devices becoming simpler ("dumbed down" as people put it), many egos are being shattered after the older generation finds out they're just not needed anymore, and that kids can fix their own devices after something goes wrong. Again, once this happens, you're gonna hear about it. There are many days where I have sat and watched the people around me solve their own computer problems, and it leaves me impressed. Sure, I still get called upon to answer a few questions, but generally, people are on their own with their tech, and I know some people this bothers, because they have that ego in front of them - the "holier than thou" attitude that turns many off from IT in the first place... Remember that old SNL skit "Nick Burns: Your Company's Computer Guy"? Remember the ego he had? Yeah, it's kinda like that...

Anyway, just my two cents as to what's going on with the IT sector today.

[Growled Member]

I wouldn't even give windows 8 to someone i hate.. That's just as bad as murdering someone.

I know a few people I would like to murder. :p

[tkaw220]

There is always an alternative choice out there. Buy or stay with the OS you preferred.

[techbeck]

no a Christmas gift for someone you hate is a el cheapo Chinese junk android tablet with minimal processing power and minimal RAM... watch them get frustrated to heck with the laggy response, non-working UI and crappy screen touch quality (im talking the sub $100 tablets, not the higher end ones)

Dont get me started on those cheap ones. I had the "pleasure" of dealing with one of those. My mom got one free from Verizon as part of a deal/promotion on a phone. It was a piece of **** tablet. Laggy as all hell and came with Android 2.2. Only update for it was a rooted ROM with 2.3. 2.3 didnt make it much better and it has been sitting collecting dust since. And found out it was a floor model left over that was never used (supposedly and now I know why). However, the tablet came boxed with no protective film, and the power cable was wrapped like you would extra cables you want to store. Only thing new thing was the dock. Didnt even come with a manual or anything else. Oh....and it had an expandable SD storage...but was the full SD no micro/mini.

Phone is great tho....she likes that.

[MorganX]

This is my given opinion.

The more I work my way into IT, the more I find it's full of people with extreme sets of laziness, and people who boast huge egos. When things change that force them off their butt, or when they don't get their way with huge tech companies, they cry. We saw it with Windows 95, we saw it with Windows XP, we saw it with Windows Vista, we saw it to a lesser degree with Windows 7, and now we can see it with Windows 8.

I'm glad you clearly identified this as opinion. If you were in IT with Windows 95 and 10 years ago with XP, you're not working your way in to IT. You're in it.

I think what you said is nonsense. If you said that in an interview I would end it as soon as you were finished talking. You would cost the organization a fortune in downtime and lost productivity if you honestly believe that.

Without a doubt there are lazy people in all occupations and corners of the world, IT generally is NOT one of them. Though there are lazy programmers :p

Enterprises do not migrate production environments to the latest greatest OS or even application upgrades on a whim, without planning, testing, and ROI evaluation. I find all of your post to be absurd. Seriously. If you're truly working your way through IT, you really need to take a step back from the evangelism podium and re-evaluate.

>>many egos are being shattered after the older generation finds out they're just not needed anymore, and that kids can fix their own devices after something goes wrong.<<

roflmao, stop. please. 1st Tier Help Desk does not equal IT Sector or datacenter. Sorry if that sounds holier than thou. :/

>>Now with Windows 8, you rinse, lather, and repeat.<<

You have absolutely outdone yourself this time Dot. :D

[Shane Nokes]

I'm glad you clearly identified this as opinion. If you were in IT with Windows 95 and 10 years ago with XP, you're not working your way in to IT. You're in it.

I think what you said is nonsense. If you said that in an interview I would end it as soon as you were finished talking. You would cost the organization a fortune in downtime and lost productivity if you honestly believe that.

Without a doubt there are lazy people in all occupations and corners of the world, IT generally is NOT one of them. Though there are lazy programmers :p

Enterprises do not migrate production environments to the latest greatest OS or even application upgrades on a whim, without planning, testing, and ROI evaluation. I find all of your post to be absurd. Seriously. If you're truly working your way through IT, you really need to take a step back from the evangelism podium and re-evaluate.

>>many egos are being shattered after the older generation finds out they're just not needed anymore, and that kids can fix their own devices after something goes wrong.<<

roflmao, stop. please. 1st Tier Help Desk does not equal IT Sector or datacenter. Sorry if that sounds holier than thou. :/

>>Now with Windows 8, you rinse, lather, and repeat.<<

You have absolutely outdone yourself this time Dot. :D

Indeed. That's part of the problem with the IT sector...someone talks sense, and they get in a huff.

Believing that people are lazy and need a kick in the pants to actually do work would lead to downtime and lost productivity?

I'm shocked by the insinuation that making people work would lead to less work getting done. Did you actually bother reading what Dot wrote and what you wrote before hitting the post button? It doesn't look like it to me.

Indeed, there are quite a few lazy people in the world in all fields. Having spent my time in the IT trenches, and engineering trenches, QA trenches, and even some time in the programming trenches I can say that my observation matches with Dot's. Typically the IT folks are the ones that moan the loudest about change, and lament having to actually do research and keep up on product changes.

They want things to remain static and not change since that gives them less work to do.

Then again I expect an insult filled reply or a 'nuh uh' your wrong, or to be ignored entirely. It's part of why I'm so effective oddly enough. People ignore me...until a point is reached when they are like 'Holy %$#$, he was right."

It's the story of my life. It's frustrating and irritating, but ultimately ends up working out just fine every single time.

[Dashel]

Your post really just makes me wonder why you are going into IT to begin with. The best IT guys I've worked with, at their core, go into the field becuase they are constantanly learning something new. You don't just get a degree to do the same things day in and day out. For those lucky enough to work at the better organizations at least 20% of your time is spent on research and learning. Sure, while there are some break/fix tech support companies that exhibit some of the symptoms you cite, the majority of the field should be insulted by your own arrogance and lack of empathy to what they do, the very traits you supposedly lament. Per the skit, I would like to hear how you would have handled any of those situations given your post history. You are that guy if you think the choice of a desktop OS has any bearing on their jobs beyond being just one piece of the puzzle.

Your readiness to throw your peers under the bus publically as lazy luddites, either here or to whatever business you are trying to worm your way into, is what is wrong with IT. People in other industries are much better at watching either other's backs. When you have such a jargon filled and wide ranging profession as technology, its even more important.

I also really love this idea that kids today are somehow more clued in to technology. You don't fix an appliance, you replace it. So what exactly makes them better at it when you're dealing with the learning curve a Rascal scooter could ascend?

[FloatingFatMan]

If I were really going to waste money on buying someone I hated a present to make their life hell, I'd get them an Apple product. :p

[-T- Member]

I really don't get how these supposed experts are confused by this operating system. I've found it to be terribly easy to use, as have both my kids aged 3 & 5

[Shane Nokes]

Your post really just makes me wonder why you are going into IT to begin with. The best IT guys I've worked with, at their core, go into the field becuase they are constantanly learning something new. You don't just get a degree to do the same things day in and day out. For those lucky enough to work at the better organizations at least 20% of your time is spent on research and learning. Sure, while there are some break/fix tech support companies that exhibit some of the symptoms you cite, the majority of the field should be insulted by your own arrogance and lack of empathy to what they do, the very traits you supposedly lament. Per the skit, I would like to hear how you would have handled any of those situations given your post history. You are that guy if you think the choice of a desktop OS has any bearing on their jobs beyond being just one piece of the puzzle.

Your readiness to throw your peers under the bus publically as lazy luddites, either here or to whatever business you are trying to worm your way into, is what is wrong with IT. People in other industries are much better at watching either other's backs. When you have such a jargon filled and wide ranging profession as technology, its even more important.

I also really love this idea that kids today are somehow more clued in to technology. You don't fix an appliance, you replace it. So what exactly makes them better at it when you're dealing with the learning curve a Rascal scooter could ascend?

I hope that wasn't addressed to me, and I'm assuming it's not, especially with some of the comments. That's why quoting helps BTW.

I do want to counter the more clued in comment. Actually kids these days are a lot more clued in to certain concepts in technology.

Heck they even have programming and repair classes in schools nowadays. When I was in high school the most advanced classes they taught were typing classes. Everything else I had to learn on my own with as library card and some spare time.

I really don't get how these supposed experts are confused by this operating system. I've found it to be terribly easy to use, as have both my kids aged 3 & 5

They're not experts, they just claim to be since it makes them feel important. An expert may point out things that the average person might find confusing, but they themselves shouldn't be confused by it.

They should also be willing to accept the concept that people can adapt and instead of criticizing perhaps offer useful guidance.

They don't seem to understand the concept of constructive criticism or the idea that people may like things they do not...but they do hide their dislike under the guise of wisdom.

[IntegralDerivative]

If so, Imma go start a random fight with someone on a PC store :p

[MorganX]

Believing that people are lazy and need a kick in the pants to actually do work would lead to downtime and lost productivity?

No Shane, the ridiculous Windows 8 Evangelist club notion that the IT industry isn't jumping through hoops to immediately embrace and migrate to Windows 8 because they are too lazy to change, and the fact that he would even pretend to be this na?ve as an IT professional would lead to downtime and loss of productivity if he were your employee in an Enterprise Computing Environment.

[MorganX]

They want things to remain static and not change since that gives them less work to do.

IT supports a business community, that must remain up and productive, and generally profitable and operating within budgets. Suggesting that not running out to install the latest operating system, whether it be on the desktop and in the datacenter, that is clearly not a mature product, will incur significant retraining effort, and without thorough testing with in house applications and workflow, is just nonsensical and I can't actually take you as a serious IT professional.

Way back in the days of Netscape, I was in ClubIE, I know the evangelism game. But you guys are being ridiculous.

Can you actually take anyone seriously that professes to understand the responsibility of IT professionals and then says; Windows 8 is lather, rinse, repeat? After suggesting IT professionals are lazy and just don't want to change for not running out to deploy Windows 8 in the enterprise?

[Shane Nokes]

No Shane, the ridiculous Windows 8 Evangelist club notion that the IT industry isn't jumping through hoops to immediately embrace and migrate to Windows 8 because they are too lazy to change, and the fact that he would even pretend to be this na?ve as an IT professional would lead to downtime and loss of productivity if he were your employee in an Enterprise Computing Environment.

I find it amusing you put me in that club...but where have I said they should jump through hoops to immediately embrace and migrate their particular ECE?

I will state however, that it is part of IT's job to continually evaluate new environments in order to determine suitability for roll-out. This includes becoming familiar with the OS long before a roll-out would happen in order to provide proper support if such a roll-out will occur.

This includes both client and server versions. Education is ongoing in IT. It is lazy to simply exclude an environment in your learning simply because you don't like it. You're not paid to like something, you're paid to support it.

IT supports a business community, that must remain up and productive, and generally profitable and operating within budgets. Suggesting that not running out to install the latest operating system, whether it be on the desktop and in the datacenter, that is clearly not a mature product, will incur significant retraining effort, and without thorough testing with in house applications and workflow, is just nonsensical and I can't actually take you as a serious IT professional.

Way back in the days of Netscape, I was in ClubIE, I know the evangelism game. But you guys are being ridiculous.

Can you actually take anyone seriously that professes to understand the responsibility of IT professionals and then says; Windows 8 is lather, rinse, repeat? After suggesting IT professionals are lazy and just don't want to change for not running out to deploy Windows 8 in the enterprise?

Ok again you are saying that I'm saying something that I'm not.

Until you decide to actually read what I write...

You know what...nevermind...that will never happen.

[MikeChipshop Member]

This article smacks of being written by someone that desperately wanted to write something bad about Windows 8, read a few things on other sites and decided to write it up as their own.

Terrible terrible writing.

[MorganX]

that it is part of IT's job to continually evaluate new environments

Keyword being evaluate. That takes time. And you must accept that upon evaluation, many will find Windows 8 is not for them. There is no IT department whose primary platform is Microsoft Server Technologies and complimentary solutions that is not evaluating Windows 8.

Ok again you are saying that I'm saying something that I'm not.

I wouldn't do that to you Shane, our exchange here began with you defending and supporting what I feel was a ridiculous post about IT and IT professionals that aren't just jumping on the Windows 8 bandwagon. I'm sure I just attached your defense of that position to those statements and responded to them as a whole. Putting words in your mouth was not my intent.

[FloatingFatMan]

This article smacks of being written by someone that desperately wanted to write something bad about Windows 8, read a few things on other sites and decided to write it up as their own.

Terrible terrible writing.

What do you expect? Most online "journalists" learned their writing skills from junk tabloids and have an average IQ not much higher than a pile of poo.

[Noir Angel]

This is my given opinion.

The more I work my way into IT, the more I find it's full of people with extreme sets of laziness, and people who boast huge egos. When things change that force them off their butt, or when they don't get their way with huge tech companies, they cry. We saw it with Windows 95, we saw it with Windows XP, we saw it with Windows Vista, we saw it to a lesser degree with Windows 7, and now we can see it with Windows 8. The changes introduced in those versions force them to learn something new, which may or may not break old habits, but when they do, look out, because you'll hear about it! Especially, if they create a scenario where you have to take an additional extra step. I used to have a professor who swore by ancient techniques, and it was almost sad to watch him complain and complain after Vista was launched when a lot of his ways were removed for good. After Vista, I know many nerds wanted "Windows XP Second Edition", and were furious to never get it. They really wanted all those changes in Vista to revert back and go away, and ****ed and moaned when they didn't, because it forced them to learn something new, and then support it, as others learned it as well. Now with Windows 8, you rinse, lather, and repeat. The OP's article is nothing more than the author plugging his hears, and shouting out loud at the arrival of Windows 8, trying to ignore its existence.

And nowadays that kids are growing up with technology around them, and with devices becoming simpler ("dumbed down" as people put it), many egos are being shattered after the older generation finds out they're just not needed anymore, and that kids can fix their own devices after something goes wrong. Again, once this happens, you're gonna hear about it. There are many days where I have sat and watched the people around me solve their own computer problems, and it leaves me impressed. Sure, I still get called upon to answer a few questions, but generally, people are on their own with their tech, and I know some people this bothers, because they have that ego in front of them - the "holier than thou" attitude that turns many off from IT in the first place... Remember that old SNL skit "Nick Burns: Your Company's Computer Guy"? Remember the ego he had? Yeah, it's kinda like that...

Anyway, just my two cents as to what's going on with the IT sector today.

I'm 27 so that's a stereotype you fail on. A fair few of the other people that volunteer in the centre I work in are under 30 as well, and pretty much nobody I talk to likes Windows 8.

[Shane Nokes]

I'm 27 so that's a stereotype you fail on. A fair few of the other people that volunteer in the centre I work in are under 30 as well, and pretty much nobody I talk to likes Windows 8.

At 27 you're not a kid any more...so you fail at pointing out that his 'stereotype' about kids is wrong...

Keyword being evaluate. That takes time. And you must accept that upon evaluation, many will find Windows 8 is not for them. There is no IT department whose primary platform is Microsoft Server Technologies and complimentary solutions that is not evaluating Windows 8.

I wouldn't do that to you Shane, our exchange here began with you defending and supporting what I feel was a ridiculous post about IT and IT professionals that aren't just jumping on the Windows 8 bandwagon. I'm sure I just attached your defense of that position to those statements and responded to them as a whole. Putting words in your mouth was not my intent.

I was more supporting the position that in many cases IT personnel have become lazy. Every single time a huge change happens in Windows there is grumbling, and it's usually loudest from the IT folks.

The last 6 years have been especially filled with it. XP let them get a little too complacent due to how long it has lasted.

I don't think anyone should just jump on a bandwagon with something that is unproven. I do however thing IT folks have become more close-minded and less open towards testing/evaluating new things.

It reminds me of a lyric from Linkin Park:

'Cause even the blueprint is a gift and a curse

'Cause once you have the theory of how the thing works

Everybody wants the next thing to be just like the first

[Dot Matrix]

Good God, so I just realized this is a "MIT professor" who wrote this. For a person of "professor" status, this article is atrocious, and missing the expected research I would think he would have done before writing it.

How is it I can use Windows 8 and this "professor" can't? Sorry, we don't use command lines or terminal systems anymore, bud. Time to wake up, it's 2013 now.

I'm 27 so that's a stereotype you fail on. A fair few of the other people that volunteer in the centre I work in are under 30 as well, and pretty much nobody I talk to likes Windows 8.

At 27, you're not a kid anymore, are you? (I would hope not). I have a cousin who is 13. I watched over thanksgiving as she troubleshooted her laptop. She knew what was going on, which I found impressive. I also see fellow peers and students who can do the same.

[MorganX]

The last 6 years have been especially filled with it. XP let them get a little too complacent due to how long it has lasted.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the laziness of IT.

XP actually does not support your case for someone that has IT experience during the XP days. Enormous amounts of work and resources were put into making XP a secure stable enterprise desktop. Those investments are hard to part with once a user base has been trained and is productive. There is a bottom line. That doesn't even begin to account for all of the applications that simply could not just migrate to Vista, or even Windows 7. XP Mode is available in Windows 7 for a reason.

I can only say, that you and Dot have been in organizations with top notch IT departments if you have been able to exist peacefully oblivious to these mundane realities of Information Technology. In fact, it is the job of Information Technology to keep it that way, because only "they" get paid to deal with that sort of thing while keeping it transparent and unobtrusive to the business communities that IT enables.

[Shane Nokes]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the laziness of IT.

XP actually does not support your case for someone that has IT experience during the XP days. Enormous amounts of work and resources were put into making XP a secure stable enterprise desktop. Those investments are hard to part with once a user base has been trained and is productive. There is a bottom line. That doesn't even begin to account for all of the applications that simply could not just migrate to Vista, or even Windows 7. XP Mode is available in Windows 7 for a reason.

I can only say, that you and Dot have been in organizations with top notch IT departments if you have been able to exist peacefully oblivious to these mundane realities of Information Technology. In fact, it is the job of Information Technology to keep it that way, because only "they" get paid to deal with that sort of thing while keeping it transparent and unobtrusive to the business communities that IT enables.

Luckily my last few years have been spent contracting/consulting at MS. So they do have top-notch IT, that keeps things up-to-date with the latest. They sort of have an advantage though since it is their OS that they are supporting on the machines. ;)

To call me oblivious however is an insult. I've worked IT, I've worked engineering, I've worked support, I've worked dev, I've worked QA, I've worked BI.

I know most business roles inside and out...I'm as far from oblivious on most major business roles as anyone you will likely meet.

I just am not afraid to call it like it is and not care if someone gets angry at me for pointing it out. It's part of why I've never really tried for an FTE role there. I don't play office politics, and that suits me just fine. ;)

[xWhiplash]

Good God, so I just realized this is a "MIT professor" who wrote this. For a person of "professor" status, this article is atrocious, and missing the expected research I would think he would have done before writing it.

How is it I can use Windows 8 and this "professor" can't? Sorry, we don't use command lines or terminal systems anymore, bud. Time to wake up, it's 2013 now.

At 27, you're not a kid anymore, are you? (I would hope not). I have a cousin who is 13. I watched over thanksgiving as she troubleshooted her laptop. She knew what was going on, which I found impressive. I also see fellow peers and students who can do the same.

Sigh...Why is it that you are comparing the changes to Windows 8 with the changes of moving on from command line?

Could it be....possibly....somehow.....that he uses the computer in a different way than you? My god all of this "I can use Windows 8 just fine so you must suck at computers or are just too lazy". As I have mentioned, when I use Windows 8 in a productive way, the Charms bar and App switcher keep getting in my way. My clients keep activating them as well, which makes it very embarrassing when you then ask them for money for your work. You look unprofessional when there are these hidden menus appear constantly.

Do you expect me to teach my photoshop/after effects clients how Windows 8 works before I work on their projects? No. It is my responsibility as the person that is hired to do the work, to appear professional at all times.

So without Start8, I HATE Windows 8 as a productive environment. Everything else is fine, but that is the truth you guys seem to not realize. People use computers differently.

A simple option to disable these menus would have made the OS better for most. It is not because we are scared/lazy/stuck in the past/whatever, it is when things start interfering with your workflow. Why can't you guys see that?