257 replies to this topic 12 votes

[GP007]

Here we go again. People should just give it a rest already. Last I checked MS got fined and paid money for breaking the law in the EU with regards to IE. So anything after that is up for debate. I can't see how the 2 or 3 of you on the courts side like to sidestep the fact that other browsers can and have been gaining market share all this time regardless of IE being part of windows.

Why didn't the EU ask MS to offer a list of media players last time? Why was that exact same case covering the exact same law-breaking different? Why then was WMP asked to be removed if that wouldn't restore the market?

I don't see any difference between the two cases, the only difference is software. The charges are the same and the verdict is the same. MS following the previous outcome decided not to wait for the EU to move it's slow ass since they have a product to release and just took out IE.

And ofc mozilla and Google support having a list, it's more free adertising for them. You'd be daft to think otherwise. But then, why don't other browsers give me a list of search providers after I install them like IE does now? Last time I used Opera I couldn't even change the search box from Google to something else.

[statm1]

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 07:07, said:

Because you implied that this wasn't about what Microsoft started in the 90s because they'd already been punished for that by the US.

All I said was that it a new case and has nothing to do with the one in the 90s BECAUSE it was between MS and Netscape. Netscape had a case because MS actually did break the law because in that case it was more than just bundling. Go read your history..

Quote

So Opera want the Trident rendering engine removed from Windows 7 completely?

From Jul 18 2009, 07:13:

No, they don't. They want Microsoft to have to offer the user a list of browsers (including IE). This is even stated in the quote in the original poster, but I understand that reading is exceptionally difficult.

Quote

Flipping a switch to simply make IE8 unavailable is not enough for Opera, ...

Kinda sounds like it to me Hdood.. Looks like its pretty difficult for you too. Since this is a quote from the original poster.

[mdtaUK]

Lechio, on Jul 18 2009, 12:02, said:

• The European Commission does not exist to make someone's "dirty work" as it was implied. There are mechanisms that analyze potential unfair situations ( dominant market position abuse is the case here ).

Your are obviously not a UK Citizen if that is how you think of the EU. The EU make some very good legislation, but at times they can be downright stupid. Human Rights Act - Awesome thank you EU, but Harmonization of Bannanas and Sausages is stupid. Opera claimed that Microsoft including IE with Windows was anti-competative. So they have now removed it, so Opera no longer have a case.

Lechio, on Jul 18 2009, 12:02, said:

• By taking out IE from Windows, Microsoft has not solved anything. On the contrary it has created a lot of issues for users. It will not "restore browser competition on the desktop" with this move.

The EU and Opera were not making their case for the interests of users. Surely the dismal sales figures of Windows Vista N are proof that people do not want to buy EU dictated versions. Also the Market share of FireFox despite the inclusion of IE and the fact I am using FireFox is proof that Opera is wrong. The only way for Opera to compete is to make an allience with a larger company as Mozilla has, and make a product people want, and make it free!

Lechio, on Jul 18 2009, 12:02, said:

• This is nothing more than an attempt to blackmail the European Commission and influence the opinion of Windows users in the EU. I'm sure the European Commission will take the necessary measures to protect its citizens interests in due time.

And Opera's case against Microsoft is an attempt to gain free distribution and marketing for a product people don't want, at the expense of Microsoft, under the invalidated accusation of IE having Market Dominance. If FireFox can get almost half of the Internet share, without Microsoft's assitance, then this prooves that it is the product that matters not the method of distribution.

Also with Internet Explorer being easy to deploy and manage for Enterprises, Organisations and Businesses it will always be the browser of choice there, and so will always have some degree of Market Share, perhaps if Opera were to work on their product and make it compelling to users, and enterprises, they may stand a chance.

[hdood]

statm1, on Jul 18 2009, 11:29, said:

Kinda sounds like it to me Hdood.. Looks like its pretty difficult for you too. Since this is a quote from the original poster.

I should have known actually reading the whole article would be too difficult for you. Why don't you scroll down to Opera's explanation of what they feel would be enough. Here it is in Arial black:

Opera wants the EU to order Microsoft to insert a ballot screen into Windows; the screen would offer users several browser choices that would then either be activated -- if all were pre-installed on the machine -- or downloaded and installed.

[mdtaUK]

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 12:13, said:

No, they don't. They want Microsoft to have to offer the user a list of browsers (including IE). This is even stated in the quote in the original poster, but I understand that reading is exceptionally difficult.

Mozilla and Google also support this.

I think you are misreading...

Quote

"The rendering engine will remain," Lie argued then.

Quote

Flipping a switch to simply make IE8 unavailable is not enough for Opera

Quote

Lie said that as far as Opera is concerned, turning off IE but leaving bits and pieces in Windows 7 isn't enough

Opera's Idea of a ballot screen is the only one they offer, because all they care about is publicising Opera Browser. If Microsoft said they would offer the choice of the top 4 browsers, that would satisfy Mozilla and Google, but guess what, Opera wouldn't make the list, and they would be even more ****ed off by this.

Can't you see why Opera are proposing this, its purely their business self-interests, not the interests of the Billions of Windows users throughout Europe!

[Subject Delta]

I don't think its fair at all to expect Microsoft to include other browsers with Windows, for me they have done enough. Also, removing trident from Windows would break a hell of a lot of applications

[hdood]

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:35, said:

The EU and Opera were not making their case for the interests of users. Surely the dismal sales figures of Windows Vista N are proof that people do not want to buy EU dictated versions.

It was near impossible to get, and I've asked several people if they even knew it existed. None did. Even if they had, people would have gone for the non-N version because it seemed to offer more value for money.

That case was a complete failure, and hopefully the EU has learned from it and won't let it happen that way again.

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:35, said:

And Opera's case against Microsoft [...]

It's not really "Opera's case". They're simply the ones who filed the complaint, the case is the European Council's.

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:45, said:

I think you are misreading...

I'm not, I'm just not cherry-picking lines instead of reading the whole text in context.

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:45, said:

Can't you see why Opera are proposing this, its purely their business self-interests, not the interests of the Billions of Windows users throughout Europe!

No ****, Sherlock. Of course Opera is doing it for themselves. So?

[mdtaUK]

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 12:50, said:

No ****, Sherlock. Of course Opera is doing it for themselves. So?

What right does Opera have to dictate what the people of Europe should have in their Windows 7 Editions?

What do they contribute to Europe?

How as an EU citizen do I make my opinion clear about the case, as one of the users the EU is trying to protect?

How much is all this bueracracy costing us Tax Payers?


If you believe, as you seem to, that Opera are right, then thats your view, but it is not the majority view of Europeans, and I dont appreciate the EU making judgements that negatively affect me, in my 'interests'! I believe Firefox is a great browser, is the one I use, and that is despite IE coming with Windows.

I have chosen not to use Opera browsers on the PC because I think they make a lowsey product, not because IE or FF comes with Windows. Opera needs to realise this, and stop complaining about their lot in life!

[statm1]

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 07:50, said:

I'm not, I'm just not cherry-picking lines instead of reading the whole text in context.

Umm, your cherry picking only one part of the article as well..
Ahem..

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 07:41, said:

Opera wants the EU to order Microsoft to insert a ballot screen into Windows; the screen would offer users several browser choices that would then either be activated -- if all were pre-installed on the machine -- or downloaded and installed.

[hdood]

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:55, said:

What right does Opera have to dictate what the people of Europe should have in their Windows 7 Editions?

None. They do, however, have the right to file a complaint so that the actual EC can decide whether it has any merit. It is not Opera that is doing anything. They don't secretly run the EC.

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:55, said:

I have chosen not to use Opera browsers on the PC because I think they make a lowsey product, not because IE or FF comes with Windows. Opera needs to realise this, and stop complaining about their lot in life!

I would rather put my balls in a blender than use Opera, but that still doesn't mean that there can't be validity to the complaint.

martinDTanderson, on Jul 18 2009, 11:55, said:

[...] but it is not the majority view of Europeans, and I dont appreciate the EU making judgements that negatively affect me, in my 'interests'!

How would it hurt you if Windows offered you a choice of browsers when you first logged on? Because the additional costs would end up being recovered from customers in some way? That's the only thing I can think of.

[Antaris]

macrosslover, on Jul 18 2009, 07:29, said:

so how about a Ballot Screen with Internet Explorer, Fire Fox, Safari & Chrome.....those are the major browsers aren't they??

[mdtaUK]

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 13:02, said:

None. They do, however, have the right to file a complaint so that the actual EC can decide whether it has any merit. It is not Opera that is doing anything. They don't secretly run the EC.

I never said they had no right to file a complaint, and I didn't imply they run the EC, however I do not believe the EU is being fair to both sides in this particular case, because it has yet to acknowledge the big step Microsoft has made to react to Opera's <in my view>unjustifyed</in my view> complaint.

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 13:02, said:

I would rather put my balls in a blender than use Opera, but that still doesn't mean that there can't be validity to the complaint.

I would have thought the success of Firefox and even Chrome is proof that Microsoft's Browser and bundeling is not the reason for Opera's failure.

hdood, on Jul 18 2009, 13:02, said:

How would it hurt you if Windows offered you a choice of browsers when you first logged on? Because the additional costs would end up being recovered from customers in some way? That's the only thing I can think of.

Having the 'ballot screen' is an uneccesary response to this situation, and would lead to many complications for Microsoft (product support, out of date versions), but more than that there is a moral issue. Why should Microsoft have to support Opera the company, for making a crap product. This is what Opera wants, and they are manipulating the facts to make out that the EU citizens are being hard-done-by because of Microsoft, when it is simply about providing the EC with financial recompence from Microsoft.



Basically the EU want Microsoft to pay fines

Opera want Microsoft to prop-up their company and distribute their crappy product.

[statm1]

Nice mockup Antaris.. But, MS wouldn't be caught dead offering Safari on any of their products...

[Lechio]

Quote

Based on speed, features, reliability and accessibility. these are the best of breed Browsers to give you the best Internet experience

Then why is it that IE comes first?

How about security? That's a very important feature too.

Opera fits into all of those too, where's Opera?



Nice mockup by the way.

[mdtaUK]

Antaris, on Jul 18 2009, 13:13, said:

EUBrowserSelection.jpg

Would Opera let that ballot screen go ahead, without their product included...

Also the other issues...

- What order are the browsers listed in?
- What about new browsers being released in Windows 7's lifetime...
- If the browsers are on the machine, they will be come out of date...
- How do they decide on which browsers to include?
- Who is responsible if a browser like Chrome messes up the OS?


Here is an alternative proposal. Put all the popular browsers onto Windows Update (by the website records of browser usage), including IE8, and give the user a chance to install the latest version from that when first connecting to the internet. Companies would have to provide updates, hotfixes and patches through Windows Update, and that way the list is always upto date, people can hide a browser like they can any other update so it wont pop up, and Microsoft could ensure the browsers meet basic reliablity standards, so it wont cause a machine to crash etc.

Edited by martinDTanderson, 18 July 2009 - 12:34.