Start menu may return with Windows ‘Threshold' update

Microsoft is gearing for the next update to Windows, which is reportedly called ‘Threshold’ and more details are starting to leak out about what the update will include.

The latest bit of news, while unconfirmed and subject to change, is that Microsoft may be bringing back the full Start button experience. According to Paul Thurott, the next update to Windows (important to note that he has not confirmed the name ‘threshold”) will include the option to restore the Start menu to its full glory. This is an important change from what Windows 8.1 offers which is simply a button that only provides familiarity but little functionality.

Another feature that is reportedly coming will allow you to run Modern apps in windows on the desktop. This functionality is already available via third-party applications like ModernMix (disclaimer) but being natively built-in will likely appease everyone who uses Windows.Next.

These are small, but very important updates. Specifically, both of these ‘features’ have come from feedback of consumers. It’s clear that Microsoft is back-tracking a bit on its ambitious Windows 8 deployment after harsh feedback from consumers.

Source: Paul Thurrott

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2015? Why don't they just wait. The squabbling will be over by 2015 and people will be used to the current state of the OS. MS is all over the road. Wishy - washy as you can get.

annotate said,
2015? Why don't they just wait. The squabbling will be over by 2015 and people will be used to the current state of the OS. MS is all over the road. Wishy - washy as you can get.

What is guarantee that people will gladly accept this abomination in 2015 why not 2030.

trust me neowins revenues will go up as will MSs after this update fructifies. the interest in beta OSes will shoot up again and so will the forum activity on neowin... good days will be back...
neowin was acting against its own interests by sheltering shrill opponents of pro start menu crowd.. like mr dot.

for those who love the modern UI an honest non-conflict question; if you use modern Ui say 80-90+% of the time.. you don't see the start button. what's the problem?

next, I don't shave off modern UI from the Os because I personally do not like it.. it is there, I know it is, But i don't use it. you don't see me crying about it...

chrisj1968 said,
for those who love the modern UI an honest non-conflict question; if you use modern Ui say 80-90+% of the time.. you don't see the start button. what's the problem?

next, I don't shave off modern UI from the Os because I personally do not like it.. it is there, I know it is, But i don't use it. you don't see me crying about it...

The problem is the concern that Microsoft might decide to do away with the Modern side to the desktop OS. Although in my case, it's the Start Screen I'm worried about. While I like the apps, and love that I can use them on my desktop computer, laptop, and Surface, it's really the Screen that's the best element of 8 for me. So I'm really worried about its future if this rumor turns out to be true. I don't want to be stuck with the Menu again. 17 years of that crap is enough.

If we have to have a Start Menu, I'd prefer it to be a Start Screen-like design. The wall/column of text needs to stay dead.

Several people have said in this thread that MS killing Metro is unlikely, but what's to stop them from taking all the "It doesn't belong on a desktop" talk to heart as well?

Edited by DConnell, Dec 10 2013, 4:44pm :

I love how people were crucifying Microsoft for taking away the start menu in the first place, and now they're crucifying Microsoft again for possibly putting it back in....

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Reverend Spam said,
I love how people were crucifying Microsoft for taking away the start menu in the first place, and now they're crucifying Microsoft again for possibly putting it back in....

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I think they are dammed because they didn't give a choice in the first place, People keep being sarcastic saying they should bring bring back Progman but tell you what, create a folder on your XP\Vista\7 Desktop call it bob's apps drag your short cuts into it and have them on large view and you have a similar experience to progman ( I don't do this but have seen people that still do because it works for them, so the start menu concept\progman concept can still work side by side maybe there is a place to add the start screen one in there too and they can live together to let people work\play how they want.

I'm one of those that prefers Program Manager to the Start Menu, even to this day. I'm not sure if I'd take it over the Start Screen, but it's certainly worlds better than the Menu. To me the Screen feels like an updated PM.

If I had to choose an old UI element to return, Progman's the one I'd pick. And I'm not being sarcastic in the least.

At least Google keeps it on the 'right' track, seems they are rather aggressive on keeping Youtube with Google+ comments integration as is.

Microsoft with Windows 8 with their Start Screen, then Start Menu ambition? Not so much.

"True innovation is to seek and find your own path. While our competition is moving forward, we have found a new path, rarely tried before. We go backwards. Follow us on this exciting journey with Windows 8.2 Codename 'Backtrack'! And don't use Google. Now, let's go!"

Talk about true split personality issues. Certain comments throughout the Internet suggested that the split personality was between the two UI (desktop and Modern) being too differential.
While in my opinion the split personality comes when the company just can't even decide what they want anymore, they intended to do one thing, but have to go into regression with it and change it back due to lack of backbones.


"It's not bad form to add more options, but why couldn't they have done this in the first place with Win8? No-one's begrudging their desire to improve Win8, but this is one improvement that need not even have been required now if the start screen had been introduced as an option right at the outset."
---
They feared nobody would keep the new stuff turned on.

" No-one's begrudging their desire to improve Win8, but this is one improvement that need not even have been required now if the start screen had been introduced as an option right at the outset. That resistance to losing the start menu and being forced to go cold turkey without a gradual changeover was what pi**ed off all those who have been complaining vociferously on various fora."
---
Indeed.

Oh and I also agree with explorer being a downgrade since xp\2003, but don't worry things are prettier now.

I see a lot of people here claiming that they will get Win 8 if the start menu is added back. I wonder how many will actually do that, or if they will just move on to the next issue they have.

Its easy to talk the talk.

I'm sure if MS can be guaranteed millions in sales by just adding a start menu, they will do it.

I'll be getting rid of Windows 8 if they bring the start menu back and force it on users. This is Microsofts last chance to grow some balls and show they can innovate without putting their tails between their legs and running back to a tired old UI which was losing ground to mobile devices anyway.

Sicarius123 said,
I'll be getting rid of Windows 8 if they bring the start menu back and force it on users. This is Microsofts last chance to grow some balls and show they can innovate without putting their tails between their legs and running back to a tired old UI which was losing ground to mobile devices anyway.
What are you going to run then? I know earlier you stated that you would go to Apple. I run Mavericks on 3 computers and there isn't a Start Screen unless you think launch pad is a start screen. What Apple has done is what Microsoft should have done. Mavericks has been optimized with many under the hood improvements. Yet it still looks familiar enough that long time Mac OS users can easily start using their system just like they did before. Microsoft did the opposite and basically tried to strong arm it's users into the Modern UI.

Sicarius123 said,
I'll be getting rid of Windows 8 if they bring the start menu back and force it on users. This is Microsofts last chance to grow some balls and show they can innovate without putting their tails between their legs and running back to a tired old UI which was losing ground to mobile devices anyway.

Really? Why would you leave an entire OS over one change?

And yes, I would be one of those that would purchase Windows 8. The problem is, I have Start 8 instead. If I did not have Start8, I would not have used Windows 8 to begin with.

Chris Pirillo (no matter what your opinions of him are) said it perfectly when Windows 8 first had a public beta. "When you are in metro, you should stay in metro. When you are in desktop, you should stay in desktop." The start menu should have been there at the very beginning (and yes it should be defaulted to ON). There is no reason to have this flip-flopping around.

Princess Katie Pixie said,
Once they add the start menu back, the start screen goes extinct as well as all of the 3rd party start menu programs. =D

Wrong I used to love win7,now using 8.1 I would never go back too 7.
I used to always put down 8 saying exactly what you are saying "**** ui metro"
I could not be without the apps now ))
It is a good idea that microsoft will bring the start menu back just for you guys that can't go with any changes in there life,I bet your still on Xp )
but hey all to there own,,if you happy with what you got do not diss things you have no understanding in .

its not so much the loss of the start button, its this everything must look same metro interface crap, i get why they want a uniform UI, but in reality or practical experience it just wont work. Windows 8 is perfect for tablets and other touch devices, bu with a mouse and kb it felt clunky and needed more clicks to achieve the same thing or felt like there was a loss of functionality and massive waste of full screen app that is mostly a solid colour

If add the Start menu. Add the ability add applications (eg weather) on your desktop (but in the same form as on the Start screen, but not at the cost of half of the screen). Creating a shortcut to the application (for example solitaire) on the desktop and opens the application windows Make loading applications in tray just as fast as on Windows 7, because on Windows 8 even on SSD applications loading in the tray with some delay. Then I'll give her a chance to go on my computer. Sorry for my English.

Never had any problem with missing "Start menu" on Windows 8 and I don't think people uses start menu as much as they cry about it. You rarely need to access it and most of the function is available on Windows 8.1 with a right click. (The only major complain about Windows 8 is that on start screen, all program section is messy as hell...Previous OS kept them all organized and neat inside a folder, unlike Windows 8/8.1).

Microsoft also failed to make a good integration of Metro/Modern, some serious work and design change is needed to make it less clicking and more multitasking usability. Kuddos to Microsoft for ironing out few things on Windows 8.1 but it's far from being solid OS. Full Window=Only good for tablet, I hope something gets done about it as well.

P.S --Until Desktop/Laptop dies completely, people will never be fond of half baked OS or touch based on Desktop/laptop.

I like how if the option were there from the start then none of the controversy would ever have taken place.

But then again...what else would we have argued about on tech forums for the last two years?

I could see myself reinstalling Windows 8 and be happy if they bring back the Start Menu. Microsoft realizing the Start Screen was a joke... after 2 years... better late than never

It had best come much sooner than that, or Windows-7 will be around for a much longer time than MS would like to see. Pandering to the touch-centric table users doesn't endear oneself to the serious users on laptops or desktops.

TsarNikky said,
It had best come much sooner than that, or Windows-7 will be around for a much longer time than MS would like to see. Pandering to the touch-centric table users doesn't endear oneself to the serious users on laptops or desktops.

Here is the kicker - every person I know who bought a touch based laptop or desktop has stopped using the touch functionality. The novelty wears off and the impracticality of touch based devices on the desktop and laptop come through. Apple showed how impractical it was with the expansion of touch pad into the desktop work but hey it appears that Microsoft believes that by magically adding touch functionality that people will all upgrade because of a single novelty. Maybe Microsoft is finally waking up and getting back to the fundamentals of what people want their computer to do.

I think a live tile based start menu would be sweet!

The MS fanboys here are obviously butt hurt here. I don't know why. Just, they are always butt hurt for some reason. I think it's because they've spent the better part of the past 2 years defending the start screen.

Shadrack said,
I think a live tile based start menu would be sweet!

The MS fanboys here are obviously butt hurt here. I don't know why. Just, they are always butt hurt for some reason. I think it's because they've spent the better part of the past 2 years defending the start screen.


A live tile based start menu? Are you mad?

I have seen enough here to see that if the start menu is brought back and it gains anything from metro, it will be shot down so quick and the pitch forks will be back out.

No, what is needed is the Win 7 start menu. No changes, nothing that relates to the new bits in 8, just the stock Win 7 start menu.

Shadrack said,
I think a live tile based start menu would be sweet!

It would be functional at least, which is more than I can say for the traditional version.

* sigh* now its going to be more like windows 7 while they are at it bring back dos and remove the gui because you know dos was so much better to everyone complaining windows 8 was to hard to learn

I've never seen a Neowin news article with this many comments (270 at the time of writing). I guess it shows how many want (or have an opinion of) the Start menu.

Ian William said,
I've never seen a Neowin news article with this many comments (270 at the time of writing). I guess it shows how many want (or have an opinion of) the Start menu.
Agree. The lack of a Start Menu has been a hot debate on many websites, not only Neowin. You can even see the comments on retail websites that allow you to leave a review such as Amazon or Newegg. Its been a hot water cooler topic at many meetings I've attended in the past year. It's caught the attention of Microsoft and I believe they will eventually make things right.

Sure are a crapton of comments here, considering there are maybe only 4-5 different things people are saying over and over. That's what Like is for, folks.

I just doubt all the people shouting about the start menu really care at all. How many people, really, will install Windows 8 with a start menu that haven't installed it yet because it lacks one? I don't give a crap about anyone who speaks up with an opinion in here--no comments on Neowin ever reflect reality meaningfully. Give me a survey or give me nothing.

This isn't nearly as big a deal as it's being made out to be. The far bigger issue is getting people to buy computers in the first place. The PC Master Race crowd will continue to live in their bubble of convincing themselves they're the majority, but there just hasn't been anything new or interesting happening within traditional desktop paradigms. A desktop computer bought today will be able to do mouse-and-keyboard computing for 6-8 years without any further purchases needed. Why would the industry want that? Why would a market encourage that? The desktop PC is at the threshold of being as much an appliance as my dishwasher.

So Windows will add a little more back to making the OS appeal to users addicted to a paradigm that isn't going anywhere. There's nothing wrong with that, but it really could've just stayed as nothing more than a feature pack add-on. It's going to do absolutely nothing to advance the industry, and I'm bored of tech enthusiasts who only seem enthusiastic about stagnation.

wingliston said,
Having this option will be great. So users can choose how they want to use Windows.
He's a great post. It's all about choice. Not completely axing a function and alienating your customers.

As long as it is just an option and they keep the Start Screen and metro environment intact, fine by me. I'm all into Windows 8.1 now. I actually love it. I don't need the old start menu back, but if it makes the haters happy, it's OK to me.

xankazo said,
but if it makes the haters happy, it's OK to me.

So disliking something = hater?

Talk about simplemindedness.

It is kind of annoying when starting up to have to click the tile to start a program and then navigate back to the Start screen and do it all over again, not very intuitive

Steven P. said,
It is kind of annoying when starting up to have to click the tile to start a program and then navigate back to the Start screen and do it all over again, not very intuitive

It's the same motions when using the start menu...?

Start > Click pinned item
Start Screen > Click pinned item

Maybe they're just saying more Start Menu features will be coming to the Start Screen? Paul Thurrott isn't the most reliable of sources anymore.

I just don't get how this wasn't in from the start (no pun intended) as I just seriously can't see Enterprise clients being keen to adopt W8 without it.

If true, it had better be a free update like 8.1!

Steven P. said,
Oh god pls just let us pin tiles to the frigging desktop!!!!!!!!

I don't think that would be a good idea. some people here would absolutely lose it if they saw a single tile on the desktop.

Remember Active Desktop from 98/99? Live Tiles basically do the same thing while showing information right there in your working environment, who stays in the Start screen?

This just backs up my reasoning why Microsoft should just dump the modern UI from the Desktop OS and concentrate on a All-in-one mobile device OS. They'll never move forward until this happens.

Nahaz said,
This just backs up my reasoning why Microsoft should just dump the modern UI from the Desktop OS and concentrate on a All-in-one mobile device OS. They'll never move forward until this happens.

This is exactly the kind of comment that makes this rumor so worrying to me. Modern, in particular the Start Screen, works perfectly well on the desktop, and I don't want to see it dumped. For some it won't be enough to get the Menu back - they want the new UI removed from the desktop as well. And unlike the Start Menu, Modern won't be easily replaced by a small utility for those of us that like it.

DConnell said,

This is exactly the kind of comment that makes this rumor so worrying to me. Modern, in particular the Start Screen, works perfectly well on the desktop,

But what's the point of it on a desktop, really?

Right now you live between two GUI's, which are meant to be one. You have shortcuts that install on one and run in the other GUI. You have preferences that can be set in both as well as many other options. It's just confusing to the average computer user out there. Right now it's a mess. Yes, it works but you are forever swapping in and out of one to the other.

What Steve Jobs did at Apple with keeping OSX and iOS seperate was the right approach. He didn't try and stick iOS on the iMac, nor did he try and run OSX on the iPhone or iPad. Right now Microsoft is. They preferred to sit on the OS fence instead of picking a boundary for their OS to work in. They said, "Let's run Windows on everything"

I like the modern UI. I think it's great, for the right device, and a Desktop Computer isn't the right device IMO.

Nahaz said,

But what's the point of it on a desktop, really?

Right now you live between two GUI's, which are meant to be one. You have shortcuts that install on one and run in the other GUI. You have preferences that can be set in both as well as many other options. It's just confusing to the average computer user out there. Right now it's a mess. Yes, it works but you are forever swapping in and out of one to the other.

I like the modern UI. I think it's great, for the right device, and a Desktop Computer isn't the right device IMO.

What's the point of retaining the traditional "desktop" design, really? Personally, I find for most things Modern suits me just fine. The sole reason I have any desktop programs on my system at all anymore is the lack of Modern equivalents. I don't need to waste time arranging windows - I much prefer the tiled system Modern uses. It's a lot cleaner IMO.

In fact, one of my wishes for the next version of Windows is the ability to run desktop programs in Modern so I don't have to drop into "virtual 7 mode". To me the desktop is only needed for legacy apps. If more Modern versions of my programs were released, I wouldn't miss it at all.

I like the idea of being able to run the same programs (within reason) on all my devices, of my desktop, laptop, tablet and phone being components of a system, rather than individual, largely unrelated devices. It's a powerful idea, both for personal use and potentially for businesses.

Now, I can work on a writing project on my laptop, sync it to Skydrive, and if I get an idea for it elsewhere, pull out my Surface RT (rather than needing to transport the laptop, and work on it some more, using the RT version of Word, in a virtually identical environment. (Granted for the moment, it's on the desktop on both devices, but once the Modern version of Office comes out, there goes the biggest reason for me to use the desktop.)

Or I can rent a movie through XBox video on my desktop (or even on my 360), take my Surface to my cousin's house, connect it to her network and play the movie on her projector.

But to achieve all this Microsoft has to convince people to let go of their two-decade old ways of doing things.

The desktop should be relegated to legacy use, like DOS programs were in the days of 3.x/95, not dragged back to front and center.

I agree 100% with what you are saying. What I was trying to convey was we need to get rid of the Desktop UI from the modern UI. For one, it's slowing down software developers converting their legacy software to the Modern UI.

As I have stated many times before, Keep the old style Windows for Enterprise and Desktop environments. Move the modern UI completely over to mobile devices and the Xbox. Don't drag the old Windows to the Tablet environment. There is no need for it if the software developers all jump on board, otherwise it's just a repeat of the old 64 bit issues we had in the early days.

So basically you have just cemented what I have already been saying. The only part that we probably disagree on is dumping the modern UI from the desktop.

I have a surface pro and I have yet to use the modern ui for anything other than to show off its capabilities with a touch environment. I am a desktop user. My home desktop has not once used the modern ui for anything other than pc settings at best.

Do I need a start menu back? No.

The start button on the other hand, was a welcome'd return. Good thing to do on their part.

I'm ok with the unified environment, but the hardest part is explaining the fact that their are two different worlds to the OS. Microsoft needs to config it in a manor that allows the user to choose, all desktop, standard, or all modern. Kinda like how server does with gui vs no-gui.

As of right now, any client of mine that gets windows 8 (8.1) just wants it to function like their old machine. I try to sell the modern ui, but its just too involved on a desktop to learn. Its a tuff sell to bring something to a new generation.

I hope microsoft adds a "gpu" tab to task manager to show much much gpu and gpu memory is being used like they have with the cpu tab, network tab etc. That is something i would like as you can easily see if gpu is hardware accelerating applications, would be handy.

Not that I don't like the Start Screen, I just think it was very poorly implemented. The desktop experience and the "modern ui" tablet experience are two very different ones. Now first off I will say, that yes having all of your desktop apps pinned to the taskbar is still preferred, for me. The problem is that transition from desktop to start screen to get anything done other than launching an app is very tedious. Being that everything on the start screen is designed around swiping it makes the mouse experience that much harder, not trackpad but standard mouse.
Obviously there are different solutions like allow a standard option to turn the start menu on or off or better yet 2 versions of Windows 8. Tablet and Desktop.
However given that Microsoft wants one version, I'd stay, keep the start menu, but reduce the amount on it. It really doesn't need to have apps pinned on the side if you have the taskbar and start screen. Allow the start menu to expand to the start screen or better yet, have the start screen be an overlay similar to the launch pad on OS X.

I guess I just feel that if you add the start menu back with the current state of Windows 8, there will be a lot of redundancy and possibly allow of the start screen to never be seen like Windows Media Center. They both can work together, but with some minor changes in the whole Windows UI

Sweet, although that's a very long way off.
I'm trying to get used to the START screen since I don't want to have to run a separate program to add the original start menu.
The START screen definitely makes it take longer to do functions done on Win 7, many more clicks.
All in all though, I am lovin most of what Win 8.1 has to offer, especially speed wise.
APPs are kinda lame though, compared to Android anyways. But some are a tad bit useful.

Some of you people who think the Start Menu is/was the evil must not have seen a Joe Schmoe trying to use Windows 8 and being frozen in their tracks when there is no Start button/menu. I see it every day working on machines for customers. These people are by no means *ever* going to be power users. Some of these Joe Schmoes can literally and only just barely know how to turn a computer on. All those videos of Microsoft making it easy for morons to even use are pure horse hockey.

But hey, it keeps making me nice tidy sums of $$$, thanks Microsoft! lulz

It's not about good vs. evil, but about familiarity, plain and simple. There were plenty of those Joe Schmoes waving their hands around in despair back when Win95 was released, I can tell you that.

The same people who were frozen in their tracks when Office went from menu's to ribbons? Why not can all new versions of Windows and Office, we'll just bring back XP and Office 2003!

Eric said,
I can seem them blowing their attempt at the portable market if they do this.

I don't see why. Other than a few unreasonable nut jobs almost everyone I know who hates the start screen on a desktop is extremely comfortable with it on a tablet with touch.

Well, this should make some people happy...

I really don't see the need myself. The Start Screen works much better once you get used to it...

"These are small, but very important updates."

If they were such small changes, WTF didn't MS include them as options at launch instead of forcing that trash down our throat?

ValeS said,
"These are small, but very important updates."

If they were such small changes, WTF didn't MS include them as options at launch instead of forcing that trash down our throat?

Because MS knew that Tile interface will have no future if they did not force feed to users. Titles are such an ugly concept and completely useless on desktop. They tried to leverage their Desktop market with this abomination and miserably failed.

ice-dogg said,
I never understood why people use the start menu... the only thing you need is the search field.

Start screen is such a old way of doing things. Start menu is the future like phoenix.

Auditor said,
Start screen is such a old way of doing things. Start menu is the future like phoenix.

Except you forget one thing, the Start Menu is a decade old and dead just like Program Manager!!

neo158 said,

Except you forget one thing, the Start Menu is a decade old and dead just like Program Manager!!


You must've missed the memo where Windows 7 sales are still continuing and Windows 8 sales have been less than stellar.

The fact that this is even being considered by MS just goes to show that they're listening to the feedback.

This is great news. Not only is the Start Menu coming back, but all the obnoxious fandrones and their "zomg, the Start Menu is never coming back, get used to it!" will have to eat their words.

Let's see if all the jackasses that complained about the start screen actually buy Windows 8.x now. I doubt it. They'll find something else to complain about.

TMYW said,
Let's see if all the jackasses that complained about the start screen actually buy Windows 8.x now. I doubt it. They'll find something else to complain about.

Yes, if this happens I'd love to see what Win8's market share looks say 6 months down the line as compared to Win7. Most of the people complaining will stick to Win7 I'm sure, despite protesting that the lack of a start menu was the sole thing keeping them from purchase. Anyway, we'll see...

The way Windows 8 presents itself should alter based on the hardware it runs on. If you have a large non-touch screen then the interface should adapt to accomendate this. Basically the startscreen should become a startmenu and the hidden UI elements should become available in a taskbar of sorts.

Only if the default choices can be overridden - I have no desire to see a Start Menu on any of my machines, unless it's a desktop interpretation of the Start Screen.

Why don't you just set Windows 8.1 to boot to desktop and for the start menu to open the all apps list instead of the start screen? You can already do this now.

DConnell said,
Only if the default choices can be overridden - I have no desire to see a Start Menu on any of my machines, unless it's a desktop interpretation of the Start Screen.

Naturally, especially if you do have a touch monitor. I like Microsoft's approach to personal computing. I like how they want one OS across multiple platforms. Its just that this OS needs an UI that can adapt to the various formfactors it runs on. It would be really need if they take all th design elements from the toasts to the live tiles and are able to organize them in different functional orders depending on your set-up.

Sicarius123 said,
Why don't you just set Windows 8.1 to boot to desktop and for the start menu to open the all apps list instead of the start screen? You can already do this now.

I personally love my startscreen and prefer it over the desktop. However not everyone feels this way. And one a lerge non-touch monitor I can understand that the startscreen feels unnecessarily large and harder to navigate then a desktop (particularly the hidden UI elements). Since Microsoft is considering one OS for phones and tablets they will have to think about how t adapt the UI to these two different formfactors. I hope they will also consider the different needs of PC users and have the UI adapt hen the screen goes beyond 13'' or is non-touch to create a more desktop-like experience.

Ronnet said,

Naturally, especially if you do have a touch monitor.

A touch monitor has nothing to do with it. The wall/column of text that was the Start Menu has always been an impractical, inefficient and unattractive choice for a program launcher for a graphical interface IMO. The Screen is just much a better design, regardless of the form factor.

I have a Windows 8 hybrid, Windows Phone 8 and Xbox One at the moment. If Microsoft brings back the POS start menu I haven't used for anything but typing a search term since goddamn Windows XP and forces it on us I will be getting rid of all my Microsoft devices and going full Apple.

I'm sick of Microsoft crawling up the arse of goddamn legacy lovers who hate progress and improvement. This is why I left the backwards IT industry for something that looks to the future instead of clings to the past. I couldn't deal with supporting one more single computer running XP with half the "new" features turned off and Office 2003, but it seems the same people keeping enterprise in this mindset are ruining the new and improved Microsoft.

Sicarius123 said,
I have a Windows 8 hybrid, Windows Phone 8 and Xbox One at the moment. If Microsoft brings back the POS start menu I haven't used for anything but typing a search term since goddamn Windows XP and forces it on us I will be getting rid of all my Microsoft devices and going full Apple.

I'm sick of Microsoft crawling up the arse of goddamn legacy lovers who hate progress and improvement. This is why I left the backwards IT industry for something that looks to the future instead of clings to the past. I couldn't deal with supporting one more single computer running XP with half the "new" features turned off and Office 2003, but it seems the same people keeping enterprise in this mindset are ruining the new and improved Microsoft.

So anything which is unneeded radical design change is a future for you. MS will do the right thing to get rid of this start screen ugly tile concept and bring back the real start menu which many people love.

Sicarius123 said,
I have a Windows 8 hybrid, Windows Phone 8 and Xbox One at the moment. If Microsoft brings back the POS start menu I haven't used for anything but typing a search term since goddamn Windows XP and forces it on us I will be getting rid of all my Microsoft devices and going full Apple.

You do realize this will be most likely an option that you can disable. Its not like anyone will force you to use the Start Menu if it returns...unlike what MS did with the Start Screen.

Sicarius123 said,
I have a Windows 8 hybrid, Windows Phone 8 and Xbox One at the moment. If Microsoft brings back the POS start menu I haven't used for anything but typing a search term since goddamn Windows XP and forces it on us I will be getting rid of all my Microsoft devices and going full Apple.

I'm sick of Microsoft crawling up the arse of goddamn legacy lovers who hate progress and improvement. This is why I left the backwards IT industry for something that looks to the future instead of clings to the past. I couldn't deal with supporting one more single computer running XP with half the "new" features turned off and Office 2003, but it seems the same people keeping enterprise in this mindset are ruining the new and improved Microsoft.

Bold move dude. You are going over to Apple for the start menu coming back to Windows? I did the opposite. I run Mavericks on an iMac, a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro. I switched because of Windows 8. However, my gaming machine I built in July works wonderfully with Windows 7.

Auditor said,

So anything which is unneeded radical design change is a future for you. MS will do the right thing to get rid of this start screen ugly tile concept and bring back the real start menu which many people love.

Tell you what lets regress windows all the way back to Program Manager, that would solve it for everyone, no Modern UI and no Start Menu!!

JHBrown said,
Bold move dude. You are going over to Apple for the start menu coming back to Windows? I did the opposite. I run Mavericks on an iMac, a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro. I switched because of Windows 8. However, my gaming machine I built in July works wonderfully with Windows 7.

Yeah its hard to believe you guys would make a complete platform switch over one part of a new OS.

Something tells me you guys already wanted to make the switch and decided that this was your ticket out.

It would take a lot more then a full screen start menu to get me to just up and leave all products from said company

techbeck said,

You do realize this will be most likely an option that you can disable. Its not like anyone will force you to use the Start Menu if it returns...unlike what MS did with the Start Screen.


What, like the option to turn off the start button I don't need because I have one on my keyboard and one on my tablet screen? Oh wait, no, they forced that back on us.

JHBrown said,
Bold move dude. You are going over to Apple for the start menu coming back to Windows? I did the opposite. I run Mavericks on an iMac, a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro. I switched because of Windows 8. However, my gaming machine I built in July works wonderfully with Windows 7.

Windows 8 is how I've been wanting to use a computer for the last 10 years. If they turn around and throw it out for legacy enterprise style crap I don't see a reason to stay with Microsoft. They'll be dead in another 10 years if they're not willing to innovate with everyone jumping ship to Android/iOS and MacOS.

It's Micosofts own fault all the tech nerds are screaming murder over a useless start menu for letting XP continue to be sold and supported for far too long. Why don't we just bring back Program Manager while we're at it?

My $0.02 worth:

1. Put a complete start menu button/menu back on the desktop. No half-assed start button w/no menu.

2. Allow users to turn the start button/menu visibility on/off via an option. That way those who don't even want to see the icon (heaven forbid they even see an icon!) on their desktop can choose so. Those that want to see it can, whether they use it or not.

3. Why is this so hard for the numbnuts at Microsoft to understand this? (esp. #2)

You can't make the connection? People are clinging to anything antiquated regarding Windows. China wants Microsoft to continue support for Windows XP. A certain vocal group of users are trying to force Microsoft into going back to something they dropped two versions ago.

Then those same people will lambaste them for not keeping up with the times. Let old things die off.

Raa said,
I don't see how that's even remotely relevant.

Why not, since MS seems to be in the pandering mood? If people who didn't like the start screen are having their complaints heard, the XP lovers might as well have their wish granted too. I know lots of people who don't like Win7 as compared to XP, and XP users far outnumber Win8 users.

I agree with Raa. How is this relevant? The start menu is a UI element. They are not thinking about bringing the entire codebase of Windows 7 over to Windows 8

The only people I have met that hate Windows 8 because of the new start screen didn't even use the start menu to begin with. Misguided hate is funny. Win 8 is a much better product than 7, if you can look past the crap smeared on your rose colored glasses.

Mortis said,
Little by little, Windows 8 is turning into ... Windows 7.

LOL @ Microsoft's grand Metro vision (bullsh*t)

Not. Even. Close.

Please don't. It's not an "experience". It's a remnant of days gone by, and it requires way more mouse clicks to use than the full start screen.

Raa said,
Then don't experience it - don't turn the option on.

There won't be an option it'll be forced on everyone and who are you to tell me or anyone else how they should use windows?

neo158 said,

There won't be an option it'll be forced on everyone and who are you to tell me or anyone else how they should use windows?


It won't be forced, stop the FUD.

I'm not telling anyone how to use Windows.
You decide how you want to use it, and set it up accordingly given the freedom of choice that will hopefully be provided by Microsoft in the update - everyone wins.

Raa said,
In your opinion.

What a ridiculous and unnecessary comment. How could his personal opinion not have been anything but his own? Did he claim that he was speaking for others?

Romero said,

What a ridiculous and unnecessary comment. How could his personal opinion not have been anything but his own? Did he claim that he was speaking for others?


He made a generalisation saying "no Start button needed", therefore it should be noted it was his personal opinion.
That's the catch with generalisations.

Raa said,

therefore it should be noted it was his personal opinion.

Which he did, or did you not see his very first sentence? That's what makes your comment entirely redundant, trying to point out something he did himself.

Wow, 120 comments in less than an hour! Goes to show you the mistake Microsoft made by just axing the Start Menu instead of giving users a choice.

How does the number of comments correlate to what you see as a mistake by Microsoft? I see plenty of comments against the return of a start menu.

Plenty of people who passionately hate the start menu, think it is pointless, and hadn't used it except to type a search of what they wanted since XP. Anyone who clicked "all programs" in the last 8+ years have been using windows wrong.

COKid said,
I see plenty of comments against the return of a start menu.

I see plenty for. Glass half full, glass half empty...

Sicarius123 said,
Anyone who clicked "all programs" in the last 8+ years have been using windows wrong.

And who are you to say how Windows "should" be used?

Sicarius123 said,
Plenty of people who passionately hate the start menu, think it is pointless, and hadn't used it except to type a search of what they wanted since XP. Anyone who clicked "all programs" in the last 8+ years have been using windows wrong.

Also sprach Zarathustra...

I'm the guy who never clicks all programs, and allows Microsoft to monitor my usage statistics. Guess they took that into account when they created Windows 8?

Raa said,

I see plenty for. Glass half full, glass half empty...


And who are you to say how Windows "should" be used?

Please divulge and share YOUR great wads of wisdom and answer your own question??

chrisj1968 said,

Please divulge and share YOUR great wads of wisdom and answer your own question??


See my post above.

I recently got a call from a customer who had bought a windows 8 machine a month ago. She said was almost ready to get rid of it. She said it would take her hours to figure out how to open word each time she wanted to use it. She had never been able to find the documents that best buy had moved to her new computer.

Installed Classic Shell and she was right at home.

Just got a call from an older women looking to buy a new computer. She was asking about windows 7, she said she heard really horrible things about windows 8 how it's hard to use (I hear this all the time) .. she said she has used her husbands computer which is windows 7 and had a few issues adapting from her XP machine.

sorry, but the majority of the average users really miss the start menu.

I get people stopping by my desk almost weekly. Normally complaints about buying a new computer and using Windows 8. I tell them about the replacement menus out there and I never hear back from them.

warwagon said,
I recently got a call from a customer who had bought a windows 8 machine a month ago. She said was almost ready to get rid of it. She said it would take her hours to figure out how to open word each time she wanted to use it. She had never been able to find the documents that best buy had moved to her new computer.

Installed Classic Shell and she was right at home.

Just got a call from an older women looking to buy a new computer. She was asking about windows 7, she said she heard really horrible things about windows 8 how it's hard to use (I hear this all the time) .. she said she has used her husbands computer which is windows 7 and had a few issues adapting from her XP machine.

sorry, but the majority of the average users really miss the start menu.

This post just about sums it up. People here seem to forget that we are not average users. What warwagon posted is the experience many consumers have when they boot up a Windows 8 system.

warwagon said,
I recently got a call from a customer who had bought a windows 8 machine a month ago. She said was almost ready to get rid of it. She said it would take her hours to figure out how to open word each time she wanted to use it. She had never been able to find the documents that best buy had moved to her new computer.

Installed Classic Shell and she was right at home.

Just got a call from an older women looking to buy a new computer. She was asking about windows 7, she said she heard really horrible things about windows 8 how it's hard to use (I hear this all the time) .. she said she has used her husbands computer which is windows 7 and had a few issues adapting from her XP machine.

sorry, but the majority of the average users really miss the start menu.

And instead you couldn't walk them through the new Start Screen.... because...?

And most of the people I've shown how to use the Start Screen prefer it to the Menu, and use a mix of Metro and desktop programs. I think a lot of people's resistance to the new design is "My computer geek friend hates it so . . ."

Since I'm positive when I present it, my friends take to it very readily. My 75 year old Mom was using it with no problems in half an hour.

It's all in how the change is presented.

Dot Matrix said,

And instead you couldn't walk them through the new Start Screen.... because...?


It's a mess. For the record, I DON'T encourage people to use Start menu replacement apps because I don't like to get dependent on those sort of things. There are several people that I have shown how to use the new Start Screen. Only a few weeks ago I was showing one of them how to do something totally unrelated on their computer. While they were in the Start screen, they clicked the button to show all programs. And when the whole screen was littered with icons, they commented about how awful that looked.

With that I totally agree.

Chugworth said,

It's And when the whole screen was littered with icons, they commented about how awful that looked.

With that I totally agree.

Also commonly referred to as a "CLUSTER ****!"

this is exactly what the common man wants from his pc : convenience and familiarity. No wants to finds GUi elements that have been hidden all over the place. Same case with my parents, and sisters, they absolutely hated W8. had to put Xubuntu back on my mom's laptop. People want to just get on with what they want to do, no unnecessarily learn nonsense.

Dot Matrix said,

And instead you couldn't walk them through the new Start Screen.... because...?

because, just maybe they didn't like or want to? LOL....

chrisj1968 said,

because, just maybe they didn't like or want to? LOL....

"LOL?" Really? Techies should be objective when dealing with customers. Not pushing them into a certain direction just because "they don't want to."

Dot Matrix said,

"LOL?" Really? Techies should be objective when dealing with customers. Not pushing them into a certain direction just because "they don't want to."

thank you.. you just proved my point. I appreciate your honesty.. now we are in agreeance for once.

Raa said,
Then like the minority of users like yourself, you will have the choice not to use it.

I like how people are so damn confident about this, as if it's a done deal. I'll believe it when I see it.

Romero said,

I like how people are so damn confident about this, as if it's a done deal. I'll believe it when I see it.


I never said it was a done deal, but I can be almost certain it won't be a forced option should it return.
Like you, i'll believe it when I see it...

I think its funny that as MS improves Windows 8, it only serves to antagonize people online even more. Simply adding a new ui option is considered a reason to attack MS or to talk about how terrible Win 8 is and how terrible metro is, etc, etc. Adding this does not diminish Windows 8, nor does it take away from what they are doing with Metro.

You guys must be new to software development and to the history of MS OS releases. MS may have been trying new things this time around, but they seem to be following a similar pattern to past releases.

Suddenly its bad form to add in more options for the end user (options that some have asked for) and it makes MS look 'Lost' or without direction. Its a freaking menu! Geez guys, you would think something drastic was happening.


The only response that make sense to me when hearing this rumor is:

Great, more options for everyone. That's it, end of story.

trooper11 said,

Suddenly its bad form to add in more options for the end user (options that some have asked for) and it makes MS look 'Lost' or without direction. Its a freaking menu! Geez guys, you would think something drastic was happening.

Don't get me wrong, I love more options too, and with successive Windows releases I've actually seen the _opposite_ happening. Win7's explorer was definitely a step down in usability as compared to XP's (nav pane jump bug, have to keep pressing Enter to change dirs, status bar removed so free space not easily visible, stupid "Details" pane with arbitrary 15 file limit, options for modifying file type icons/actions removed and I could go on and on).

It's not bad form to add more options, but why couldn't they have done this in the first place with Win8? No-one's begrudging their desire to improve Win8, but this is one improvement that need not even have been required now if the start screen had been introduced as an option right at the outset. That resistance to losing the start menu and being forced to go cold turkey without a gradual changeover was what pi**ed off all those who have been complaining vociferously on various fora. How does all this backtracking not make them look desperate or lost? Clearly Sinofsky & co. didn't anticipate the sort of backlash they got to the new UI, and now they're scrambling to add _back_ an option they removed, not a new option altogether. As for nothing drastic happening, how is the removal of the start menu and introduction of the start screen and Metro UI not a drastic change, as is this (rumored) resurrection? And WTF does being new to software development have to do with anything, as if that gives one some special insight into why MS did this and why they are gonna (or might) backtrack? Software developers are as confused about what MS has been doing of late (constant flip-flops instead of picking something and sticking with it if they truly believe that's the way to go) as anyone else, and a lot of them don't care for the start screen either.

trooper11 said,
I think its funny that as MS improves Windows 8, it only serves to antagonize people online even more. Simply adding a new ui option is considered a reason to attack MS or to talk about how terrible Win 8 is and how terrible metro is, etc, etc. Adding this does not diminish Windows 8, nor does it take away from what they are doing with Metro.

You guys must be new to software development and to the history of MS OS releases. MS may have been trying new things this time around, but they seem to be following a similar pattern to past releases.

Suddenly its bad form to add in more options for the end user (options that some have asked for) and it makes MS look 'Lost' or without direction. Its a freaking menu! Geez guys, you would think something drastic was happening.


The only response that make sense to me when hearing this rumor is:

Great, more options for everyone. That's it, end of story.

Then you obviously haven't been using windows as long as I have because every time Microsoft add something, they take something away.

Trust me, they'll add the decade old start menu paradigm back in to shut up the whining and take the Modern UI out completely.

Even if this is true, I will still be sticking with Win7 unless I can disable EVERY LAST bit of the disaster that is Metro. If I have to see one ugly, nasty tile, I will keep running Win7.

Lord Method Man said,
What, you don't love the convenience of having your Available Networks List take up half the screen?

Not sure i'm looking in the right place. I opened the charms network list and the old style network window, and the window took up far more room.

Some people are definitely pushing for this inside Microsoft, the question is whether they'll win. With Sinofsky out of the picture, anything is possible. I think this is a required move if Windows 8 is ever to gain significant traction among business desktop users. The Start Screen and "Modern" apps work about as well on a desktop than Windows 7 did on tablets; it works, but why would you want to use that?

This seems unlikely. I doubt people will be complaining much by 2015 so why even bother? If they were going to bring it back due to consumer backlash, they would've done it in 8.1.

They've been complaining for the last 2-3 years and sales haven't seen great figures.
Microsoft appears to be listening and are willing to try something to resolve that.

Time will tell, of course.

this will be a huge boost to modern apps which suddenly will be quite usable in desktops and laptops. this will help tablets with more devs pouring resources to the platform. it would be a windows renaissance!

wonderful news.

I made the right choice when I skipped windows 8 all together. Will wait for the next windows iteration before I upgrade from my amazingly stable windows 7.

Come on MS, you didn't get this far by having the spine of a jellyfish.

Also..

"This is an important change from what Windows 8.1 offers which is simply a button that only provides familiarity but little functionality."

So much fail.

"Come on MS, you didn't get this far by having the spine of a jellyfish."
----
Nah they got partially got this far by listening and responding to their customer base and providing more value to that base then the competition. Something they've tried ignoring in recent years to their detriment, perhaps this is yet another sign (if true) that since ~summer that someone is trying to right the ship.

knighthawk said,
"Come on MS, you didn't get this far by having the spine of a jellyfish."
----
Nah they got partially got this far by listening and responding to their customer base and providing more value to that base then the competition. Something they've tried ignoring in recent years to their detriment, perhaps this is yet another sign (if true) that since ~summer that someone is trying to right the ship.

To push their vision for the future they need to be hardcore. No company gets any where by pandering to the whiners. A certain degree of listening and acting are needed yes, but MS is teetering on a very dangerous cliff edge.

Quite the opposite they went to too hardcore to fast, just like many warned them about doing before 8 even launched. If anything this is step back from a cliff. Theses whiners you speak of, they are customers, they are also in many cases decision and opinion makers, and not an insignificant number of them have voiced their opinions to MS asking for this in one form or another. The fact that widely used 3rd party applications exist (both paid and free) to return lost functionality\productivity only underscores the fact MS was wrong to ignore the warnings in the first place.

knighthawk said,
Quite the opposite they went to too hardcore to fast, just like many warned them about doing before 8 even launched.

This we can agree on

MikeChipshop said,

To push their vision for the future they need to be hardcore. No company gets any where by pandering to the whiners. A certain degree of listening and acting are needed yes, but MS is teetering on a very dangerous cliff edge.

you came to this conclusion how...? I remember earlier on a lady from MS was posted on here and she stated windows 8 was supposed to be the one OS for all.. as you can see.. obviously she was wrong and MS is making amends.

MikeChipshop said,

My eyes. That and it's bloody obvious.

not with her speech on the subject. they wanted one OS for everyone...so if there is a desktop environment then they thought about desktop users... which naturally brings up a start menu. modern UI and desktop are two totally different environments. you have YOUR environment, I use mine...

chrisj1968 said,

not with her speech on the subject. they wanted one OS for everyone...so if there is a desktop environment then they thought about desktop users... which naturally brings up a start menu. modern UI and desktop are two totally different environments. you have YOUR environment, I use mine...

My environment is the desktop. I run a web design studio and the start screen has in no way caused any issues. In comparison going back to the start menu is a horrible affair. So as i said their vision was for the future, exactly what you're saying, the one OS for all. I can happily sit at work delving deep in to the desktop environment, whilst my lady at home, using the exact same OS as me yet on a tablet, can play with apps, watch films and listen to music without needing to go in to the desktop environment.

We both win. Desktop and Modern do not two OS's make.

probably start menu when you right click,and start screen when you left click. enough to get the whiners silenced,but keep the better implementation for left click.

No, the whole problem with Metro Start is that when they click the Start button, the whole screen jumps to something entirely different. People who aren't very knowledgeable with computers don't need the risk of that happening, whether it's on the left button or the right button.

I can see the use of the Metro interface on tablets, but it has no place on the desktop. If they really want to run it on desktops, then they should just have a "Metro" application that runs it inside a window or something.

vcfan said,
probably start menu when you right click,and start screen when you left click. enough to get the whiners silenced,but keep the better implementation for left click.

Same amount of whiners expressing their like for the Start Menu as those who do not like it or think it should go away. You are always going to have someone who doesnt like something and just need to determine what is the best position for you, or your company, to take.

Its does have a place on desktops, just a niche role.

Windows Media Center had a place on the desktop and Metro can fill the role WMC did, so yes, it also has a place.

Metro has no place on the desktop for those that have no interest in a full screen experience for anything and are not using their pc primarily for media tasks.

Chugworth said,
No, the whole problem with Metro Start is that when they click the Start button, the whole screen jumps to something entirely different.

How is that different from the 9x/XP version of the Start Menu, except that the wall o`text was harder to find things in?

Chugworth said,
People who aren't very knowledgeable with computers don't need the risk of that happening,

people who aren't very knowledgeable probably don't know how to use features of the desktop anyways,and they don't need the risk of malware and viruses. I think metro being the dominant interface of windows is for the good of computing, and as the API becomes much more powerful, the use for desktop will become less and less important. if you haven't noticed, all Microsoft devices and products are going this route,with the whole convergence and unification happening. I cant believe people are still in denial about this.

vcfan said,

people who aren't very knowledgeable probably don't know how to use features of the desktop anyways,and they don't need the risk of malware and viruses. I think metro being the dominant interface of windows is for the good of computing, and as the API becomes much more powerful, the use for desktop will become less and less important. if you haven't noticed, all Microsoft devices and products are going this route,with the whole convergence and unification happening. I cant believe people are still in denial about this.

I say this slightly tongue in cheek as I understand the point you are trying to make about Microsoft's plans to unify systems.. But could you not argue its the enthusiasts for the Metro style interface and Start Screen that are in denial given the still single digit percentage market share for Windows 8 and Microsoft now back tracking and looking to reinstate the Start Menu?

I am sort of indifferent now. 8.1 was a big improvement and I am sort of used to it on my work PC but I just use it as a tool rather than having any real interest or enthusiasm for it!

vcfan said,
probably start menu when you right click,and start screen when you left click. enough to get the whiners silenced,but keep the better implementation for left click.

Calling people with a different opinion "whiners" perfectly portrait the narrowness of your thinking ability.
Although I am pleased with the development I would not look at people who are not with scorn.

Well I've got to give Microsoft credit. Slowly but surely they're fixing the mess they made with Windows 8's interface.

Another feature that is reportedly coming will allow you to run Modern apps in windows on the desktop

Huh? Windows can already run modern apps on the desktop. Oooooh, they're talking about those ugly Metro things. Who would want to do that?

Chugworth said,
Well I've got to give Microsoft credit. Slowly but surely they're fixing the mess they made with Windows 8's interface.


Huh? Windows can already run modern apps on the desktop. Oooooh, they're talking about those ugly Metro things. Who would want to do that?

all of the windows development is going into "metro" apps. name the last new win32 app being developed by anybody? see? all is going to the windows store these days. So to be able to run those apps in windows is going to be HUGE.

neonspark said,

all of the windows development is going into "metro" apps. name the last new win32 app being developed by anybody? see? all is going to the windows store these days. So to be able to run those apps in windows is going to be HUGE.

No, not Metro; what you are talking about is RT Runtime.

Um. Adobe Creative Suite, FL Studio, Sony Acid, Sony Vegas, Audacity, Visual Studio, Office, hundreds of games, and more.

Oh but that doesn't matter because there is no dedicated Facebook app? Give me a break, that is what websites are for. There is NO.....NO need for 90% of the apps on the desktop. Just go to the website and have better experiences.

Wha-? I still do all my work on the desktop bud.. Adobe Photoshop CC (creative cloud) sorry, you are not a winner today! but we don't want you to leave empty handed.. Neobond, tell us what Whiplashes consolation prize is.....

What are you talking about? Isn't that what I said? I have Windows 8.1 and have the entire adobe suite....All the programs I listed are desktop programs. I was commenting to the person that said "name the last new win32 app being developed by anybody?" (direct quote). Name one KILLER metro, iOS, Android app that CANNOT....CANNOT be achieved on the desktop either by a program or website.

Please read what other people have said, then you would know what I am talking about.

seems alot like 8/8.1 fans want to tell others how they should use their OS. ooo their killing the OS.. oooo they're holding back progress... pfft! get over yourselves.

Lol spicoli.. last time I remember, Spicoli had NO job and went no where in life. lol, oh,oh... I'm sorry shame on me!

Just give me what I want and no one will get hurt.. right?

Can you believe they actually thought Start Menu lovers were the minority? On more than one occasion I was told that everyone is transitioning away from the desktop straight to the Modern UI. LOL!

Lord Method Man said,
LOL @ the whining from the insignificant minority of users who actually liked the failed Metro interface on a Desktop.

if it failed they would be taking it away, but in fact it has "WON" effectively replacing win32 apps as the de-facto choice for windowed environments. in other words, you think metro is going away, when in fact it is taking over want to try again?

neonspark said,

if it failed they would be taking it away, but in fact it has "WON" effectively replacing win32 apps as the de-facto choice for windowed environments. in other words, you think metro is going away, when in fact it is taking over want to try again?


If they can run as windowed apps not sure I would care much, I've found I just don't have much use for them as tiles.

Passing off Metro apps as a desktop equivalent will NOT help anything. They can do what ever they want, but what people want are desktop apps for the desktop interface. That should be a freaking standard by now. They need to put more resources into the desktop, if they don't it only gives the competition more time to add and enhance what Windows is already lacking.

I'm not sure what MS needs to add to the desktop resource wise.

The standard is already that desktop apps go with the desktop. what exactly are you talking about ? The desktop is a mature UI, something that has not gotten any major changes over the years, just minor tweaks to how some of it works or looks. Heck, the desktop in 8 even makes some of those minor tweaks that improve it in my opinion.

There really isn't much more MS can do that would significantly evolve the desktop UI. They just focus on bug fixes and tweaks to improve what is there.

Metro is their attempt at something different. Their big mistake was to not give power users a way to avoid it. Many power users want control over their windows ui and the option to make it work as they want it to.

http://pulagatha.deviantart.co...ktop-Enhancements-418057900

A messenging app (the Skype desktop app needs to be a standard feature.) An Alarm desktop app. A desktop app for the desktop app store (So I don't have to worry about where to get Gimp 2.8 or Firefox 25, CNET and others have taken advantage of this for years). They really need to push the desktop app store more than they do. It's for their main OS and it needs some attention.

Pulagatha said,
http://pulagatha.deviantart.co...ktop-Enhancements-418057900

A messenging app (the Skype desktop app needs to be a standard feature.) An Alarm desktop app. A desktop app for the desktop app store (So I don't have to worry about where to get Gimp 2.8 or Firefox 25, CNET and others have taken advantage of this for years). They really need to push the desktop app store more than they do. It's for their main OS and it needs some attention.

From the minute you can run metro apps on the desktop windowed they are no different then desktop apps. Run the new metro alarm app on the desktop and it's a desktop app. The Windows Store supports listing desktop apps already and for free if developers want to post their apps on it.

Pulagatha said,
My opinion is that Metro should be a choice upon installing Windows. Having said that, I would like a standard messenging app, an alarm app, and a desktop store app.

And maybe some features like these on the desktop:
http://pulagatha.deviantart.co...ktop-Enhancements-418057900


I'm not sure how a desktop only app store would work though.

One of the inherent advantages to windows all of this time is the freedom to get programs anyway you want to. Creating a store would seem to fly in the face of the freedom for developers.

trooper11 said,

One of the inherent advantages to windows all of this time is the freedom to get programs anyway you want to. Creating a store would seem to fly in the face of the freedom for developers.

I agree. If the desktop becomes a walled garden they might as well kill the OS altogether.

trooper11 said,


I'm not sure how a desktop only app store would work though.

One of the inherent advantages to windows all of this time is the freedom to get programs anyway you want to. Creating a store would seem to fly in the face of the freedom for developers.

They have desktop app store. They just don't push it very much. As long as they say other websites can host programs for the operating system I don't think it will ever be a walled garden.

Excellent move. If true, many members here will eat their words. I remember phrases like, "get use to it, the desktop and start menu are dead." Financially speaking, this is a choice Microsoft should have given users in the begining and sales would have been phenomenal. I believe Microsoft can see the writing on the wall. Alienate your majority user base and you will have a scenario such as what's happening with Windows XP. Millions and millions will stick to Windows 7 if Microsoft doesn't listen up. Add a simple start menu, allow me the option to never see a silly tile again, and I will upgrade along with millions of others.

JHBrown said,
Excellent move. If true, many members here will eat their words. I remember phrases like, "get use to it, the desktop and start menu are dead." Financially speaking, this is a choice Microsoft should have given users in the begining and sales would have been phenomenal. I believe Microsoft can see the writing on the wall. Alienate your majority user base and you will have a scenario such as what's happening with Windows XP. Millions and millions will stick to Windows 7 if Microsoft doesn't listen up. Add a simple start menu, allow me the option to never see a silly tile again, and I will upgrade along with millions of others.

well PC sales tells us the desktop IS dead, but one way to propel the inevitable transition away from it would be to boost the number of non desktop apps. and what better way to allow the 1 BILLION plus windows users to use touch aps as if they were desktop apps? that was the main complain: full screen apps don't make sense on desktops.

so I dont' think anybody is going to eat their words. the desktop still dying, the touch world is just taking over slowly but steadily. However instead of the drastic steven Sinofsky transition, we'll get everybody hooked on the windows store so by the time they see a tablet, they won't even give the competition another look as they can literally, run the desktop apps in the tablet.

Just stop it! this is just so dum....
The start screen is so much better, better customization and link location givin a nice and live feeling to the PC, not the old static and simply overloaded start menú...
keep the Start Screen, and if people want the start button let them get programs for it!

Raa said,
Or, you know, don't force a change on people and give them options?
It's not hard and both parties win.

Yeah, like forcing the decade old Start Menu on people who don't want it because, you know, it won't be an option!!

neo158 said,

Yeah, like forcing the decade old Start Menu on people who don't want it because, you know, it won't be an option!!


Stop with the FUD. It'll be an option IF it gets implemented.

VictorWho said,
LOL...is the Google Chromebook that scary for Microsoft for them to bring back the Start Menu? AMAZING!

I think the only ones scared of the chromebooks are the returns department.

VictorWho said,
LOL...is the Google Chromebook that scary for Microsoft for them to bring back the Start Menu? AMAZING!

Talk about reaching, chromebooks have little to do with this. I bet the return of a "menu" is due to the enterprise market wanting it and nothing else. I also think the menu we'll get, if true, won't be the same one from Windows 7 but a updated version that will also support metro apps and live tiles inside it, like a mini start screen if you will.

Finally, the windows 8 as I wanted them, without the customization mods

I guess this will be 8.2 ??? and I am certain I will upgrade my main PC to it, even though I have being nothing but happy with 7 up to now.

panacea said,
even though I have being nothing but happy with 7 up to now.

Like the majority of people in the world it seems!

Raa said,
You have the choice not to use it.

And people have the choice to add whatever Menu they wanted if they didn't want the default.

My fear is this will lead to the return of the Menu as the main/only program launcher, and the scrapping of the Start Screen.

DConnell said,
My fear is this will lead to the return of the Menu as the main/only program launcher, and the scrapping of the Start Screen.

It won't. Stop fear mongering.

Raa said,
It won't. Stop fear mongering.

It will, it's not fear mongering. The Start Menu is almost a decade old and needs to be left to die with Windows 7.

neo158 said,

The Start Menu is almost a decade old and needs to be left to die with Windows 7.

Your opinion is, very clearly, in the minority.

They did ditch Program Manager with the release of Windows 95 as the default shell and in the XP days it was reduced to a shortcut conversion to Start Menu. The same happened with Windows 8 onwards regarding the Start Menu.

Also, it does not take a whole update to bring the Start Menu back. Heck, even a rollup update pack could bring it back under one patch. It's clear that it wasn't their intention with the 8.x releases so far.

knighthawk said,
Lets not get carried away now.

Kill joy Knighthawk, Kill joy!

I'll chime in ...Windows for Workgroup 3.11!

Man ...those were the days. DOS rules, changing IRQ settings, hidden and undocumented features in Windows (I'm looking at your Dr.Watson), and such!

RommelS said,
Man ...those were the days. DOS rules, changing IRQ settings, hidden and undocumented features in Windows (I'm looking at your Dr.Watson), and such!

Do not forget jumpers and custom bat files to manage upper memory and run specific games....

Fritzly said,

Do not forget jumpers and custom bat files to manage upper memory and run specific games....

...and all of that running pre-Windows NT Server. NOVELL NETWORK!!!

RommelS said,
Man ...those were the days. DOS rules, changing IRQ settings, hidden and undocumented features in Windows (I'm looking at your Dr.Watson), and such!

You know what I miss the most? Easter Eggs. I don't like how... sterile the OS and other MS apps have become. No sense of fun any more.

Romero said,

You know what I miss the most? Easter Eggs. I don't like how... sterile the OS and other MS apps have become. No sense of fun any more.

very true, I loved looking for them..... Ah, the good old times....

Pulagatha said,
More Mistakes

You heard it here first folks. Having choice is a mistake!

No choice for anyone. All obey the word of Big Brother. Do as it says. No deviations. No free will, no free thinking. Choise is bad, mmkay?

rpsgc said,

You heard it here first folks. Having choice is a mistake!

No choice for anyone. All obey the word of Big Brother. Do as it says. No deviations. No free will, no free thinking. Choise is bad, mmkay?

those folks must be console kiddies with their first "puter" cool mommy, my Pc looks just like Xboxone "Derp"

rpsgc said,

You heard it here first folks. Having choice is a mistake!

No choice for anyone. All obey the word of Big Brother. Do as it says. No deviations. No free will, no free thinking. Choise is bad, mmkay?

They can do this. But I think Windowed Metro Apps go against the paradigm in the first place. A few of the choices I would like are an option to choose to install Metro upon installation. A desktop version of some the more important apps that were only made for Metro and clearly belong in the desktop OS. On/Off Toggles , RSS Feed Headlines, and System Information Tiles on the Start Screen. The magnetic snap from AllSnap for desktop windows. The "double-click background space to go one folder up" option from QTTabBar.

The History of Windows has always been to ADD functionality, not remove it. This allowed new paradigms to emerge while allowing previous users to continue doing what they were doing the way they were used to doing it.

With Windows 8, Microsoft broke this covenant with users. And it has cost the entire industry (from PC OEMs through Microsoft itself) billions.

Whatever their next OS version is called, it had better be back to something every desktop user recognizes when they upgrade from Windows 7, but WITH the options of Windows 8 for people who consume via touch/tablets/etc.

excalpius said,
The History of Windows has always been to ADD functionality, not remove it.

What? Microsoft has deprecated and removed many features over the years. There's a downside to having old code remaining behind.

In the case of PM to Start Menu, the ability to easily organize the programs as I saw fit (which you could do in the Menu but not easily) easily-skimmed icons replaced by a wall of text. The worst design concept MS has ever foisted upon us, and it was kept for 17 years, and now they're bringing it back? The return of the Menu is my worst nightmare.

DConnell said,
The return of the Menu is my worst nightmare.

If it is an option, which most likely will be, why is it so much of a problem for people?

Some people are acting like their dog just got shot.

Because it may eventually lead to the removal of the Start Screen. Call me crazy, but I like being able to skim a page of icons and find my program in 20 seconds or less. It's the number one benefit of the new UI to me. The rest of Metro I can give up, but the Screen must remain!

DConnell said,
Because it may eventually lead to the removal of the Start Screen. Call me crazy,

Ok, you are crazy.

The Start Screen is integrated in RT, XBOX, and WP. It is not going away and it would be a bigger chore to do so, and would leave a lot of things broken, then adding back the Start Menu.

Microsoft has a good track record of removing features and incubating them, and adding them back again (slightly changed) when the time is right.

This is due to the fact that MS is more for business. They are just learning how to deal with the consumer market in recent years.

you're probably right. I just don't get why people make such a fuss about people wanting the start menu. if they want to use the modern UI start area...cool. But all this ****ing and ranting about MS going backwards is just simply rediculous. it has always been forward thinking. MS is finally dealing with consumsers. I bet Win8.1 will rocket in sales when folks find out they brought back the start button of old. everyone can be happy.. I feel the love!!!

excalpius said,
The History of Windows has always been to ADD functionality, not remove it. This allowed new paradigms to emerge while allowing previous users to continue doing what they were doing the way they were used to doing it.

With Windows 8, Microsoft broke this covenant with users. And it has cost the entire industry (from PC OEMs through Microsoft itself) billions.

Whatever their next OS version is called, it had better be back to something every desktop user recognizes when they upgrade from Windows 7, but WITH the options of Windows 8 for people who consume via touch/tablets/etc.

So you mean force the Start Menu on people unless they have a touchscreen device?

neo158 said,

So you mean force the Start Menu on people unless they have a touchscreen device?


Who said it's going to be forced? I certainly can't see that happening.

neo158 said,

So you mean force the Start Menu on people unless they have a touchscreen device?

It's going to clearly be an option for Desktop Users. Why would any tablet user not use the kiddie screen?

Who! Again?! This was already remured for Windows 8 Release Preview and Windows 8.1, this is the 3rd time already!

I don't care if they add this back, as long as it is optional.

I wouldn't all be all to surprise if this only comes with Windows Pro version only, and Windows RT will continue to be the same way as is.

Would make sense as RT is aimed at mobile devices.. having first hand experience with a classic desktop on a tablet, I can confidently say it's functional but a serious pain in the butt to work with at times, even with a stylus.

Raa said,
But... but... Microsoft is killing Windows RT...

Not at the moment. Then again, the planned single OS on all devices could change depending on what could happen in the OS / mobile device landscape. For now, it would be wise to keep the new feature in Pro since RT cannot even use any legacy apps out there.

RommelS said,
I wouldn't all be all to surprise if this only comes with Windows Pro version only, and Windows RT will continue to be the same way as is.

Don't you mean that it wouldn't be a surprise if it was forced on all Pro owners whether they want it or not?

Why would you want that old junk back. The start screen is SOOO much better once you get the hang of it. It's also synced now so no more searching for stuff I use between systems.

Spicoli said,
Why would you want that old junk back. The start screen is SOOO much better once you get the hang of it. It's also synced now so no more searching for stuff I use between systems.

You keep your biased opinion with you as not everyone likes it. The best option for everyone will be give the option to people enable or disable this feature as this will make everyone happy. This is how consumer product should work rather than forcing everyone on the same paradigm.

It's not an opinion. The syncing does not exist on the old start menu nor could it due to how it's structured. The ability to customize the start screen for your employees increases UI efficiency. No more go to this menu, slide to this menu, search through the 20 options. A user's setup follows them from system to system and everything is always in the same place.

Spicoli said,
It's not an opinion. The syncing does not exist on the old start menu nor could it due to how it's structured.

There's no reason they couldn't add that sort of thing to the classic menu either.. the start menu is just a collection of shortcuts in two locations (global and user), totally possible to have it sync that sort of thing as well. If they actually wanted to add the functionality of course. For me, I like the new start menu's initial view (love the live tiles), but the detailed version of the menu is a mess, never mind cumbersome to work with... I think they'll eventually refine it to where it's good, but at this point in time, not yet.

Auditor said,

You keep your biased opinion with you as not everyone likes it. The best option for everyone will be give the option to people enable or disable this feature as this will make everyone happy. This is how consumer product should work rather than forcing everyone on the same paradigm.

Customers do have the choice - there are plenty of Start Menu software out there to choose from.

Max Norris said,

There's no reason they couldn't add that sort of thing to the classic menu either.

There is a reason you can't, and it's because those items are created by the individual application install programs. You can still get to it in Windows 8, and it's the same giant mess as the old start menu.

Spicoli said,
Why would you want that old junk back. The start screen is SOOO much better once you get the hang of it. It's also synced now so no more searching for stuff I use between systems.

understand this HELPS YOU. You love touch, tablets, all that good stuff. the problem? apps. Well, apps need audience for devs to make it. And now you'll let devs target over 1 billion desktop users which instead of crying how terrible full screen apps are, they will use "windows" to manage "windows" as they have for decades.

the result: more apps for tablets created because of the huge amount of desktop users using the windows store.

this is a win win. the legacy folks get the modern windows store the way they want it. the progressive ones that moved on to tablets, get more apps thanks to the desktop guys enticing devs.

Spicoli said,
Why would you want that old junk back.
At least he's unbiased - he trolls the Microsoft fanboys too!

Seriously, neonspark is right. The more comfortable you make everyone with the experience, the more people will desire the "modern" stuff, and in turn attract more devs.

Max Norris said,

There's no reason they couldn't add that sort of thing to the classic menu either.. the start menu is just a collection of shortcuts in two locations (global and user), totally possible to have it sync that sort of thing as well. If they actually wanted to add the functionality of course. For me, I like the new start menu's initial view (love the live tiles), but the detailed version of the menu is a mess, never mind cumbersome to work with... I think they'll eventually refine it to where it's good, but at this point in time, not yet.

Syncing isn't the only reason that the Modern UI is better, the Live Tiles bring information to you without having to load half a dozen applications to get the same information. That's another thing that the Start Menu can't have.

kidjenius said,
It will be a sad day if this is confirmed.
A happy day for Microsoft's bank accounts as millions upgrade.

I'm not so sure you should be confident in that prediction. I think it will sway people as evidenced by this thread, but its hard to ignore the fact that pc sales could be dropping for reasons beyond Windows 8 issues.

Spicoli said,
Sad like losing the sharing options on Xbox One. The whiny afraid of change minority messes things up. It happens in the office a lot too.

And the " The whiny afraid of change minority" statement is based on what? The record sales of the OS?

Besides, what are people loosing? Since when having a choice means loosing something? The rumor is that the Start Menu, which I personally I am not interested to use, will return as an option; you do not like it Do not use it... What are you loosing here? Imposing upon everybody else your preferences?

Fritzly said,

And the " The whiny afraid of change minority" statement is based on what? The record sales of the OS?

Besides, what are people loosing? Since when having a choice means loosing something? The rumor is that the Start Menu, which I personally I am not interested to use, will return as an option; you do not like it Do not use it... What are you loosing here? Imposing upon everybody else your preferences?


Choice means a big slow bloated OS. I don't want a whole bunch of junk OOTB with Windows just because people think it should be intergrated. We will end up with Blu-ray disk installs and first action you do on an install is run a decrappyfyer just like people do with HP or Dell laptops.

Just check a full blown Debian install with all its packages takes years to install, several DVD disks (12 or something IIRC) and a 1tb+ drive.

Shadowzz said,

Choice means a big slow bloated OS.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise adding a simple Start Menu would suddenly bloat the OS code and require a BR drive to install Windows. /s

Utter nonsense and a terrible comparison. Scare tactics at its best.
Metro is bloat ware, don't hear you complaining bout that.
And please look at the size of Classic Shell and then eat some humble pie!

Shadowzz said,

Choice means a big slow bloated OS. I don't want a whole bunch of junk OOTB with Windows just because people think it should be intergrated. We will end up with Blu-ray disk installs and first action you do on an install is run a decrappyfyer just like people do with HP or Dell laptops.

Just check a full blown Debian install with all its packages takes years to install, several DVD disks (12 or something IIRC) and a 1tb+ drive.

The return of the Start Menu, if it will happen, will not mean a "big slow bloated OS"; let us not try to be apocalyptic here.

Borix said,
Utter nonsense and a terrible comparison. Scare tactics at its best.
Metro is bloat ware, don't hear you complaining bout that.
And please look at the size of Classic Shell and then eat some humble pie!

Metro is not bloat ware.

You illustrate why people argue so much online. Even when trying to make a real point, you cant help but make bs points.

Otherwise, the point stands: adding the option for a start menu will not make windows bloated

I don't use metro apps, but its integrated in win8 by default. For me that counts as bloatware. I have no problem with the start screen end metro apps as an option, but I do as the default environment on a desktop/

It is only normal to argue cause people have different expectations. So come up with arguments instead of calling bs on my comment.

And my whole point was that adding an option for for a start menu will not make win8 bloated (classic shell is only 5,6MB download with a myriad of options). Read careful before calling bs.

Edited by Borix, Dec 9 2013, 11:38pm :

Borix said,
I don't use metro apps, but its integrated in win8 by default. For me that count as bloatware.

It is only normal to argue cause people have different expectations. So come up with arguments instead of calling bs on my comment.

And my whole point was that adding a option for for a start menu will not make win8 bloated (classic shell is 5,6MB download). Read careful before calling bs.


The important part of this quote that was not in your previous quote? You said 'for me'

Before you laid it out as a generally accepted fact for all users. No, its not really. Believe it or not, there are users that don't consider the metro stuff bloat ware.

However that doesn't invalidate your own feelings on it, so don't take it as an attack on your opinion.

Oh and you must have not read my whole post, because right there at the bottom, I agreed with you, so I wasn't calling that BS at all.

Borix said,
I don't use metro apps, but its integrated in win8 by default. For me that counts as bloatware. I have no problem with the start screen end metro apps as an option, but I do as the default environment on a desktop/

It is only normal to argue cause people have different expectations. So come up with arguments instead of calling bs on my comment.

And my whole point was that adding an option for for a start menu will not make win8 bloated (classic shell is only 5,6MB download with a myriad of options). Read careful before calling bs.

Going on what you're saying about metro being bloatware because it's integrated then that must mean that the Start menu is bloatware seeing as it's been integrated into windows up to windows 8!!!

For crying out loud. I was being sarcastic about metro being bloatware BECAUSE the op called adding a start menu would bloat the OS!!!

And please READ my comment before responding. It states:

"I don't use metro apps, but its integrated in win8 by default. For me that counts as bloatware."

Not using certain apps/functionality is a pretty essential part of it being bloatware!

Spicoli said,
Sad like losing the sharing options on Xbox One. The whiny afraid of change minority messes things up. It happens in the office a lot too.

It would appear that YOU are afraid of change not us. rant "how dare you ask for a start menu.. you loser old schoolers.. be a haxor like me an leet!" lol dude, I'm 45 years old with a family .. I don't care what is hip or "in" or what you perceive to be leet or kewl... get over it already. you are trying to tell us desktop users to enjoy a car without an option...

Fritzly said,

And the " The whiny afraid of change minority" statement is based on what? The record sales of the OS?


Besides, what are people loosing? Since when having a choice means loosing something? The rumor is that the Start Menu, which I personally I am not interested to use, will return as an option; you do not like it Do not use it... What are you loosing here? Imposing upon everybody else your preferences?

Bravo.. exactly! my point all along yet, they are the ones who want us believe they are "tolerant."

My point wasnt the little start menu alone.
If we put all the little things people have preferences for by default into Windows, then what happens. Start menu is downloadable and till quite a far extend modable from within the OS.

I personally think the classic theme is a much bigger loss than the start menu, and there will be others with different opinions about different parts being removed from Windows.... EACH AND EVERY SINGLE RELEASE.

Microsoft must be getting desperate to get Windows 8 more market share (currently 6.66%) if they are resorting to reviving the good old start menu. I would without a doubt return to Windows 8 if they did wisely add the start menu back, which would be a very smart move on Microsoft's part! Before you start saying I cant adapt to change, or I clearly didn't use Windows 8 at all, I have in fact used Windows 8 for over a year and couldn't take the metro environment. I have used Windows since Windows 95, and I have to say Windows 8 has the worst Windows UI of all time, and that I have ever seen!

trooper11 said,
I assume you mean the metro side of Win 8 has the worst UI of all time?

The desktop side has been fine.

The desktop is great, the metro environment desktop integration should never have made it past Microsoft drawing board. Its absolutely not an improvement for desktop users that I personally see. I have used the desktop everyday since the Windows 9X day, so it isn't like I don't know what I'm talking about. BTW the start screen works great on tablets, as I own a Windows RT tablet.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,

The desktop is great, the metro environment desktop integration should never have made it past Microsoft drawing board. Its absolutely not an improvement for desktop users that I personally see. I have used the desktop everyday since the Windows 9X day, so it isn't like I don't know what I'm talking about. BTW the start screen works great on tablets, as I own a Windows RT tablet.


Well as long as MS makes that integration optional for everyone that does not like it or want it, then everything is fine.

Windows Media Center was a great UI for media consumption back in the day and it is basically the grandfather of what we call Metro today. The difference is that MC was completely avoidable and Metro is not. MS is adding more ui control with each release, so I'm sure it will get to the point where you can completely live on the desktop side without issue.

8.1 already gets very close to that. Adding a start menu would be the last piece.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,
Microsoft must be getting desperate to get Windows 8 more market share (currently 6.66%) if they are resorting to reviving the good old start menu. I would without a doubt return to Windows 8 if they did wisely add the start menu back, which would be a very smart move on Microsoft's part! Before you start saying I cant adapt to change, or I clearly didn't use Windows 8 at all, I have in fact used Windows 8 for over a year and couldn't take the metro environment. I have used Windows since Windows 95, and I have to say Windows 8 has the worst Windows UI of all time, and that I have ever seen!

actually 9% in total volume higher than OSX and much higher than chrome OS. desperate? no. guess who buys windows 7? Microsoft customers.

neonspark said,

actually 9% in total volume higher than OSX and much higher than chrome OS. desperate? no. guess who buys windows 7? Microsoft customers.


Microsoft's biggest competition is previous Microsoft products.

Having gone through the whole "Start Menu Withdrawl" type of thing when I first went to Win 8 about a year ago, I would have been applauding this if indeed it is a confirmed thing by Microsoft themselves.

Although now, having used Win 8 and now 8.1, I have pretty much grown accustomed to the new format of using the Metro Screen to launch apps especially since they added the ability to type anywhere in there and it will begin searching. Now, for me to get used to using a Metro app, hasn't happened, and I'm not sure if I will be able to get used to it.

I haven't given it a chance really, but honestly, most programs I use (Firefox, FileZilla, PostBox), on a daily basis don't use Metro and until they convert to it fully with no other option and not on a nightly format, I probably won't.

Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true.

Doesn't mean they're killing off the new stuff, which I mostly like, just giving an option for those who couldn't bother adjusting it themselves.. IE, they probably wouldn't have bought the new versions anyway. Everybody's (theoretically) happy. Personally I rather like the "front" of the new start menu, it's just the back that's missing a lot of functionality yet.. no jumplists, no nested menus, difficult to rearrange/edit, etc etc.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.


Couldn't have said it better.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

If this is true, Dot Matrix is going to hugely disappointed as he was claiming in every post that start menu will never return. It looks like MS is getting its sense back, at least some one in MS has brain cell which is still functioning. Now lets see if this U-turn materialize though.

Perhaps those changes simply can't be made. There's a reason devs haven't flocked to WinRT. I don't know what it is ... but MS isn't eating this all if it could do all they promised to everyone.

I mean, we're at 8.1 and Modern Apps still spontaneously quit. Seriously?!? I had to stop services and delete the store database to get apps to update, twice. Seriously?!? I still can't create a playlist and sync it and music to my Surface and WP8 phone with little or not manual intervention. Seriously?!?

Confidence is already lost. Fortunately for MS, there's no real desktop alternative, so really, Microsoft didn't take any risk at all.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

Nothing is being taken away. Most likely these would be options that you can enable/disable. Dont see what the big deal is if they bring these two features to Win8.

I'd appreciate being able to run Metro apps in windowed mode. I had to compare two images and some text today, and the experience using the Photos app was awful. I like where they went with Live tiles and better real-time information, but the fullscreen/snapped screen usage mode falls flat on its face when you need to compare several things against one another.

Edit: Another area that I'd like to see improvement upon is providing more details and previews in search results.

techbeck said,
Dont see what the big deal is if they bring these two features to Win8.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. The market is actually going to dictate that. But if they do, it is a big deal.

Bring it back as an optional feature and I think it doesn't do any harm. All they would be doing is adding more ui customization.

techbeck said,
Nothing is being taken away. Most likely these would be options that you can enable/disable.

Exactly -- people who like the new system loses nothing, people who hated it or corporate setups etc where it may have not been practical now have an option without having to resort to third party stuff. It's all good. Personally the whole "new UI layer" should have been an option to begin with, something that could have been turned on or off via Programs and Features like the other Windows subsystems.

The start menu is better than the start screen on the desktop for several reasons.
1. You have to leave the desktop environment to find and open a program
2. All the applications are in a nice compact place and not enlarged in a full screen
3. Finding and opening programs takes less time because of the small area in which you need to move your mouse
4. All your libraries on the side which makes it very convenient
5. The search in conveniently integrated into the start menu
6. The recently used programs is a great feature
7. Things are more organized like games are in a game category, etc

The start screen in my opinion is considerably many steps backward in productivity and ease of use compared to the start menu and is also a de-evolution as well.

MorganX said,
Perhaps those changes simply can't be made. There's a reason devs haven't flocked to WinRT. I don't know what it is ... but MS isn't eating this all if it could do all they promised to everyone.

I mean, we're at 8.1 and Modern Apps still spontaneously quit. Seriously?!? I had to stop services and delete the store database to get apps to update, twice. Seriously?!? I still can't create a playlist and sync it and music to my Surface and WP8 phone with little or not manual intervention. Seriously?!?

Confidence is already lost. Fortunately for MS, there's no real desktop alternative, so really, Microsoft didn't take any risk at all.

These aren't common issues, though. Three machines and the only problem I have now is that the Weather Channel app doesn't run. That aside, Microsoft took a huge step in making these changes, they were risky, but I think the benefits are starting to pay off. Android has already adapted some of the features of Windows 8, and devs are starting to look at the platform. Windows 8 has already introduced a new range of PC form factors and has brought forward new input methods. App/layout sync between devices for me is a killer feature, and something you would never have gotten with the old Windows 7 layout.

With a little more work, Microsoft can create a killer platform for the next generation of users.

techbeck said,

Nothing is being taken away. Most likely these would be options that you can enable/disable. Dont see what the big deal is if they bring these two features to Win8.

It's going to make support a bigger hassle. They now have to update the (removed) Start Menu code to play nice with the new Search features, and multi-monitor features.

I'm not sure why your having so much trouble with metro apps, but I have yet to have a single issue that you have, so obviously your experience is not universal.

So far, the apps I do use have been stable and perform fine.

Javik said,
Rubbish, it just means users will be offered a choice of both worlds.

That is true. The problem is, as we all know, that should have been the case over a year ago. The problem now becomes, if you have a financial stake in decisions made at Microsoft, can you trust them? Do you want your enterprise to remain dependent on a company that is run by disconnected slaves to shareholders making clearly bad decisions, taking years to correct them. Are you will to be jerked around with them at their whim?

I do think it will be good for consumers, but somewhat devastating for Microsoft if they have to turn that far back.

Dot Matrix said,

It's going to make support a bigger hassle. They now have to update the (removed) Start Menu code to play nice with the new Search features, and multi-monitor features.

If 3rd parties can do it, MS can do it. Reason MS didnt do it because they want an unified system and everyone to conform to their way of thinking. I dont see including the classic start menu as a big hassle for MS.

It is ok to push forward to a new way of doing things, but dont up and abandon things that people have spent decades using. Well known fact that users do not like change, especially when forced on them, and the number one complaint it seems is the new Start Screen in Win8.

techbeck said,

If 3rd parties can do it, MS can do it. Reason MS didnt do it because they want an unified system and everyone to conform to their way of thinking. I dont see including the classic start menu as a big hassle for MS.

It is ok to push forward to a new way of doing things, but dont up and abandon things that people have spent decades using. Well known fact that users do not like change, especially when forced on them, and the number one complaint it seems is the new Start Screen in Win8.

If added back in you don't think Microsoft will abandon it again? You can't get the Win95 menu back anymore, should they add that back in too after people spent the better part of a decade using it?

Dot Matrix said,
If added back in you don't think Microsoft will abandon it again? You can't get the Win95 menu back anymore, should they add that back in too after people spent the better part of a decade using it?

Change is fine and I am all for it. But when you have 2 decades of using the same/almost the same start menu and then kill it and force something new on everyone, you are going to have backlash and lots twill not like it. Sometimes changes takes time and I think MS made a mistake here and Win8 sales would be a ton better now.

Dot Matrix said,

If added back in you don't think Microsoft will abandon it again? You can't get the Win95 menu back anymore, should they add that back in too after people spent the better part of a decade using it?

Microsoft provided an adjustment period for users with the class start menu view, it was available in XP and Vista. Not so with Windows 8.

Also, big difference between evolving something and killing something.

MorganX said,

I do think it will be good for consumers, but somewhat devastating for Microsoft if they have to turn that far back.

Devastating for MS to add more ui control options?

Oh come on, aren't we getting a little over the top now? 8.1 added more control over the ui and it has been anything but 'devastating'.

As far as what enterprises should think in regards to MS doing things like this. Well one way to look at it is that MS is more than willing to listen to customers and make changes to their software as needed. Now sure, you would like to see MS move more quickly to make changes, but the fact is they are willing to add features or controls that people want.

The whole time frame for pushing out fixes or improvements would not be a concern to those in the enterprise sector since they operate on a much longer time table than consumers do. Their upgrade cycle is much longer and they are rarely the ones to adopt a new OS or device first or even shortly after release. They take their time, let software/hardware mature, and then migrate.

By the time they are even considering 8, it wont look like what we have right now.

Good news I think =). I like all the metro stuff of Windows 8.1. I hope they make you change it manually as to encourage people to try the new start and metro apps. But I think desktop metro apps are the future of Windows 8 and beyond. Adding a feature like windowed metro apps will just increase its use on desktop imo.

All in all, not bad. More choice for the consumer! =)

techbeck said,

Change is fine and I am all for it. But when you have 2 decades of using the same/almost the same start menu and then kill it and force something new on everyone, you are going to have backlash and lots twill not like it. Sometimes changes takes time and I think MS made a mistake here and Win8 sales would be a ton better now.

Right or wrong, Microsoft made the choice to remove the menu in favor of the Start Screen. It's a done deal that was done almost two years ago at this point, and right now Microsoft should be focused on feedback, but using it to advance the Metro UI and the other new features to Windows 8, rather than wasting time adding back in old things. They should be confident in their new direction, especially when many are starting to pick it up. This does nothing but make them look "lost."

Microsoft are realising the decision was a bad one, and they're giving their users what they want, at last. Deal with it. It doesn't matter how much you personally love it, the reality of it is that most do not. Yes, it makes them look like they lack direction but that's their own T.S, if they hadn't forced it through so suddenly, which wasn't smart given that they already had indications it would be unpopular they wouldn't have been in this mess to begin with.

Having confidence in your "direction" only works when consumers also have confidence in it, and on tablet sales evidence and the general public consensus about Windows 8 they do not.

Edited by Javik, Dec 9 2013, 7:43pm :

trooper11 said,
The whole time frame for pushing out fixes or improvements would not be a concern to those in the enterprise sector since they operate on a much longer time table than consumers do.

It would be quite nice if it were that simple and there was no costs associated with these things.

Auditor said,

If this is true, Dot Matrix is going to hugely disappointed as he was claiming in every post that start menu will never return. It looks like MS is getting its sense back, at least some one in MS has brain cell which is still functioning. Now lets see if this U-turn materialize though.

U turn? to take the windows store and ram it in the windowing system is a take-over if I've ever seen one. nobody will bother with traditional desktop apps when you can target desktops and tablets with one app. no my friend, a U-turn this is not. It's a red pill

Scabrat said,
But I think desktop metro apps are the future of Windows 8 and beyond. Adding a feature like windowed metro apps will just increase its use on desktop imo.

And hopefully they'll add the capability to seamlessly run desktop apps in Metro as well.

MorganX said,

It would be quite nice if it were that simple and there was no costs associated with these things.


When did I say there was no cost to those things?

Again, the Enterprise sector works on a longer scale. That means when they finally want to shell out the cash and man hours to convert to a new OS or hardware, that stuff has been out for years.

Not long ago, a majority of companies were still using XP and only recently did many of them start to transition to 7. Win 8 adoption wouldn't be a realistic choice for most for at least a couple more years.

trooper11 said,
Win 8 adoption wouldn't be a realistic choice for most for at least a couple more years.

I know several companies that would of skipped Win7 if Win8 was what they hoped it would be.

techbeck said,

I know several companies that would of skipped Win7 if Win8 was what they hoped it would be.

Really? Why? That seems out of character for most companies.

What did they hope it would be?

trooper11 said,

Really? Why? That seems out of character for most companies.

What did they hope it would be?

A lot of companies skip every other OS release, some dont. I started working for my company about 1.5 years ago after I moved. We were mostly XP at that time. If Win8 had the classic menu and wasnt as much of a change for users, we would of went Windows 8. I know lots of people who work in the field and lots tell me the same thing. But this is just what I see in my little part of the world.

Dot Matrix said,

Right or wrong, Microsoft made the choice to remove the menu in favor of the Start Screen. It's a done deal that was done almost two years ago at this point, and right now Microsoft should be focused on feedback, but using it to advance the Metro UI and the other new features to Windows 8, rather than wasting time adding back in old things. They should be confident in their new direction, especially when many are starting to pick it up. This does nothing but make them look "lost."

I don't think the start screen is a bad concept, but it's implementation is lackluster at best & completely boneheaded at worst. Whilst going backwards may make them look lost, they've already struggled to implement a sound interface alternative that users don't feel bullied into.

I have absolutely zero knowledge on, let alone any qualifications in, UI design, but I seriously think I could come up with more sensible & considered layouts & functionality for aspects of the interface than MS has with Windows 8.

I mean I use Windows 8 & it's fine in fact, I think it's great. They don't necessarily NEED to bring back a start menu, but make the start screen more practical for the desktop user would be a start(pun intended).

Lamp0 said,

necessarily NEED to bring back a start menu, but make the start screen more practical for the desktop user would be a start(pun intended).

Excellent post. Here's the rub, the most practical thing to do, is bring back the Start Menu, lol.

techbeck said,

A lot of companies skip every other OS release, some dont. I started working for my company about 1.5 years ago after I moved. We were mostly XP at that time. If Win8 had the classic menu and wasnt as much of a change for users, we would of went Windows 8. I know lots of people who work in the field and lots tell me the same thing. But this is just what I see in my little part of the world.


Well there you go, definitely evidence that once the start menu is added, there will be a big influx of new users.

MorganX said,

Excellent post. Here's the rub, the most practical thing to do, is bring back the Start Menu, lol.


Its also the easiest thing to do.

It takes less effort to just keep the same start menu design and plug it into the Win 8 then to work on improving the Start Screen or say creating a new 'start menu' from scratch that took more advantage of new features in 8.

trooper11 said,
Well there you go, definitely evidence that once the start menu is added, there will be a big influx of new users.

Thats not what I said or meant. I said that is what I see in my little part of the world. I did not indicate this was the norm for the rest of the world.

techbeck said,

Thats not what I said or meant. I said that is what I see in my little part of the world. I did not indicate this was the norm for the rest of the world.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that your point was universal. I'll rephrase it:

This is evidence that small number of users from your 'little part of the world' will be looking to upgrade to 8 once this is added.

techbeck said,

Nothing is being taken away. Most likely these would be options that you can enable/disable. Dont see what the big deal is if they bring these two features to Win8.


However, because a bunch of whiney kids (no offense to those that actually used it and disliked it personally) I am now stuck with an ugly Windows logo on my task bar

Shadowzz said,
I am now stuck with an ugly Windows logo on my task bar

I believe there is an app out there that will get rid of the Windows start button.

techbeck said,

I believe there is an app out there that will get rid of the Windows start button.


hehe, yeah but still. I personally like a clean and slick OS with its toolbars hidden away (modern/hidden task bar/minimized ribbon). And the clean task bar Windows 8 gave me (no more useless pointless junk taking up half the bar like Win7 or even worse, 80% of it like XP).
And soon this might be such a forced little goody. Some 'start menu' (i imagine it will be similar to search in 8.1 just left side of screen) popping up.

Shadowzz said,

However, because a bunch of whiney kids (no offense to those that actually used it and disliked it personally) I am now stuck with an ugly Windows logo on my task bar

The proof that no matter what you do, someone won't be happy.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

On the contrary, it is a win-win situation for everybody:
Users
The ones that like the new start screen will have it; those who hate it will have the old start menu back; people, like me, who do not have problems with the start screen but dislike the either full-screen or sliced-screen for Metro apps will be able to run them "windowed".
Microsoft
It will be able to satisfy a wider segment of potential customers and improve sales; it will avoid another "XP situation" with people remaining with W7 forever; people moving to W8 will allow MS to allocate more resources to W9 development; finally the return of the Start menu might, ironically I would add, facilitate the acceptance of the Start Screen because being the latter no longer forced upon users, people could change their attitude toward it and being more interested to try it.
You do not win "Hearts and minds" forcing things, making them available it is a much more subtle and potentially successful strategy.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,
The start menu is better than the start screen on the desktop for several reasons.
1. You have to leave the desktop environment to find and open a program
2. All the applications are in a nice compact place and not enlarged in a full screen
3. Finding and opening programs takes less time because of the small area in which you need to move your mouse
4. All your libraries on the side which makes it very convenient
5. The search in conveniently integrated into the start menu
6. The recently used programs is a great feature
7. Things are more organized like games are in a game category, etc

The start screen in my opinion is considerably many steps backward in productivity and ease of use compared to the start menu and is also a de-evolution as well.

Ok 1. You cannot do anything Else while the start menubis open anyway, why does it matter that it now takes up the entire screen? What do I need to reference your open word docks while you open Photoshop?

2. That retro list is crap, the start screen in 8.1 can be sent to the all apps list by default...you know that right??

3.once you use the start screen and have it set up well, opening apps takes FAR less time...

4. Once again, if you have it set up right you would have links to these on your start screen anyway...or u know...just pin explorer to the task bar and open that those library like take you to the same spot anyway...

5.bro u know on the start screen you can just start typing to search right?

6...you do have a point on the recent programs...but how many programs do u have that this is that needed... Everything I use on a daily basis is either pinned to the taskbar or is one click away on the start screen...

7. You know you can make groups on the start screen right? The end of my start screen is all pinned steam games...and it looks and works quite well..

It sounds to me like you have never used windows 8...or at least not long enough to explore what can be done with it. Dont be a hater, change is a good thing..even if it takes a little getting used to. Once you used 8.1 for a while it makes windows 7 look crap...

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

No point in "crying like a two year old" about it, windows 8.x has completely failed because of arrogance and treating customers with unbridled contempt.

Ony said,

Ok 1. You cannot do anything Else while the start menubis open anyway, why does it matter that it now takes up the entire screen? What do I need to reference your open word docks while you open Photoshop?

2. That retro list is crap, the start screen in 8.1 can be sent to the all apps list by default...you know that right??

3.once you use the start screen and have it set up well, opening apps takes FAR less time...

4. Once again, if you have it set up right you would have links to these on your start screen anyway...or u know...just pin explorer to the task bar and open that those library like take you to the same spot anyway...

5.bro u know on the start screen you can just start typing to search right?

6...you do have a point on the recent programs...but how many programs do u have that this is that needed... Everything I use on a daily basis is either pinned to the taskbar or is one click away on the start screen...

7. You know you can make groups on the start screen right? The end of my start screen is all pinned steam games...and it looks and works quite well..

It sounds to me like you have never used windows 8...or at least not long enough to explore what can be done with it. Dont be a hater, change is a good thing..even if it takes a little getting used to. Once you used 8.1 for a while it makes windows 7 look crap...


I have used windows 8 for more than year along with start screen, and as for the start menu I have used that for probably 15 years. I am not talking out of rear saying the start menu is better on the desktop.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,

I have used windows 8 for more than year along with start screen, and as for the start menu I have used that for probably 15 years. I am not talking out of rear saying the start menu is better on the desktop.


Funny thing about opinions regarding a ui, people have different ones....

No one is 'talking out of their rear' on this stuff. It turns out some people prefer to use software one way, while others prefer another way.

Ony said,

5.bro u know on the start screen you can just start typing to search right?

^^ THIS. At first I hated the Win7 start menu (skipped Vista) because I had used the hierarchical pop-out type menu for 15 years since Win95. But then I started using the integrated search and since then I have never bothered to use the mouse to go hunting for an app again, ever. The Win8 start screen thus required no change in habits and to me was just a full-screen version of the start menu. I think it all comes down to how you used the Vista and Win7 start menus. If you typed and used the search, it is very unlikely IMO that you'll be opposed to the start screen.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,

I have used windows 8 for more than year along with start screen, and as for the start menu I have used that for probably 15 years. I am not talking out of rear saying the start menu is better on the desktop.

That's your opinion, not fact. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and if they do this both camps will have what they want. Sure it makes MS look stupid, but in the end who cares as long as we have the choice to use what we want?

I like how it's sad news to give your customers options.

Microsoft gave people the option of using the classic start menu back with XP. Over time, the classic option was phased out. I have no idea why we couldn't do that again. It's not like we wouldn't be able to move forward, but at least keeping those less keen to change safe and secure, instead of having them running around retail stores asking for computers with Windows 7 or where they can buy Windows 7. THAT is something I feel to be a big step backwards. We don't need Windows 7 being the next Windows XP after all...

Romero said,

^^ THIS. At first I hated the Win7 start menu (skipped Vista) because I had used the hierarchical pop-out type menu for 15 years since Win95. But then I started using the integrated search and since then I have never bothered to use the mouse to go hunting for an app again, ever. The Win8 start screen thus required no change in habits and to me was just a full-screen version of the start menu. I think it all comes down to how you used the Vista and Win7 start menus. If you typed and used the search, it is very unlikely IMO that you'll be opposed to the start screen.

That's your opinion, not fact. There's no one-size-fits-all solution, and if they do this both camps will have what they want. Sure it makes MS look stupid, but in the end who cares as long as we have the choice to use what we want?

I agree one size can't fit all, Microsoft should have given the user an option in Windows 8 to either enable/disable the new start screen or enable/disable classic start menu. Microsoft has always offered classic UI options in all the Windows and its puzzling why they'd do away with them in 8.

Atomic Wanderer Chicken said,

Microsoft has always offered classic UI options in all the Windows and its puzzling why they'd do away with them in 8.

Either hubris on the part of Sinofsky or someone else, or maybe they seriously overestimated the number of Windows touch devices that people would own by this time (where the start screen does make sense), or perhaps they just felt that they needed to make a clean break with the past and forcibly introduce change or else people would never switch.

Max Norris said,

Doesn't mean they're killing off the new stuff, which I mostly like, just giving an option for those who couldn't bother adjusting it themselves.. IE, they probably wouldn't have bought the new versions anyway. Everybody's (theoretically) happy. Personally I rather like the "front" of the new start menu, it's just the back that's missing a lot of functionality yet.. no jumplists, no nested menus, difficult to rearrange/edit, etc etc.

Except they won't make the start menu an option, it'll be forced on everyone whether we want it or not. I don't want a boring list of all applications installed on my machine, I want live tiles that give me information instead of loading applications all the time to get that same information.

If the luddites had their way we wouldn't be using Windows, we would still be using MS-DOS!!!

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

You need to stop being stuck in the past and accept change you Microsoft hater, the Start Menu is the future of computing.

here is where the problem is. Certain "niche users", "fanbois" hell bent on dictating what everyone else should use or what they should want. I'm not sure where you were when vista and 7 came out and people were into making the OS look and feel how they wanted it. THEN, when people want something else, people are defective or non comformists. All that needs to be said, I don't want people to use Win8/8.1 like I do. Work they way you want. this whole start menu thing is chaffing you because you want to be on the "right side" or "winning side" of a debate so you can sit back smuggly and say, "I told you so!" guess what? that isn't going to happen. I have NO use for the modern UI.. BTW for all you new start menu area lovers.. can YOu get with the program and call it what it really is..Modern UI.. MS named it from the old name to modern due to name copyright issues.. remember? oh.. you don't? you look silly arguing about a feature when you can't even get the name right.

Dot Matrix said,
Sad news. This is why we can't have nice things, if true. Wh bring it back when the Start Screen and WIN+X menus work fine?

But honestly, this makes no sense whatsoever. Continuing to backpedal will do nothing but turn more people away as confidence drops. New changes should be made to carry things forward, not backwards.

Also, what's with running Metro apps on the desktop? A feature like that isn't at all justified with users.

Whatever you are smoking.. I want some. The Start screen is NOT a nice thing, they are not getting rid of NICE things. They got rid of the NICE things when they went from 7 to 8, and now we are getting them back.

Also.. MANY MANY people want metro windows in the desktop. That's why programs like modern mix exist.. and sell well. The top selling programs as of late are Start Menu replacements. I think you have a very clouded view. I know more people that would use 8 if they could have a native start, and run metro in the desktop. The 3 people I know that use 8 all have classic shell installed, and just ignore all metro.

neo158 said,

Except they won't make the start menu an option, it'll be forced on everyone whether we want it or not. I don't want a boring list of all applications installed on my machine, I want live tiles that give me information instead of loading applications all the time to get that same information.

If the luddites had their way we wouldn't be using Windows, we would still be using MS-DOS!!!

The article says "will include the option to restore the Start menu to its full glory".

OPTION
OPTION
OPTION
OPTION
OPTION

Reading comprehension. USE IT.

Stop acting like an hysterical drama queen spreading FUD. THEY ARE NOT FORCING ANYONE.

neo158 said,

Except they won't make the start menu an option, it'll be forced on everyone whether we want it or not. I don't want a boring list of all applications installed on my machine, I want live tiles that give me information instead of loading applications all the time to get that same information.

If the luddites had their way we wouldn't be using Windows, we would still be using MS-DOS!!!

uh.. the start screen is just a list of programs installed.. except in icon (tiny tile) format. I'd rather scroll vertically then horizontally.

firey said,

Whatever you are smoking.. I want some. The Start screen is NOT a nice thing, they are not getting rid of NICE things. They got rid of the NICE things when they went from 7 to 8, and now we are getting them back.

Also.. MANY MANY people want metro windows in the desktop. That's why programs like modern mix exist.. and sell well. The top selling programs as of late are Start Menu replacements. I think you have a very clouded view. I know more people that would use 8 if they could have a native start, and run metro in the desktop. The 3 people I know that use 8 all have classic shell installed, and just ignore all metro.

I'm another one. some are so ham fisted thay have to jam this idea down our throats that their way is the best way or else... makes you wonder about the mental stability of some of humanity.. no,no,no.. YOU will like modern UI or else!!! and they themselves STILL call it metro if they argue, atleast have the common sense to call it what it really is...they just knock themselves out of an argument..

If they included the start menu in the original release of Win8, Win8 would of gotten a lot better sales. Mistake on MS part trying to force everyone to a new way, MS' way, of doing things.

Being able to make apps go in to windowed mode would be nice as well.

I totally agree with you there. Most enterprise admins are not going to go thru the effort to train their employees on Windows 8. They should have made the new interface optional instead. This is good news as this next version will be Windows 7/XP's true replacement.

Yeah, only a few companies can get away with pushing their customers to a new way of doing things without also still supporting the old way or legacy methods.

MS can't get away with that with many of its users, so it seems like they get that. 8.1 did this and the next release sounds like it will do more.

MS got the new stuff out there and now they are adding in the customization options that many users want.

Tegument said,
well then those admins should be fired.

Except it isnt an issue about admins, usually they work from their own systems as there's very (very) little reason to remote into a Windows Server if at all. And on their own systems admins can use and do as they please, no?

Also this is mainly about consumers, cooperate isn't going to migrate to Windows 8 yet (except few here and there), just like cooperate didnt migrate to Windows 7 the moment it was released.
And MS is a strong supporter of backwards compatibility, and they dropped that in a deep hole and kicked people in the nuts. I personally prefer the start screen and outside that hardly use any Modern at all, so that stuff is a non-issue to me. But I do hate the fact they broke out all the classic stuff. Theme, start menu, active desktop (although that left us at Windows 7 already )

Spicoli said,
Windows retail sales are linked to hardware sales. Enterprises don't upgrade until years after a new release. No one really cares about a menu.

I disagree. My work's IT was quick to adopt Windows 7 and still configures machines with 7 (instead of 8). This will be a relief to many IT departments.

Microsoft is so lucky they have absolutely no competition in the Desktop OS arena. Pathetic. Not that I mind the Start Menu, it's pathetic that a company with their resources, complete desktop OS dominance, could execute what has happened from Windows 8 RTM, to now, to go back to the Start Menu in 2015. Just pathetic.

Wait its pathetic that MS would add the option back in?

Some have been demanding this option return since day one and now we get info that says MS is doing that. So now that's a bad thing? If you actually read the original article about this, you might get an idea about MS' plans going forward.

I just don't get it, MS gets creamed no matter what they do. Adding a start menu option does nothing to hurt what they have introduced with 8 and it gives those that want more control over the UI, more control. MS made the hard choice to try a clean slate with Win 8. 8.1 comes along and makes a lot of nice improvements and also trying to add in the ui options that some people want (i.e. boot straight to desktop, changing how the start screen works, control over more ui elements, etc).

Now the word is that 8.2 (or whatever they call it), will at the very least be adding even more UI control for those of us that want it (i.e. enable a traditional start menu, use metro apps in windows, etc). Seems like a natural progression to me. they got the hard part out of the way first, introduce a new UI/core that will allow them to be more flexible down the road with new devices. The key form then on was to aggressively improve and fix any issues. If MS does that, I think it will work out well in the end.

trooper11 said,
Wait its pathetic that MS would add the option back in?

Some have been demanding this option return since day one and now we get info that says MS is doing that. So now that's a bad thing?

No, the Start Menu being in Windows 8, or 15, is not pathetic. Microsoft's poor decision making, execution, and lack of understanding of what users want/need, that put them in this position to have to actually now consider bringing it back, is pathetic.

>>The key form then on was to aggressively improve and fix any issues. If MS does that, I think it will work out well in the end.<<

You know we've been saying this for going on 2 years now right?

MorganX said,

No, the Start Menu being in Windows 8, or 15, is not pathetic. Microsoft's poor decision making, execution, and lack of understanding of what users want/need, that put them in this position to have to actually now consider bringing it back, is pathetic.

>>The key form then on was to aggressively improve and fix any issues. If MS does that, I think it will work out well in the end.<<

You know we've been saying this for going on 2 years now right?

Yeah it is kind of shocking how poorly Microsoft have handled this whole situation. People will say how it is Microsoft "listening to what users want" and that they are "being so humble admitting they are wrong" but that is bull****. These are not mistakes a company in Microsoft's position should be making.

InTheSwiss said,

Yeah it is kind of shocking how poorly Microsoft have handled this whole situation. People will say how it is Microsoft "listening to what users want" and that they are "being so humble admitting they are wrong" but that is bull****. These are not mistakes a company in Microsoft's position should be making.


I dont think Windows 8 and 8.1 are a mistake and many people think the same.
When things change, rather drastically, it always creates people opposing it or supporting it.

And from personal experience (both RL and on the interwebs) is that most people that hate/dislike Windows 8, do so because they heard or read such. Not their own personal opinion. I "converted" several people to Windows 8 from XP, Vista and 7. And they all hated Windows 8, when i asked why, I got stupid answers like "Because of Modern, missing start menu" etc. Give them a few weeks figuring out where the new stuff is 'hidden' or behind, and I haven't heard a single complaint since. I also left behind a classicshell install with complete instructions (granny-proof) and only 1 so far has installed it, and I don't even think he actively uses it.

MorganX said,

No, the Start Menu being in Windows 8, or 15, is not pathetic. Microsoft's poor decision making, execution, and lack of understanding of what users want/need, that put them in this position to have to actually now consider bringing it back, is pathetic.

>>The key form then on was to aggressively improve and fix any issues. If MS does that, I think it will work out well in the end.<<

You know we've been saying this for going on 2 years now right?

Yup, and by the time they "fix" it...if they do...they will be TOTALLY irrelevant in the market.

I have a feeling they aren't really going to "fix" the Modern UI, but I'm just guessing. In 2 years there isn't a single AAA game or application that runs in the Modern UI. Don't get me wrong, MS has made progress. Another year and the Video and Music app may be AAA... but I think it's just more than they can handle. I hooked up some Creative BT headphones to PC for first time, Music app quit, relaunch worked. There's just tons of those kinds of instabilities. I have no idea where MS is going. I think they never should have removed the Start Menu and made it an option, but going back to it now, with WinRT an unstable mess, I truly have no idea where they're going nor confidence they can get there.

TBH, I don't care. Office/Visio/Project are AAA and game devs don't need anything other than an environment to run in. All I need is the Desktop Environment and the Frostbite x64 Game Engine, lol.

The Start Menu will make it easier to pull the trigger on deploying it in the enterprise but I still want to see more direct GPO control of all Modern elements. We also need another 6 months to go full VDI.

Edited by MorganX, Dec 9 2013, 11:31pm :

MorganX said,

No, the Start Menu being in Windows 8, or 15, is not pathetic. Microsoft's poor decision making, execution, and lack of understanding of what users want/need, that put them in this position to have to actually now consider bringing it back, is pathetic.

>>The key form then on was to aggressively improve and fix any issues. If MS does that, I think it will work out well in the end.<<

You know we've been saying this for going on 2 years now right?

and you realize MS has made progress improving 8 over those 2 years right?

Whatever, I'm not going to try to defend what MS has done since 8 launched. Some people think its a complete disaster, some don't, that's it.

I don't know anymore. Maybe MS should just accept the fact that they will slowly disappear with the rest of the desktop market. They simply aren't allowed to operate like other companies and by that I mean try new things, take on criticism and then react by changing how they are doing things.

MorganX said,
I have a feeling they aren't really going to "fix" the Modern UI, but I'm just guessing. In 2 years there isn't a single AAA game or application that runs in the Modern UI. Don't get me wrong, MS has made progress. Another year and the Video and Music app may be AAA... but I think it's just more than they can handle. I hooked up some Creative BT headphones to PC for first time, Music app quit, relaunch worked. There's just tons of those kinds of instabilities. I have no idea where MS is going. I think they never should have removed the Start Menu and made it an option, but going back to it now, with WinRT and unstable mess, I truly have no idea where they're going nor confidence they can get there.

TBH, I don't care. Office/Visio/Project are AAA and game devs don't need anything other than an environment to run in. All I need is the Desktop Environment and the Frostbite x64 Game Engine, lol.

The Start Menu will make it easier to pull the trigger on deploying it in the enterprise but I still want to see more direct GPO control of all Modern elements. We also need another 6 months to go full VDI.


Its hard for MS to start a new platform, just look at Windows Phone. Its been an uphill battle.

If MS wants any hope of making it work, they have to accept slow adoption until they have improved it enough to convince people to give it a try.

Of course like you said, why do you care anyway. You wont be using any of it anyway, regardless of changes. Thankfully, MS still supports a robust desktop ui.

FFS what were Microsoft thinking? A modicum of proper research would have told them what the majority of their paying consumers would accept! Why on earth try and combine a Touch screen OS with a Desktop OS? You're always going to be compromising to one side or the other. Unbelievable in this day and age!

trooper11 said,
Of course like you said, why do you care anyway. You wont be using any of it anyway, regardless of changes. Thankfully, MS still supports a robust desktop ui.

That's part of the problem. I do use it. I'm just ambivalent about it, and often irritated by it's instability. I love the Alarm app and the 8.1 email app is nifty, though it has a significant flaw. Nothing that I "need" to use, uses it. That's a more significant issue really.

I'm good with the Start Menu. There are things it does the Modern UI just cannot do. AS WAM above said, clearly, either not enough research was done, or it was ignored. There's a lot going on inside Microsoft.

It's hard to start a new platform, especially when a dev community can't or won't support what you're doing. Clearly the whole notion that the desktop was nearing it's EOL was a huge mistake. One I believe put forth by Tim Cook of Apple and swallowed hook line and sinker by some very bad decision makers in management at Microsoft.

The good news, 1) People are getting the Start Menu back, maybe. 2) Microsoft has learned they can't just steamroll users into subsidizing what their shareholders want.

MorganX said,

That's part of the problem. I do use it. I'm just ambivalent about it, and often irritated by it's instability. I love the Alarm app and the 8.1 email app is nifty, though it has a significant flaw. Nothing that I "need" to use, uses it. That's a more significant issue really.

I'm good with the Start Menu. There are things it does the Modern UI just cannot do. AS WAM above said, clearly, either not enough research was done, or it was ignored. There's a lot going on inside Microsoft.

It's hard to start a new platform, especially when a dev community can't or won't support what you're doing. Clearly the whole notion that the desktop was nearing it's EOL was a huge mistake. One I believe put forth by Tim Cook of Apple and swallowed hook line and sinker by some very bad decision makers in management at Microsoft.

The good news, 1) People are getting the Start Menu back, maybe. 2) Microsoft has learned they can't just steamroll users into subsidizing what their shareholders want.


Well if you do use it, then I'm sure your hoping it gets improved and more quality apps show up.

I don't think MS ever said that the desktop was at its EOL. That was just wild speculation or claims from the outside.

I think the lesson here is that MS cannot mess with the desktop UI. That environment must remain largely unchanged and anything they want to add to windows must be completely optional.

I also think MS gets this, it just didn't have anyway of doing that properly with Win 8. 8 is a transition product. MS seems to be moving to a single core os that is more modular and able to be used with a different UI depending on the device. Remember, their goal is for a single os that works across phones, tablets, pcs, and the xbox. That doesn't mean you get the same UI everywhere, but it does mean things like apps can move between them and each device can get the UI that works best for it.

So on tablets and phones that means the touch focused metro. On the Xbox that means the 10ft-ui focused modification of metro. On the pc, that means the traditional desktop with a completely optional metro ui for those that are using windows on a convertible laptop, with a touch screen monitor, or to use it a windows media center replacement ui on htpcs, etc.

MS just needs to hurry up and get there so that we can all be happy and not arguing all the time

Shadowzz said,

I dont think Windows 8 and 8.1 are a mistake and many people think the same.
When things change, rather drastically, it always creates people opposing it or supporting it.

And from personal experience (both RL and on the interwebs) is that most people that hate/dislike Windows 8, do so because they heard or read such. Not their own personal opinion. I "converted" several people to Windows 8 from XP, Vista and 7. And they all hated Windows 8, when i asked why, I got stupid answers like "Because of Modern, missing start menu" etc. Give them a few weeks figuring out where the new stuff is 'hidden' or behind, and I haven't heard a single complaint since. I also left behind a classicshell install with complete instructions (granny-proof) and only 1 so far has installed it, and I don't even think he actively uses it.

^This...

Plus, one of the worst things you can do as a parent is to keep putting the training wheels back on after you've taken them off

Shadowzz said,

I dont think Windows 8 and 8.1 are a mistake and many people think the same.
When things change, rather drastically, it always creates people opposing it or supporting it.

And from personal experience (both RL and on the interwebs) is that most people that hate/dislike Windows 8, do so because they heard or read such. Not their own personal opinion. I "converted" several people to Windows 8 from XP, Vista and 7. And they all hated Windows 8, when i asked why, I got stupid answers like "Because of Modern, missing start menu" etc. Give them a few weeks figuring out where the new stuff is 'hidden' or behind, and I haven't heard a single complaint since. I also left behind a classicshell install with complete instructions (granny-proof) and only 1 so far has installed it, and I don't even think he actively uses it.

+1 to this. This is exactly my conclusion too. People just go with the flow and don't bother actually using it themselves and give it a fair shot. If they do try it, they try it for a couple of hours and just give up. It's really not that hard. It went from a little list to being full screen with tiles...oh boy that's so hard to figure out!

Nice that they're listening (finally) to the people who refuse to change it themselves.. although I'd still use ClassicShell's start menu on it myself. Even use it in 7.

I paid $1 for StartIsBack and have been loving Windows 8, now 8.1 since it's release. MS should have given users a choice this time around, but it is still laughable how many "techies" refuse to use Windows 8 because of the Start Menu...rather than just adding it back themselves.

DeaconFrost88 said,
I paid $1 for StartIsBack and have been loving Windows 8, now 8.1 since it's release. MS should have given users a choice this time around, but it is still laughable how many "techies" refuse to use Windows 8 because of the Start Menu...rather than just adding it back themselves.

So-called "techies" refuse to use GUIs and opt for the command line too. This is a step backward.

DeaconFrost88 said,
I paid $1 for StartIsBack and have been loving Windows 8, now 8.1 since it's release. MS should have given users a choice this time around, but it is still laughable how many "techies" refuse to use Windows 8 because of the Start Menu...rather than just adding it back themselves.

I don't refuse to use it, I refuse to buy it. key difference.

TMYW said,

So-called "techies" refuse to use GUIs and opt for the command line too. This is a step backward.

It is clear that you do not have an IT background, real 'techies' use whatever command and control system best suits their needs. For example when automating tasks, it is typically easier to have command line executeables which take parameters prior to execution. This is not a step backwards, this is choosing the most effective way to spend computational cycles.

BradC87 said,

It is clear that you do not have an IT background, real 'techies' use whatever command and control system best suits their needs. For example when automating tasks, it is typically easier to have command line executeables which take parameters prior to execution. This is not a step backwards, this is choosing the most effective way to spend computational cycles.

Have you ever used PowerShell ISE? Using PowerShell command line is a step backward in comparison. There are still some developers who pride themselves on being "hardcore" or "old-school" and use Vim and even Emacs rather than an IDE. This sort of "d1ck measuring contest" for dorks to see who can develop using the fewest of the latest GUI-based productivity features is similar to what's happening with Windows 8 and a more touch-based interfaced.

Latching on the old, tired start menu isn't even being "hardcore" like in the case of Vim or Emacs, so it doesn't even make you "nerdcool" to continue embracing it. It's still just as much a "GUI"-base paradigm as the start screen.

TMYW said,

Have you ever used PowerShell ISE? Using PowerShell command line is a step backward in comparison. There are still some developers who pride themselves on being "hardcore" or "old-school" and use Vim and even Emacs rather than an IDE. This sort of "d1ck measuring contest" for dorks to see who can develop using the fewest of the latest GUI-based productivity features is similar to what's happening with Windows 8 and a more touch-based interfaced.

Latching on the old, tired start menu isn't even being "hardcore" like in the case of Vim or Emacs, so it doesn't even make you "nerdcool" to continue embracing it. It's still just as much a "GUI"-base paradigm as the start screen.

Brad states "whatever command and control system best suits their needs" and you blast him about "d1ck measuring contest". Are you for real?

I think they will reinvent the start menu or add some changes to it before deployment.
It would be of bad taste to simply add the old start menu back.

Decebalvs Rex said,
I think they will reinvent the start menu or add some changes to it before deployment.
It would be of bad taste to simply add the old start menu back.

This is what I think as well, a updated menu that supports live tiles in it for starters.

Astra.Xtreme said,
It does, but it's always nice to have something native. If they bring back the start menu, I may give 8 another shot.

I was a startmenu power user ( almost had no icon on desktop or taskbar) and I got really frustrated with windows 8. However, in 8.1 I got used to it because they changed the search context to include setting and windows services too. so I could just hit start and type program name and hit enter as I used to. additionally right click now has all the good options such as file explorer and shutdown menu. so I am happy now with or without start menu.