The James Webb Space Telescope debacle

[neoadorable]

don't even know what to say to this. if it gets cancelled...that would be huge shame. not to be negative, but what is NOAA doing with their five billion a year exactly? hurricane forecasts? that's not a sarcastic question, it's genuine. i hope the Webb still goes up, we need it.

[Crisp]

When am I going to get my high res shot of Glises 581? Damn it!

[neoadorable]

it's coming...sooner or later you will get it, but it looks like the powers that be demand more patience out of us common folk and space supporters...why this is the case is still beyond me.

[guru]

don't even know what to say to this. if it gets cancelled...that would be huge shame.

+! :( maybe, someone like Paul Allen can sponsor this :/ is tis thing really complicated to make? i'm asking because no other country including Russia seems to put such telescopes into orbit.

[neoadorable]

you're asking all the right questions...i don't know why we don't have answers. it's always about funding, funding, funding...there's simply never enough because space exploration is a low priority, it seems. i think this will change in the coming years, we just need to be patient.

[DocM]

Part of the problem is the technologies involved, many of which are being used for the first time. It's also the first telescope that will have to operate at cryogenic temperatures, about 100? Kelvin (100? above absolute zero), which is -173?C or -280?F. This is what's needed for it to see into deep infra-red and to do this it also doesn't use glass mirrors but highly polished beryllium.

Now add that in order to fit its 8 meter mirror into Arieane 5's satellite fairing the mirror folds up into hexagonal sub-mirrors that are deployed once it's on station, and it has a very large and complex sun shield that deploys and keeps it cryogenic. This shield is gold plated and the size of a tennis court. Actuators, computers, sensors, image detectors etc all had to be designed to work at those temps too.

[guru]

Part of the problem is the technologies involved, many of which are being used for the first time. It's also the first telescope that will have to operate at cryogenic temperatures, about 100? Kelvin (100? above absolute zero), which is -173?C or -280?F. This is what's needed for it to see into deep infra-red and to do this it also doesn't use glass mirrors but highly polished beryllium.

Now add that in order to fit its 8 meter mirror into Arieane 5's satellite fairing the mirror folds up into hexagonal sub-mirrors that are deployed once it's on station, and it has a very large and complex sun shield that deploys and keeps it cryogenic. This shield is gold plated and the size of a tennis court. Actuators, computers, sensors, image detectors etc all had to be designed to work at those temps too.

thanks for that explanation Doc but dont Europeans have Infrared telescope up there? what makes this one soo difficult,expensive and different.

[DocM]

Just for starters;

Herschel is 3.5 meters and covers wavelengths from 6 - 670 um, while JWST covers 0.6 - 28 um. Herschel is also actively cooled using 2,000 liters of liquid helium and when that's depleted it's dead. JWST is passively cooled.

[neoadorable]

thanks for the stats Doc, just hearing you describe it makes me salivate...something the size of a tennis court launched by humans a million Km into space...i get teary-eyed when i think of that. those are obviously very evolved technologies, but really, these guys are all brilliant, they can figure it out.

what's the story with Herschel? how far out is this guy?

[DocM]

The Herschel Space Observatory was launched in May, 2009 to the 2nd Lagrangian point (L2) - 1,500,000 km (930,000 mi) out.

[neoadorable]

wow, that's even further away than the Webb...but the instruments on Herschel aren't as advanced i take it?

[DocM]

Oh, they're very advanced - just different. Herschel has a silicate mirror, not beryllium, and it's smaller. This lets Webb see a different window in the IR spectrum than Herschel and be more sensitive. This different IR window will let it see back into the cosmic dark ages just after the big bang.

Herschel's sensors is also actively cooled by onboard liquid helium wjich eventually depletes. Webb is passively cooled by that tennis court size sun shield, giving it a longer potential life.

[neoadorable]

do either of them carry any traditional cameras that we can look forward to photos from?

[DocM]

M31 Whirlpool

Milky Way galactic center

[neoadorable]

nice pics, is the one below the same galaxy?

[DocM]

Caption above each is the name ;)

Top: Whirlpool galaxy (M51) (typo in pic - wrote M31)

Bottom: Milky Way's core, where the black hole lives (our galaxy)

[neoadorable]

oh yeah missed the captions...our own Milky Way...gotta love her, home sweet home :) of course i'd think twice about giving that supermassive black hole a hug.

[DocM]

Aviation Week....

NASA Estimates $8.7 Billion To Fly Webb

Managers at NASA replanning the James Webb Space Telescope program after an independent cost analysis found it over budget and behind schedule have concluded it will cost about $8.7 billion to finish the telescope in time for a launch in 2018 and operate it at the Earth-Sun L2 Lagrange point for five years.

An agency spokesman said Monday the revised figure ? an increase of $3.6 billion over NASA?s most recent life-cycle-cost estimate for the big infrared space observatory ? includes all development, launch operations and science costs.

Details of how the agency will pay the cost will be covered in the fiscal 2013 NASA budget request now in preparation, the spokesman says.

Work on the telescope has continued since a panel headed by John Casani, a special assistant to the director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory with long experience developing scientific spacecraft, found the $5.1 billion estimate to completion was at least $1.4 billion short. Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) ordered the Casaini study. Mikulski represents Goddard Space Flight Center, where the Webb is managed, and also chairs the Senate appropriations panel that funds NASA.

NASA has made key personnel changes at Goddard after Casani?s group concluded the problem was managerial rather than technical. The telescope will have a 6.5-meter mirror ? comprising 18 individually pointed segments ? positioned at L2 to peer back deeper into the Universe than ever before, using the infrared wavelengths to detect the red-shifted earliest objects that emerged from the so-called ?cosmic dark ages? after the Big Bang.

[vincent]

When am I going to get my high res shot of Glises 581? Damn it!

When you can orbit within 10AU's of it..

[neoadorable]

thanks for the update Doc, good to know JWT isn't canceled or anything and is still on. they can always find the money when they want. heck they found over a trillion to give Wall Street, right?

[DocM]

According to the Federal Reserve audit, the first ever, they gave $16 Trillion to the worlds banks.

[neoadorable]

please tell me that's over the course of US history, or at least since the Fed was established, please tell me this isn't from 2008 till now or something.

[DocM]

$16 T in interest free loans world-wide to banks & governments, all between December 2007 and June 2010. Feeling sick yet?

[spudtrooper]

According to the Federal Reserve audit, the first ever, they gave $16 Trillion to the worlds banks.

The federal reserve has always been audited

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/flaherty6.html

"Since its inception in 1913 the Federal Reserve System has been subjected to a variety of financial and performance audits by Congress, the executive branch, and private accounting firms, although responsibility for this task has shifted from time to time. From 1913 to 1921 the Board of Governors, then known as the Federal Reserve Board which sets monetary policy and regulates the activities of the Federal Reserve Banks, was audited annually by the U.S. Treasury Department. In 1921 Congress created the Government Accounting Office (GAO) and assigned it to audit the Board until 1933. In the Banking Act of 1933, Congress voted specifically to remove the Board from the GAO's jurisdiction. From 1933 to 1952 audit teams from the twelve Federal Reserve Banks performed the annual examination of the BOG's books. From 1952 to 1978, the Board, under authorization from Congress, decided to employ nationally recognize accounting firms to conduct the audits of itself to insure independent oversight. This provided an external evaluation of the adequacy and effectiveness of the examination procedures

not saying its perfect in any shape form or fashion, but its a lie to say its never been audited.. its just been a political game of who controls the audit or requirements thereof..

[DocM]

These were "secret loans" that were not in the normal books subject to audit. When Sen. Sanders said this was the "first top to bottom" audit he meant all inclusive, including the secret books.