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  On 25/06/2011 at 02:52, The_Decryptor said:

If IE6 supported the drafts it wouldn't have been so bad. The problem with old versions of IE is that they implemented things incorrectly on purpose, or implemented things made up by MS (And undocumented half the time) that conflicted with the specs (Up until IE9, IE didn't support the standard means for attaching an event listener in JS, etc.) Edit: And just didn't support things well in general.

Also, there's nothing wrong with implementing draft specs as long as they're prefixed. Browsers actually need to implement the draft specs for the spec to ever be considered stable (You need 2 interoperable implementations shipped). So if the IE team always waits until a spec is "finalised", they'll always be years behind.

An IE version is supported as long as you can run it on a supported version of Windows. The IE team has to let Mozilla/Google/Opera implement things first. Otherwise, companies have to stay on an old version because the spec had breaking changes... :whistle:

PS : Most web developpers hate IE just because it's IE anyway, and don't care about what MS implements. Linear bicolor gradients could be done since IE 5.5 (filter, renamed -ms-filter in IE7), and can now be done using -moz-gradient and -webkit-gradient, but no website does that. (including Neowin...)

  On 25/06/2011 at 08:55, Aethec said:

An IE version is supported as long as you can run it on a supported version of Windows. The IE team has to let Mozilla/Google/Opera implement things first. Otherwise, companies have to stay on an old version because the spec had breaking changes... :whistle:

Or they could just use prefixed properties until the spec is stable. Problem solved!

  On 25/06/2011 at 08:55, Aethec said:

PS : Most web developpers hate IE just because it's IE anyway, and don't care about what MS implements. Linear bicolor gradients could be done since IE 5.5 (filter, renamed -ms-filter in IE7), and can now be done using -moz-gradient and -webkit-gradient, but no website does that. (including Neowin...)

Filters are very much platform specific and have horrible syntax. -moz-[linear-]gradient and -webkit-gradient have easy syntax, work with existing properties like background-image, and work across multiple platforms.

  On 25/06/2011 at 02:52, The_Decryptor said:

If IE6 supported the drafts it wouldn't have been so bad. The problem with old versions of IE is that they implemented things incorrectly on purpose, or implemented things made up by MS (And undocumented half the time) that conflicted with the specs (Up until IE9, IE didn't support the standard means for attaching an event listener in JS, etc.) Edit: And just didn't support things well in general.

This is EXACTLY what's happening now too.. Google has it's own implementation of many things that only work with Chrome. Mozilla has their own way, Opera their own while Microsoft does their own thing.

This is 1990s and IE6 situation all over again. They are not even implementing WebGL because A) It's really not a part of HTML5 spec.. it's basically a sort of a "plugin" that has severe security issues and design flaws and B) Some disable it, some only allow parts of it etc etc.. Everybody integrates how they think is best in their browser.

And those scores and differences in rendering HTML5 show how different browsers are. It's same crap again.

People hate on Flash, but I tell you, all that's happening right now is that we are replacing a PLUGIN that works pretty much the same, independently from browsers to solve MANY issues, while many are wanting HTML5 which is basically taking fragmentation to whole new level. To a browser level. So we are basically replacing a plugin you can turn off, to the COMPLETE browser dependency and how it will render certain things which is one big plugin itself if you want to look at it and ran by corporations that have their own interests in dominating with their own platforms and browsers. If anything, it's WORSE than having a proprietary plugin.

  On 25/06/2011 at 14:44, Elliott said:

Or they could just use prefixed properties until the spec is stable. Problem solved!

How do you prefix Canvas, video, audio, webGL, ... ?

It's quite obvious the WebGL spec will have to change a lot because of the security problems. Which means...if companies use Firefox or Chrome and WebGL in their internal apps, they will be stuck on an old version because the new ones have breaking changes.

  On 25/06/2011 at 14:44, Elliott said:

...

Filters are very much platform specific and have horrible syntax. -moz-[linear-]gradient and -webkit-gradient have easy syntax, work with existing properties like background-image, and work across multiple platforms.

The filter property is a real problem, since it's part of the SVG specification, so Microsoft are going to have to drop the previous version of it (I can imagine the prefixed version going away as well)

  On 25/06/2011 at 15:59, Aethec said:

How do you prefix Canvas, video, audio, webGL, ... ?

It's quite obvious the WebGL spec will have to change a lot because of the security problems. Which means...if companies use Firefox or Chrome and WebGL in their internal apps, they will be stuck on an old version because the new ones have breaking changes.

<canvas>, <video> and <audio> are all tags, and as such don't need prefixing. WebGL is prefixed "experimental", so when you call getContext on a <canvas> tag, you have to pass "experimental-webgl" instead of just "webgl", but when the spec is considered stable that'll change to just "webgl"

And I can't see the spec changing much now, support for shaders isn't going anywhere.

If they maintain support for shaders in WebGL, they're giving Microsoft a good reason not to implement it.

I tried watching a WebGL model..look: http://www.ibiblio.org/e-notes/webgl/deflate/ship.html

That page is more than one megabyte of data, and it's only a ship - it doesn't move, it is not animated, there is nothing in the background... I can't see how downloading tens of megabytes to look at 3D animations in your browser is worth it.

PS: Canvas is not prefixed...well, it looks like it needed prefixing: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components-weblogfiles/00-00-00-92-57-metablogapi/8156.image_5F00_020A4BAF.png .FF 4.0b8 on the left, which renders the same as FF 4 / Chrome 10 on the right (test page: http://flashcanvas.net/examples/dl.dropbox.com/u/1865210/mindcat/canvas_compositing.html ). And that's just one part of the spec, globalCompositeOperation. Here's another one: http://blogs.msdn.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Blogs-Components-WeblogFiles/00-00-00-92-57-metablogapi/6180.image_5F00_thumb_5F00_7E3C8111.png (the test page: http://www.giorgiosardo.com/IE9/Temp/TestShadow.htm )

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